| Author |
Message |
    
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 101
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 12:42 am: |       |
Surprised there isn't already a thread with this guy's name on it. I'm quite intrigued by the idea that it was he, not Lawende, who was "Anderson's Witness." His reticence and behavior subsequent to the murder are awfully suspicious, although of course he may have simply feared retribution from an unknown killer, as someone else has suggested in another thread.
And what does everyone make of the Kosminski connection? I know there is no conclusive proof that Aaron and Martin Kosminski were related, but it seems like a rather unusual name, particularly in 1888 London.
Let's see what we can turn up here, shall we?  |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 157
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
Hi Erin
I agree, Joseph Levy is somebody that is worth looking at.
I looked for Martin Kosminski in the 1891 census and found that he was living in the West End of London, so I presume his business had prospered. He was living just of Oxford Street at (curiously) Berners Street. All the members of the family were that that were with him in 1881 except his brother Samual, who was living in Islington, North London.
The only other Kosminski's in the 1891 census were living in Berner Street! whether they were related I doubt but they were Maurice Kosminski a Baker Shop master. His wife Rebecca, son Israel and daughter Becky. Maurice is listed as born in Russian Poland where Martin is listed as Kalisch, Poland.
I could find no trace of Woolf (Aaron's brother)in either the 1881 or 1891 census, but there is a Woolf in the 1901 census, living at 24 Batty Gardens. He is listed as being born in Russia. He is living with his family one of whom (his son) aged 11 was born in Russia, and he had a daughter aged 7 born in London, so it looks as if he came to London between 1890 and 1894. If this is Aarons brother than why is Aaron supposedly known as a Polish Jew? when he might have been born in Russia?
I know none of this is about Joseph Levy, but I was trying to sort out a list of Kosminski's and see if there is some sort of connection between them which looks doubtful.
All the best
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1245
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 5:48 am: | |
Hi Rob
I think that Poland ceased to exist as a country between 1815 and 1918, with large parts of it being absorbed by Russia, so I suppose there'd have been some ambiguity over the words "Polish" or "Russian".
Strange that Martin Kosminski was doing so well in 1891, so soon after going bankrupt. He seemed to have a gift for bouncing back.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 159
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Thanks for the info. I must brush up on some of my history.
I didn't know Martin went bankrupt. It just registered in my mind what a furrier is. May or may not be important.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 6:33 pm: | |
Hi Rob
Martin's bankruptcies are covered in a CTG article in Ripperologist No. 42.
I've an idea that berners were furriers, so that might explain the coincidence of the street name, but strange that he could go up west.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 160
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Thanks for that, not one in my collection though.
Samual is listed in the Whitechapel marrage register for the June quarter 1902, so he still maintained some connection with the area. I don't think he was the one who got married as he was still married to Margaret in 1901, may have been a witness.
I don't suppose anyone would know where Aaron Kosminski was born?
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 7:15 pm: | |
Hi Rob
According to the 1901 census, London Mile End Old Town, but I can't believe that's right. Maybe they put that because he went originally from Mile End Old Town infirmary.
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 392
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
Hi Robert
I believe this has been disussed, but I can't find the thread. Is the 1881 Census now free on-line and if so where can I find it.
Sorry for the Stupid question
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 4:39 am: | |
Hi Gary
The 1881 census is free at http://www.familysearch.org/ This also gives the 1880 Canadian and US censuses. The 1901 census at http://www.census.pro.gov.uk/ is a pay service but will give a fair bit of info for free.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 4:44 am: | |
Sorry Gary that should read 1881 Canadian census.
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 395
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 11:36 am: | |
Thanks Robert
It would be just like those Canadians to be a year behind the times.
All The Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:08 pm: | |
Hi Gary
If you go to the 1901 census and click "useful links" you'll see the 1901 Canadian census, which is apparently free, but only searchable by location, not name.
Robert |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 198
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 10:29 pm: | |
Did anyone ever find out where old Aaron was born?
