| Author |
Message |
    
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 466
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 4:38 pm: |       |
Hi CB
I just can't go along with Dr. T. being the man known as JTR. No description of JTR placed him taller than 5'7". Dr. T was, and I have checked numerous records on this, between 5'11" and 6'4".
A man of that height would have stood out like a sore thumb in the East End. Speaking of standing out, Tumblety was a flamboyant character who sported a very prominent handlebar mustache. His behavior in desiring to be noticed would run contrary to all known facts about serial killers who need to remain circumspect in their behavior if they do not want to be caught straight away.
Tumblety's homosexuality simply can't be ignored if we are to compare him to other known serial killers who have been gay or pederasts or both. You state that the profilers can be wrong and I agree. However, the question of a serial killers sexuality goes to the very heart of the motivation for a serial killer when it comes to choosing his victims. Serial killers kill the objects of their fantasies. Jeffrey Dahmer killed young men as did John Wayne Gacy. The Atlanta child murderer, Wayne Williams killed young black males. A bi-sexual killer may kill both sexes and the Cleveland Torso murderer may be an example of that fact. Nevertheless his targets were overwhelmingly male transients.
As for the aspect of age, Tumblety was fully 56 years of age in 1888 and he looked every year of it based on a photograph he used on the cover of one of his 'medical pamphlets. JTR when he was seen with his victims under reasonably reliable circumstances was described as being between his late twenties to forty. The description of the man who was said to be forty was the least reliable as he was seen in very poor light from a distance while his back was turned. This individual was said by the witness to be just barely taller than the 5' tall Annie Chapman.
Dr. T. was hunted in America, However recent evidence shows that he was not followed to America in hot pursuit. A detective in the U.S. was alerted as to his presence and was told to check on him.
I just can't reconcile Dr. T with the known facts.
All The Best
gary
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1066
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
G'day Kris,
5:00a.m. was time that Billingsgate started. Joe lost his job there just before the murder of Tabram. Then he became a costermonger of oranges and an odd-job man. But he still would have had to be up and at the markets early, to load his cart and then roam the streets. He didn't have to be working all of the time. He was his own boss most of time until he had a little job for someone. And his earnings were severly reduced.
CB: Yes, I read that Sickert was obssessed with the Ripper. To write a Ripper-letter or two would have been an ideal way to get into the 'mood'. That's what artists are like. And the new 'Impressionist' movement, involved painting life around them,'feelings', 'moods', their impression of life. The old subjects were buildings, religious figures, realistic and 'cold' scenes.
Richard and I wont be claiming that this case is solved! That will always be the readers choice. We just want to push Barnett up on the suspect list. To bring the study back to Whitechapel where it all happened; keep it out of Buckingham Palace, America, France, Battlecrease House!
Since we've been discussing Barnett on these boards, everyone's been focussing on where it all happened.
SUZI: I'd say Joe had some form of work lined up for 'Lord Mayors Day'. (or pretended to have something). They didn't have many chances of drawing big crowds and potentially earning big bucks.
LEANNE |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 267
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:23 pm: | |
Gary--Er. You mention 'flamboyance' being contrary to the killer instinct, but then mention (in another context) Gacy & Williams. Yet these two were known publicity hounds and flamboyant characters. Williams tried to make it in the Atlanta radio scene and sought out the famous. Gacy was a clown who also rubbed elbows in local politics and (not unlike Dr. T) highly regarded his alleged 'connections.' So I guess I have to disagree with the generalization. One could just as easily argue that Tumblety's bizarre over-the-top flamboyance demonstrates a psychological imbalance (which, indeed, it probable does). My feeling? The general rule is that there are no rules. Human behavior can't be pigeon-holed. In JtR we are talking about a very, very rare sort of bird, and it's probably easier to find him than to understand him. Cheers, RP |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 184
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:24 pm: | |
I've always leaned toward the Kosminski/Kaminsky/Cohen/"Polish Jew" theory, after a third reading of Sugden's book I am starting to lean more towards a sailor, in which I case I like Grainger and Anderson (John, not Sir Robert). Unlike most of you I do think that the killer's name can be found in the police files, although perhaps not in the way we might think. Look at the Green River case, for example. Gary Ridgway's name came up fairly early in the investigation but it was only with the advent of DNA technology that police were able to tie him to the murders once and for all. Unfortunately, with so many of the police files either lost of destroyed, we may not have access to those records which could tie all the loose ends together. As Sugden suggested, however, an examination of magistrates' records might be a useful exercise. I don't think asylum records have given up all their secrets yet either. I'm remaining hopeful! |
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 70
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 9:08 am: | |
Leanne,
Point taken. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 431
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 9:29 am: | |
Just throw in my two pence here.
