| Author |
Message |
    
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2686
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 3:53 pm: | 
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Another great picture, Rob.
What an atmosphere!
Is any of the two streets above Duval Street?
All the best
G, Sweden
P.S. Robert L. and Lyn: Thanks all of you.
(Message edited by Glenna on January 04, 2005)
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 387
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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Hi Glenn
Duval Street is the one to the right. The building to the left with the railings is the Crispin Street Night Refuge. The pub on the corner is 'The Horn of Plenty'.
The photo was taken about 1912.
I thought I posted this photo before but I can't remember where.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2687
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 4:10 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
Yes, I pretty much figured that Duval Street must be the one going to the right; I just wasn't sure. Nice with the "Horn of Plenty" as well...
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 175
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Rob,
I love this photo! As Glenn says, what an atmosphere! Definitely worth printing and framing for my living room wall.
Thanks!
Lyn |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3758
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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OK, Rob. That's a good picture too.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1382
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Fabulous pictures Rob,I only just saw the one of Crossinghams Lodging House-terrific!Also this last
a beautful photograph!
Glenn----your photos are great-whats the problem?
Natalie |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 725
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
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Okay, if we're all at it - here's mine!
Spitalfields Market
Spitalfields Church
Swallow Gardens. I believe the entrance to the tunnel in which Frances Coles was found is the nearest of the three large arches, although if someone could confirm that it would be good!
To the best of my knowledge, this building is the former Bricklayers Arms outside which John Best and John Gardner ran into Liz Stride and a gentleman on the night of her murder.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Kitty
Inspector
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 153
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 3:07 am: |
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Lovely to see some sincere London based research, Rob, and helpful to everyone. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 388
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 4:02 am: |
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Thanks Kitty.
Alan, Swallow Gardens is to the far right at the edge of your photo
I am 99% certain it is this one, but I ran into a little snag. I am going to try and confirm the actual location in the next month.
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2690
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 5:35 am: |
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Alan,
Great pictures.
And Rob, interesting as usual.
That place sure doesen't look like a million bucks... Brrr...
Seems like it's been rebuilt a bit in modern times, though, in some parts.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 730
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 5:57 am: |
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Thanks for that Rob. I was working from a map I have which shows it to be the leftmost of three passages with another narrower passage to the left, so this looked like the obvious location to me. Thing is, I'm not entirely sure where I got that map from any more, its an old and battered photocopy! Anyway, I was just looking through the Swallow Gardens thread under Frances Coles and your location looks much more logical.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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DARK_INTENT
Police Constable
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:50 am: |
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Robert/Alan
The location you have for Swallow Gardens doesn't look familiar. I was there in 2002 and include some photos. Apologies for the quality as I only had a tiny pocket camera with me on the day.
Looking out - Royal Mint Street end
Looking out - Chamber Street end
 Looking down Swallow Gardens from Royal Mint Street end
In the second photo you can see how small the entrance from Chamber Street is. It is very easily missed and took some finding in 2002.
The third photo gives some perspective on the layout. The body was found at the end of this shot beyond the third light. At this point the passage takes a dogleg towards the Chamber Street entrance as shown in the second photo. Note that the passage has been divided by two walls which I don't believe would have been the case at the time of the murder. It would also have been pitch black with no lighting at that time.
I strongly doubt whether Frances Coles was a victim of Jack the Ripper or Thomas Saddler. It's worth noting (although often missed) that the murderer had departed (although heard) walking into Royal Mint Street, before Constable Thompson found the body. In other words there was no intention to mutilate beyond the cut throat. It seems far more likely that this was a simple robbery of a drunk and vulnerable street walker, which went too far. Maybe she put up a fight?
Although probably not a JTR scene, this location is pretty spooky and on a par with Nichols murder site. I'm not easily unnerved, but I have to say both these locations (unlike any of the rest), at dusk, made my skin crawl.
All the best.
D_I |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
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I don't believe this! I had uploaded over a dozen shots and hit a wrong button and wiped the lot!!! DAMN IT!!!
Now, start again...
I have the rare 'Spitalfields Nippers' book, so if anyone wants to see the other shots let me know and I will upload them. They are all similar.
This is the right place to upload all my shots of the more obscure sites I've yet to see on here in some cases...
Thrawl Street Arch
Site of George Yard Buildings 2004
George Yard Buildings 1967 (for comparison - thank you Stewart!)
Site of 13 Miller's Court - with the shutters open!!!
Remains of Gun Street (not Clay-pipe's part, I'm afraid, though)
Site of 29 Aldgate High Street (the '33' sign marks the spot)
Modern 8 Whites Row (please tell me it was on the same spot!)
Angel Alley
Batty Street
Old Castle Street / Castle Alley
Osborn Street / Wentworth Street junction (Smith's assault was in front of what is now the large light grey building)
The Frying Pan Inn
Mulberry Street
Pinchin Street
Swallow Gardens (Yes folks, it does still exist and the public can still walk along it; it is just VERY well hidden! Previous postings of the location have been, sadly, wrong! The damp patch in the middle marks the site of the Coles murder)
Thrawl Street as it is today
And finally, me doing my Ripper tour last year - I've posted this as I have a question. I am assuming this stub of wall I am pointing to is actually a scant remain of George Yard Buildings. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?
My registration form has been sent to Steve so hopefully soon I will be a real live boy! |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
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Dark Intent,
Thanks a lot for the photos.
---------------------------------
Philip Hutchinson (I nearly called you George... sorry...), 
Thanks a million for those interesting pictures.
This stuff is worth gold for people like me who for obvious reasons can't just take the occasional stroll down East End one afternoon. And I like that "old versus new" picture comparison method. It's really amazing that George Yard buildings existed as late as 1967.