I thought I read in Sugden's book that his mother and/or brother lived in Greenfield Street, which appears to be quite close to Berner Street. Where was Levy living at the time, and what of the other witness, Jacob Cohen, who gave evidence regarding Aaron's "self-abuse" and unwillingness to work? Has anyone located him? Kosminski is just such an unusual name, I can't imagine Martin and Aaron not being related somehow. There has to be a connection somewhere! |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 7:12 pm: | |
I'm working on it. Hope to publish something soon. |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 227
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 8:36 pm: | |
Im going to attempt to get this thread going again. Ive been doing a lot of reading and research regarding Levy and his peculiar behavior after the Eddowes murder. I am going to go out on a limb and say that my opinion is changing with regard to why his actions were so bizzare. My opinion is that he either recognized the killer or knew him. Im not saying that Levy was necessarily Anderson's witness, simply that he knew a lot more than he was saying. Let me hear from you guys and tell me what your opinions are on Levy and what he may have known. Thanks
Paul |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 12:20 am: | |
Well, the way I see it, there are several possible explanations for Levy's strange behavior, two of which I think are worth exploring in further detail.
The first explanation is fairly mundane, so I'll get it over with first. Levy simply did not want to get involved with the investigation, for whatever reason. Perhaps he really didn't see anything. Perhaps he was involved in some illegal activity that he feared would be exposed were he to cooperate too closely with the police and courts. Or, perhaps he was an illegal immigrant who feared deportation (if they did that at the time, that is). He could also have been someone with an innate distrust of the police. Such distrust is common among those from totalitarian regimes. Finally, as many have suggested, he may have feared retribution from the unknown killer and wanted to protect himself and his family.
Now, the more intriguing possibility (at least from my perspective) is that Levy recognized the man he saw with Catharine Eddowes in Church Passage. If this were the case, however, it presents us with a couple of troubling issues. First of all, who was the man, and how did Levy know him? The man Levy saw was undoubtedly Eddowes' killer. Levy had to have known some of the details of Eddowes' injuries, and he must have heard about the other murders as well (although of course this is just speculation; perhaps he was living in a cave). There was a vicious killer on the loose. I don't know what kind of man Levy was, but how many of us, if we knew we had seen and could identify a vicious killer, would choose not to do so? Who was this man to Levy? A relative? A close friend? Who would be worth protecting? If he knew the man, and, as many have suggested, feared that the killer would come after him (Levy) and his family, why not turn him over to police? If the Ripper were safely behind bars, what did Levy have to fear from him? Unless, of course, he had something to fear from the man's family. I suppose they could have made his life very difficult and perhaps even threatened him. Perhaps he would even be ostracized from the community for turning the man in. Anderson and Swanson said that the witness who identified Kosminski refused to "swear" (which I take to mean testify under oath) that this was the same man he had seen with Catharine Eddowes minutes before she died "because he was a fellow-Jew" and did not want the man's execution on his conscience. Could this also be the case with Levy?
I know, there are more questions than answers here. Unfortunately, until we are able to tie Levy conclusively to Aaron Kosminski, we must be satisfied with speculation. With regard to Joe Levy, we simply don't have much else to go on. |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 394
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 2:58 pm: | |
Erin,
You have raised some interesting possibilities here. My personal opinion is that Levy knew nothing and was worthless as a witness.
Mikey |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 35
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 3:11 pm: | |
I think you're probably right, Michael, but his behavior is nonetheless puzzling. |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 869
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 4:19 pm: | |
In the context of the times Levy"s behaviour is understandable.He would probably have known the police were watching his club closely and just on that he may have felt unhappy to get involved knowing that he would be interviewed by the police etc.
He may well have recognised the suspect that night
and been even more unhappy to get involved for all or any of the reasons which have been discussed on this thread and on others recently.
But I think people underestimate the particular dread many people have ofbecomimg involved in a highly publicised murder hunt.It may be because they fear someone will come after them next thing
for giving evidence against them.All sorts of fears may surface for the safety of their families ,job,whatever.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2486
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
Re the police watching Levy's club, I don't see why they should have been doing this, if in fact the club was a conservative Jews' meeting place.
Robert |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 246
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 9:47 pm: | |
Hey Everybody,
Erin, Nat, Robert...you all bring up good points.