I personally think Joe Barnett is a very likely candidate. He had lost his job just before Martha Tabram's murder so he wasn't going to work and even when he started working again he surely wasn't working all the time as Leanne pointed out.
He was certainly connected to at least one victim personally and possibly connected to another one.
Anyone who lost their job and then starts to lose their girlfriend back to prostitution isn't going to be completely fine by the whole thing. He didn't like prostitution but I feel that with Mary she told him how she didn't want to do it so he took her in and that may be why they moved in so quickly together.
Anyway, I'm just rambling here so I think I'll leave it for the time being.
Sarah |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 471
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:21 am: | |
Hi R.J.
You make a valid point in saying that Gacy did seek the spotlight. I don't think that Williams or Gacy were as flamboyant as Dr.T. Nevertheless I may not have chosen the best examples to illustrate my point in regard to flamboyant gay serial killers. I know Gacy posed for a photo with Roselyn Carter and was active in local politics. I have seen him in his clown suit mugging for the cameras. This is rare behavior for a serial killer of any kind.
I recall Williams as being less of a media hound and more of a perpetual failure at whatever he tried.
Perhaps it bears some significance that these two men were caught while JTR escaped detection. The more reasonable point may be that serial killers who don't wish to be caught should remain circumspect in their behavior. Jack was never caught.
The most important point you make is not lost on me however, never make too broad a generalization, because there are exceptions to every rule.
Thanks for bringing to my attention a logical inconsistency in my post. I will chose my examples more carefully next time.
All The Best
Gary
|
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 170
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:58 pm: | |
Dear Leanne,
I really must take issue with your post of the 14th you state:
GEORGE HUTCHINSON?, GEORGE HUTCHINSON? The guy who crept out of his hiding spot, went to the police station to save the police the time and effort of searching for a short man with a wideawake hat????????????
But he didn't do that did he? He crept out of his hiding place and then THREE days later went to the police AFTER the inquest on MJK was concluded.
Your post gives the impression that he went straight away.
Bob |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 297
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
Bob-
Do you think that if it hadn't been for Sarah Lewis...he'd have gone to the old bill at all|??
Cheers
Suzi |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
hi
i would want to exclude anyone who could not
a be linked to other similar murders
b died after
or c was institutionlised
isn't it true that serial killers dont just stop for no reason (that was a question)?
jennifer |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 299
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Jennifer!
Don't exclude anyone!! I know what you mean by your a,b,c of the serial killer but think that Jack somehow stepped outside of this profile.The invisible man can never be seen..who would you not notice in Whitechapel..a market trader,a coachman,a policeman,a prostitute or just some grubby herbert on the streets..THAT is invisibility!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 347
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 5:50 am: | |
Jennifer
Take a good look at James Kelly (my current no 1 squeeze!)
This is a man who:
- Was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic
- Who we know killed at least one woman
- None of yer poisoners, this man killed with a knife in a violent frenzied attack
- He hailed from Bethnal Green and knew the Whitechapel area well
- He was on the loose in Britain during 1888, and at no other time
The problem is we can't actually place him in Whitechapel. On the other hand we can't actually place him anywhere else either. I accept this as a fairly large flaw in his candidacy, but the five facts above surely mean he has to be given very serious consideration. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 481
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 8:14 am: | |
Hi Jennifer
A number of serial killers have simply stopped for no reason. It seems that age sometimes plays apart and some contend this is evidence of their waning sex drive. Ridgeway, the Green River killer would kill prolifically and then go back for long periods in which he was was not active.