With regard to Levy...As you said Natalie, His behavior might indicate that he knew or recognized the killer, which would mean that the killer(or alleged killer) was PROBABLY a Jew...and I say probably, meaning that most Jews in those districts hung out with mostly Jews, worked with mostly Jews, etc.
I just have a gut feeling that he knew something. But that is just conjecture..Best regards.
Paul |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 870
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 1:14 pm: | |
Hi All,I cant find the reference Robert but have seen it stated in one of the books that the police did keep a watch on Mitre Square because of its association with varios political activities.I do know that you are right in thinking that the big synagogue there was conservative by comparison to the Berner Street club but there was regular correspondence between the two places about the sweatshop workers and demonsrtations that began at the International Working Mens Club and ended at the Great Synagogue in Mitre Square.
I agree with you Paul-its conjecture but it fits with him acting oddly.
Best Natalie |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:39 pm: | |
Glad to have apparently stimulated reasonable discussion here along the lines of Levy recognizing the man in Duke Street. I will be posting more in the A?R thread on Levy soon, as I respond to a long list of back questions.
David
|
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 37
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 2:50 pm: | |
Sorry to disappoint you, David, but I started this thread back in November.
I'm unclear what club Levy, Lawende, and Harris were leaving when they spotted Eddowes with the Ripper. Robert, you indicated that it was a "conservative Jews' meeting place," can you go into a bit more detail on that? I'm not disputing you at all, I simply don't know.  |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 791
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 3:03 pm: | |
Hi
Right Joseph Hyam Levy was a butcher(!) the club he was in was The Imperial Club in Duke St with Joseph Lawende and Harry Harris,it was these three who saw(!) the man and the woman (Kate?) with her hand on the mans chest etc etc in Church Passage carry on
x Suzi
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2493
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 3:51 pm: | |
Hi Erin
I'm not sure precisely where the Imperial Club stood politically. But there seems to be an idea on the Boards that the Imperial Club was fairly conservative when compared with the International Working Men's Club, which made me wonder why the police should have been watching the Imperial Club.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 874
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 4:59 pm: | |
Hi Robert,I still havent found the reference I was looking for regarding the Imperial club but I"m reasonably certain the police kept watch on it for political reasons.It was the Great Synagogue nearly next to it where the more religi
ous,conservative,settled and sometimes rich Jews went and which would have therefore been less threatening to the authorities I would have thought. |
hemustadoneit
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 9:33 am: | |
Hi Natalie,
See the dissertation on this board:
Shrouded in Mystery : Stephen White, Amos Simpson and "Catharine Eddowes' Shawl"
By Andrew L Morrison
That may be what you were thinking of as it contains some references to police possibly posting a watch on the Imperial Club at the time JtR happened to strike.
Cheerio,
ian
PS Did you manage to upload any of your art? Which thread?
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 875
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Cheers for that Ian-will do.I knew it was around somewhere.I have already posted some of it on the Creative Writing and Expression thread,then see Art Whitechapel[around March.I now have four more Christchurch,Millers Ct today and ...,Bucks row,
and just finishing the Berner Street one[featuring the International Working Mens Club]
I"m off to Rome tomorrow and back Saturday when I"ll post these new ones.
Best Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 877
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 3:45 pm: | |
Hi Ian,yes thats where I read it -thanks a lot for reminding me.
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 808
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
Hi Nats!
Hope you had a good Rome!!!!!
Spooky eh am working on a Millers Ct today too....just come back from two days in the smoke!
Hope you're good
Cheers
Suzi |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 3:12 pm: | |
I've found that it's likely that Joseph Hyam Levy's wife, Amelia, was the niece of Mary (nee Barnett) Lyons, who traded as an orange merchant at #30 Mitre Street from the early 1880s until 1889. Mary was the sister of a dairyman, Isaac Barnett, who lived at #87 Middlesex Street in the 1880s to 1890s. Isaac Barnett was recorded under the "address of friends" entry in the Stone Lunatic Asylum casenotes for Jacob Levy, an insane butcher, who was brought there on August 15, 1890 (later information in article of Jacob Levy by Mark King-see Suspects on this site.) |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 8:04 am: | |
I have long thought that J H Levy would be Number One on my list of people to go back an talk to, if I ever find that time machine!!
I may be out of touch with the latest research and thinking, but do I not recall him as being reported as seeming to know more than he told; and also as being on record as a charcater referee for a member of the Kosminski family? On that basis, I think he has some claim to be Swanson's witness who would not testify.
But what were he, Lawende and their companion doing wandering about Whitechapel in the small hours of the morning. was this customary? Did relatively (very?) respectable Jews wander around in the early hours often? Were they sober? How safe would they have seen themselves as being?
This last point reflects an interest in mine about the rythmns of life in the east end of the 1880s. We are accustomed to the hours between midnight and dawn (in the Uk at least) as being quite quiet in most areas in 2004. But the Whitechapel of 1888 seems to have been pulsing with life at all hours - with people popping out for food, seeking clients or street-walkers, or as in Buck's Row, setting out for work. How many people were on the street at the time might have considerable bearing on what Levy and his companions saw and how they interpreted it. Their own lifestyles (were they usually up until such an hour, how tired were they etc? might have a bearing on their evidence too.
Sorry, random thoughts at the end there,
Phil |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
Mr. Hill wrote:
1. "I have long thought that J H Levy would be Number One on my list of people to go back an talk to, if I ever find that time machine!! I may be out of touch with the latest research and thinking, but do I not recall him as being reported as seeming to know more than he told; and also as being on record as a charcater referee for a member of the Kosminski family? On that basis, I think he has some claim to be Swanson's witness who would not testify."
>>Levy signed Martin Kosminski's naturalization certificate several years before the Whitechapel murders took place. While there is no doubt of this information on the one hand, Ripperology seems to be of two minds concerning any connection between Levy and Aaron Kosminski. The right wing, led for the most part by Scott Nelson and Paul Begg, reminds us that Kosminski was not a common name in Whitechapel, and seeks to establish family and census information regarding possible relationships or connections among a number of people on the two sides of this equation. Given the nature of the Duke Street sighting, any empirical connection would fundamentally and decisively effect interpretation of the case evidence. The left wing, led for the most part by Stewart Evans and Philip Sugden, views the statements made by Anderson and Swanson concerning the identification as either unreliable or outright lies. Since the witness identification depends on what they said, and what they said is deemed not worthy of consideration, then any connection between Levy and the Kosminski family, including Aaron, would be deemed moot. My position is that an empirical connection, if someday shown, would indeed be crucial to interpretation, but it is not a necessity. The case evidence available today, taken as a whole, indicates that Levy was Anderson's witness, and that he lied to Anderson, identifying Aaron as the man he saw in Duke Street, in order to extricate himself from the control of the real murderer.
2. "But what were he, Lawende and their companion doing wandering about Whitechapel in the small hours of the morning. was this customary? Did relatively (very?) respectable Jews wander around in the early hours often? Were they sober? How safe would they have seen themselves as being?"
>>They were not wandering about. They had just emerged from the nearby Imperial Club at closing time, which catered to Jewish businessmen, and were headed home past the Great Synagogue. Levy at least was very experienced in the area, having courted his future wife in the near vicinity. While few people could consider themselves safe at night in Whitechapel, three men walking together, experienced in the neighborhood, would feel safe enough. It is not known how intoxicated they might have been, but it can be reasonably inferred they likely would have taken some alcohol while at the Imperial Club.
|
A. R. Ationalist
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 5:31 am: | |
Is 'Radka World' similar to 'diary world' or is there a difference? Both seem to change the facts to suit their own ends. Will there ever be a Radka book or will it not be published as a full-length version has already appeared elsewhere on these boards? Why is it that these fanatical supporters of odd theories and ideas are always so aggressive and disparaging of others? They seem like a breed apart. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:08 pm: | |
Mr. Ationalist wrote:
"Is 'Radka World' similar to 'diary world' or is there a difference? Both seem to change the facts to suit their own ends."
>>How specifically do I "change the facts to suit my own ends?" Write several instances down so that I might have a chance to defend myself, please.
|
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:20 pm: | |
Mr R - It was a saturday night was it not, the end of the Jewish Sabbath. So, if relatively orthodox Jews, the three men would not have left home to go to the Club until after sunset.
Do we know whether men of their race and class observed their religiious customs in the Whitechapel of that era?