All The Best
Gary |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 199
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
long periods but forever and ever?
i guess there was an obvious one i missed which is if they were incapacitated in some way
but i take your point
jennifer |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:10 pm: | |
Gary,
I don't think a serial killer of this particular kind would stop for no reason. I feel the assaults to be too intense for that to be a realistic option. Like Martin Fido and a number of others, I believe he stopped because he either was incarcerated or died, or just possible moved elsewhere.
-----------------------------------
Alan,
I agree; from those five points you put up, he seems interesting. Too bad we don't know more about him or can place him in Whitechapel; but then we on the other hand don't know an awful lot about some of the others either.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 2:36 pm: | |
Hi Gary, Jennifer, Glenn,
Although, as far as we know, it's not a common thing for (serial) killers to commit suicide, I know of one case in which the (one time) killer tried to commit suicide, but unfortunately failed. Because he failed, he was able to murder a woman in a way and under circumstances similar to Mary Kelly's case.
I've cited this case in the thread "A modern case similar to that of Mary's" under 'General Discussion'. Fortunately, this man was caught some months after the murder, which prevented him from most probably becoming a serial killer. According to Paul Britton, who wrote about this case, the murderer showed signs of paranoia and probably suffered from a mild form of schizophrenia or a similar disorder.
All the best,
Frank |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:15 am: | |
HI gary in regards to you last point casy and williams were caught but by 20 century standards useing 20 century methods I dont understand the Flamboyant reference I am positive that tumblety would not walk around east end like a peacock strutting his feathers I think he would have been smarter then that. Remember when you compare serial killers the police today have more resources available to them and dont underestimate the media coverage is much better today I bet jack would have been caught today and I feel tumblety was noticed by the police. He was picked up. take care. CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
Hi Bob perhapes you can help me out with some information? Were you infering to GEORGE COMEING FORWARD 3 DAYS AFTER THE MURDER OF KELLY ON THE 12TH OR THREE DAYS AFTER THE INQUEST ON THE 15TH? THANKS FOR YOUR HELP TAKE CARE. CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:11 pm: | |
Hi gary just responce to tumblety being to flamboyant to be the ripper I am sure he would try to blend in the east end he would not dress to the nines to go and comitt murder. He was said to be a master of disguise and he was clever enough to give scotlandyard the slip out of liverpool. so I dont follow that line of thinking. your friend CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 7:08 pm: | |
THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY. you make some good points and those are the same arguments that has me wondering. I have gone over it in my head and the only response I have is the colnal. I believe him when he states that tumblety had a hatred of women and a collection of female organs so I have to believe the story he told about tumblety being maried or at least haveing a girlfriend who turned out to be a prostitute who broke his hart and turned him off of all women this might show that he was able to love women at the very least the collecion of female wombs show an unheathy obsessiond with the female anatomy If there was such a women who scorned tumblety it is not uncommon for serial killers to lash out at women who remind them of said person Ted Bundy lashed out at women who reminded him of a women who turned him down in colledge. perhapes in was something like the silence of the lambs perhapes instead of the women skin tumblety he just wanted the organs. In the Pall Mall Gazzett Abberline tells the roporter that most people who claimed to have seen the ripper claim that he was between the ages of 35 and forty. However, They only saw a back view and it is easy to mis judge peoples age from the back Whitch is kind of puzzling because by that statement it would seem that he is dicounting cox Hutchinson as haveing really seen the ripper. The height is another great point And maybe you can help me out I have posted on this subject under movies. I saw the Cain movie jack the ripper and I liked it was suposed to be based on the actual notes of Abberline and the official files and in the movie they make the statement that the ripper was between 5,7 inches tall and 6' feet tall I was wondering have you seen the movie and how accurate was it? There is not much difference between 5'11 and 6' feet tall and keep this in mind the fact that there is such a difference in age and height of different people who claimed to have seen the ripper they all cant be right unless there was two working together. I supose tumblety could have been working with a male companion but that is to much