As for "wandering about" I used the term loosely - they were I assume going to their various homes. My question, which you ignore (while giving me volumes of your own theory) was a genuine - and I think germane - one. Do we know how common it was for men as well-off, and presumably well-dressed, to be around in the small hours?
secondly, would they have drunk alcohol, after sunset on the sabbath. Three tipsy witnesses, supporting each other, are a different kettle of fish to three sober ones.
In dress, by the way, they might well have been relatively close to that described by Hutchinson in relation to MJK's death. A hat, fur collared coat, darkish clothing, rather ornate jewellery might have been exactly what a Jewish merchant or tradesman would have work in 1888.
Thanks for taking the trouble to respond to such a new and unpromising newcomer,
Phil |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 10:01 pm: | |
Ms Severn wrote:
"I do know that you are right in thinking that the big synagogue there was conservative by comparison to the Berner Street club but there was regular correspondence between the two places about the sweatshop workers and demonsrtations that began at the International Working Mens Club and ended at the Great Synagogue in Mitre Square."
>>I hadn't noticed this before, Natalie. It strikes me now that if (1) there were regular correspondence between these two places, and (2)the Ripper commits a murder at each of these places on the same night, then there is further reason to believe that the Berner Street murder was planned for the IWEC, and not a random event as commonly thought. Could you please speak a bit more on this topic? Thanks very much!
David
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:00 pm: | |
Hi David,I got the information partly from reading the Jewish Chronicle material on this site
and partly from reading about the demonstrations that were being staged by the members of the IWEC
to improve the wages and conditions of the [mainly Jewish]workers in the Sweatshops.
The problems arose between the settled respectable Jews who had built a number of Synagogues,The one at Mitre Square being the Grandest I believe and run by Orthodox and rather conservative Jews[I seem to remember Samual Motague liberal MP being a prime mover in all this colluding with the authorities to deter such demonstrations and the less settled Jews from Eastern Europe/Russia/Germany who were involved with The Berner Street Working Men"s Education Club and were becoming more radical by the day.
Some were socialists some were anarchists although not actually of the bomb throwing kind I must hasten to add.Such luminary middle class persons as William Morris,leader of the Pre-Raphael movement gave weekly lectures to Berner Street club members.George Bernard Shaw is also believed to have given talks there aand Annie Besant-too of Bryant and May fame.
But there were many such clubs sprouting all over Whitechapel as well as the famous Toynbee Hall.
But I dont actually think there were others with quite such radical Jews as there were at Berner Street ready to take on their Orthodox elders with such determination.
Sorry I cant be more detailed and cite better references but its getting late here so I"m a bit tired.
Best Wishes
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3656
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:35 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
Prince Kropotkin once spoke at the Berner St club.
According to one book, it wasn't much of a leap from exploited sweatshop worker to heartless capitalist - it was fairly easy to rent premises and set yourself up as a sweatshop employer. Thus you could go from one class to another overnight.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 6:13 am: | |
Hi Robert,well one things for sure the time was certainly ripe for such opportunism-or,if you prefer "enterprising spirit".A study of the career of John McCarthy,Mary Kelly"s "Rachmanite"
landlord of the 1880"s reveals a fair bit of potential among those who were inclined to prefer to exploit others to advance themselves economically rather than co_operate with each other to try to improve life for everyone.
Best Natalie |
Adam L. Silverman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 12:23 am: | |
If I remember correctly the synagogue was a Sephardic (Spanish/Portuguese) one. The congregation is still in existence, in fact it can be toured if one is in the East End, though I don't recall it being in the original location. The rabbi there at the time was named Abrams, there is an "In Memoriam" plaque to him still in existence in the main sanctuary. Rabbi Abrams was from a family of rabbis and Judaica scholars that had been in that community for some time. Some of the family relocated to Australia, some to the US. It might be worthwhile for someone in the London area to contact the congregation, as well as the Jewish College (I've not been since I was a postgrad in Scotland in the 90s) in Golders Green (not sure I spelled that correctly), and see if either locale has any diaries or journal material from either the rabbi or members of the congregation about what was going on. It may be that those within one of the "suspect" communities had some useful insight into the events you are interested in. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1301
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:27 pm: | |
Thankyou Adam for such a helpful post.After the holiday I will certainly try to track some of your information.
Best Wishes
Natalie |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:06 pm: | |
Natalie,
By all means, please let us know what you find. Thank you.
David
|
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 499
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 1:53 pm: | |
The theory that both the International Working Mens Club and Mitre Square (ie., near the Great Synagogue ) were specifically chosen by the murderer in order to implicate the East End Jews was actually a contemporary theory, voiced by Sir Charles Warren in 1888. (See Evans & Skinner).
In regards to Levy, I find Mr. R's reference to the 'right wing' a little puzzling. Paul Begg 's new book makes no mention of either Levy-as-witness, nor Martin Kosminski, and his current thinking seems to associate Anderson's witness with Schwartz.
(Message edited by rjpalmer on December 16, 2004) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1309
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 5:51 pm: | |
Hi RJ,thanks for the information about Warren"s thinking.I suppose the ripper could have had such intentions.Its also the case that both Elizabeth Stride and Kate Eddowes are said to have cleaned for Jewish families,Elizabeth apparently bothering to learn Yiddish.There was also the traffic going on between the IWEC and the Great Synagogue-highly political and causing concern to both the Jewish elders and Warren and the Authorities.
Its strange about these two women,having had these alleged associations with Jewish households
too- makes me wonder if indeed they could have been targeted for reasons we dont yet understand.
Then we have the Jewish men who either found one of the bodies in his yard[Diemschutz] or were witnesses[Levy & co.].
Last but not least the piece of Kate"s apron found in the entrance of a Jewish tenement under the writing that referred to Jews[whether it was written by the killer or not ]it does seem as though
some "message" was intended for "onlookers" such as Warren -who promptly browned his long Johns and ordered its instant removal!!!!!!
Curiouser and Curiouser!The ripper looks as though he may have been kept busy following a variety of "commands" from the unseen powers!!!
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 2:25 pm: | |
I noticed the absence of reference to Martin K in the last book. Have there been developments? Does anyone know?
Levy continues to fascinate me though, given the press comments at the time. the link to martin seemed really a lead worth following...
Phil |
ARR
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 5:33 am: | |
An interesting post by R. J. Palmer. He comments that Paul Begg's 'current thinking' (I suspect that he has thought this for quite some time) is that Anderson's witness was Schwartz rather than Lawende (or Levy). Also interesting as the new Begg book was supposed to be fact and not contain speculation. Clearly this is speculation. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 6:36 pm: | |
Mr. Palmer wrote:
"In regards to Levy, I find Mr. R's reference to the 'right wing' a little puzzling. Paul Begg 's new book makes no mention of either Levy-as-witness, nor Martin Kosminski, and his current thinking seems to associate Anderson's witness with Schwartz."
>>Have you found where Mr. Begg specifically says the witness couldn't have been Levy, Mr. Palmer? Or are you merely trying to force an interpretive change on Mr. Begg? Mr. Begg has offered Schwartz as an alternative to Levy before, including on this web site, because it provides a more solid basis for believing in Anderson and Swanson, suspecting that Aaron Kosminski killed Stride. You get more reconciliation of evidence at a lower price of assumptions if you think of Schwartz as Anderson's witness. But I wouldn't think that we could say Mr. Begg has changed his mind about Levy until we hear him say as much.
|
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 500
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 2:34 pm: | |
Mr. Begg has offered Schwartz as an alternative to Levy before...
Very amusing, Mr. R. So now you're suggesting that Schwartz is merely an 'alternative' to the Levy theory? No, I wouldn't want to force an interpretive change. That's true. I certainly have no idea what speculations may or may not be going on in private. I only reflect on the fact that in the public world of Mr. Begg's new book the identity of Anderson's witness is discussed at considerable length, and there is not a peep about Levy. I await further enlightenment.
A smallish comment. Uncensored Facts mentions the curious detail that Donald Swanson added the name of Francis Coles to his list of Ripper victims. A bit problematic considering that the murder took place after Aaron Kosminski's confinement. I'd be curious to know if you propose to reconcile this minor but puzzling detail to the Marginalia or to the A?R theory. RP |