speculation. Like you say you dont want to get caught up in to much speculation there is a great argument to be maid that tumblety was not the ripper but there are some facts that you cant overlook 1. his collection of female wombs as well as other organs.2 his hatred of women.3 his hatred of a particular class of women 4 His many arrest for deviant and antisocial behavior including the distribution of pornoghy Ted Bundy gave an interview the night before his execution were he stated that pornography gave him a low regard for women as a young man. I am not sure but I dont think that male pornogrghy was around in 1888 or at least not common so I am assumeing that tumblety was looking at the naked female form you have to admitt the collection of female wombs is at the least displaing an unnatual obssesion with the female anatomy remember it was not reported that he had male parts. also dispite tumblety being gay and being tall and older then most suspects the police still picked him up 3 days after the kelly murder on complicity in wc murders, tumblety did flee England and he was pursued so the police must have at the very least tought he deserved to have some watch on him. Dont forget he fled newyork too when he learned he was being watched. Why flea at all? I dont know what the sentence would be for gross indeacency. even so why flea newyork? There was nothing the police in America could do they were not going to extridite him for a petty charge.Why use the alias frank townsend? when faced with life in prison for atempting to abort a 17 year prostitutes baby he did not run and in another case he did not run untill after he was found guilty of the wrongfull death of someone in his care so the fact that he ran so quickly from a minor crime as gross indecentcy is strange I think his actions are those of a man who is guilty I DO UNDER STAND YOU POINT AND ALL THE BEST TO YOU GARY. CB |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 8:38 am: | |
I agree mostly with Jeff Hamm. Until one can decide which suspects are Ripper victims deciding on a suspect is fairly pointless - for example, until you have decided which suspects are Ripper victims how do you decide which witnesses are relevant.
There are some interesting possibilities as a result, a relatively obvious one being that the Polish Jew (whoever you believe him to be) was Stride's killer only.
Having said that, of course thare are suspects that interest me and suspects that don't. Francis Thompson I think deserves to be taken more seriously than some of the other celebrity suspects - he was in the area and behaving erratically. Hutchinson and Cutbush are interesting also. Of those who committed other known murders I'd have thought W H Bury and James Kelly deserved a closer look - most of the others in that category seem very unlikely. Buchan's suicide is an interesting coincidence.
But most likely of all I suspect some insignificant loner of a local who has not yet been identified. Such a person would not be totally destitute or obviously insane, perhaps living upstairs in a lodging house where he could not bring in a whole body (or bring home a live prostitute who was never seen again) - but where he could come in at night concealing his bloody hands and trophies under a cloak or overcoat...
Regards
Pete |
RosemaryO'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 6:15 am: | |
Dear RJ,
Neatly put! I see you lean toward David Radka's "centerist" theory...its not the who but the why, in so much as it is the opener-of-the-way
or, a brief moment in the ongoing universal dialectic of 'mankind'. The theory "A.R?" is indeed just such a unique moment in our singular intellectual search for the 'Absolute' known as "Ripperology" :-) I wonder how long David can hold on to the cliff-face by his finger nails. Will he jump or will he fall? No doubt he, as with the rest of mankind, wrestles with that Serpent known as "solipsism"...the confusion of the Idea-of-the-Object with the Object-of-the-Idea
Cometh the hour... Cometh the man?
Rosey :-) |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 2:53 pm: | |
Hi all, The lord Mayor of london offerd a 500pound reward for information leading to the capture of the ripper. The ripper struck on Lord Mayors Day. I was thinking [and I know thats dangerous.] This could show premeditation. The ripper may have picked this day on purpose to strike as way of laughing at the reward offer. It could show a sense of arrogance and flamboyants. Your friend. CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 7:16 pm: | |
Hi leanne thanks for your reply and I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST WITH YOUR BOOK. Take care CB |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 7:23 pm: | |
I'm like a lot of others in thinking that we probably don't have the name of the killer anywhere on most suspect lists. That being said, I think the stronger ones we have heard of would be people like Hutchinson and LaBruckman. Barnett is weak as a suspect, but not impossible (the ridiculous arguments put forward by his most vocal accusers make him sound impossible, but then even people who don't know the first thing about logic or evidence can sometimes stumble across the right answer by sheer accident). |