Can't answer your question, though -- sorry.
Good luck with the registration, Philip, and welcome.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
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To Dark Intent and Philip Hutchinson
Thankyou both for the stunning photos!
Alan-Splendid those!
Have very much enjoyed looking at these!
Thanks again everybody!
Natalie |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 422
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
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Yes, thanks to all for the photos! They're great!
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 389
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Hi Philip, Dark Intent
The photos you claim are Swallow Gardens are actually a passage leading from Abel Buildings. The map below is a large scale plan of the area from 1894 and gives the exact location for Swallow Gardens. the arrow marks the passage where you took your photos.
All the best
Rob |
DARK_INTENT
Police Constable
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 3:38 pm: |
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Folks
I think we have a serious problem when it comes to identifying the correct location for Swallow Gardens. When I visited and took photographs in 2002 it was on the basis of using a map I'd found. (If only I could locate it now!)
Having looked at the Victims/France Coles/Swallow Gardens board I see a map indicating (in blue) not only that what I believe to be Swallow Gardens is apparently not, (later identified on a similar map as 'Abel Buildings') but also (in red) a different location for Swallow Gardens.
Whilst I don't buy the 'red' location, it has now caused me to doubt the 'blue' location somewhat. To illustrate my point I going to take a liberty and reproduce bits of those earlier posts here (my apologies to the orginal posters)
I've amended the map to show a third location (in pink). Note where the row of houses ends on the map.
Now lets look at this segment of the Illustrated Police News from 1891. Note again where the row of houses ends in this drawing.
Finally lets look at some images from Robert Clack (apologies for reproducing here) of the 'red' location from Chamber Street. Note once again where the row of houses ends on the lower of these two pictures.
This throws doubt on my location (blue - possible Abel Buildings), but also on Robert's (red) but doesn't prove that my postulation of another location right next to the end of the row of houses (pink) actually exists. It could however be the first (or smallest arch) on this picture by Alan Sharp which is very close to the end of the row of houses - not shown (again my apologies for reproducing here). This could look wrong because it has been built on to extend the storage space and the arch we see is not the original entrance.
Incidentally it's not possible that the houses came up to the 'red' location at one time, because the space tapers away to preclude this. I did think it was possible that further houses were added later which might bring the 'blue' location back into play, but this is only a guess.
Confused? I certainly am!
Anyone got any ideas?
D_I
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DARK_INTENT
Police Constable
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Robert
Further on your last post - excellent research, but whilst I think my photos are probably wrong (i.e. Abel buildings) I think despite your map from 1894, your location for Swallow Gardens is also wrong. The topography just doesn't fit (see my last post for details).
I have come up with a possible reason for this, which wouldn't necessarily mean that the 1894 map was wrong.
If we look at the below (somewhat indistinct)extract from Greenwood's Map of London (1827) it appears that Swallow Gardens was in fact quiet extensive at that time, although it may have altered as time went on. Notice how the name is written across a large area in the centre rather than along a particular concourse
I believe that the name Swallow Gardens referred to the spaces between Chamber Street and Royal Mint Street as well as a number of entrances/exits to that space, one of which was by the row of houses, another was as indicated by yourself/the 1894 map and there were some others too. This also explains a problem I had getting my head around the fact that a place with no dwellings opening onto it was called Swallow Gardens. If we look at the Greenwood's map it is clear that dwellings would have opened on to it. Of couse what we see today is very different, but I think there is a lot more we can learn about the topographical layout of this area in 1891.
It would also make for a good place for prostitutes to take clients as it was probably pretty dark with lots of niches etc. Also the sort of place JTR favoured, although I don't think this was his work.
If we look at the Illustrated Police News, I believe that this is correct and the murder location is inside the arch shown right next to the row of houses.
D_I
P.S. I can't make out in the map above whether the name is 'Swallow' or 'Sparrow' Gardens. There seems to have been confusion about this at the time as some of the press (e.g. the Illustrated Police News) referred to 'Sparrow' Gardens. I will post an enhancement of the name shortly. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 391
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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Hi Dark Intent
I posted a reply in the Francis Coles, Swallow Garden thread as it seemed more appropriate there
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 164
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:32 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
A while back you posted a map of the Sion Square/ Plummer's Row area. I believe this is the ordinance map, but I dont know what year... Could you possibly re-post that map without the overlay showing the location of the modern buildings? I want to get a better idea of the layout of Sion Square.
By the way, good job on the Swallow Gardens stuff. That was very helpful.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 395
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 3:44 am: |
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Hi Robert
The Map I used for the overlay was the same one I used for Bucks Row. Its an 1894 Ordnance Survey Map. You might be able to pick up copies on Ebay. The full map title is 'Whitechapel, Spitalfields & Bank 1894.
All the best
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 165
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Thanks again Rob,
I now see that I was wrong in my earlier impression of where Sion Square was. This is really the fault of the map I have been using, which is from the 1850s and is not really very accurate. Sion Square was the square off the east end of Union Row (Now Mulberry Street?). I have highlighted the area from your map in yellow. Also, my map is on the right. I think this would have been about in the middle of the lower photo, which is modern day mulberry street, looking east. This street was rather short, if I remember correctly.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 396
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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Hi Rob
That's where I would have guessed Sion Square to have been when I was there.
And Union Row is now Mulberry Street.
I haven't come across any old photos of Sion Square or Mulberry Street, but I'm keeping my eyes open.
Rob |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 7:30 am: |
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I too have a copy of this map. They only cost £4, are fairly large and I totally recommend them to everybody! |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
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Hello again everyone. One day closer to getting my password and instant postings!
I've been accrueing (is that the correct spelling?) a few postcards of the area and a couple of other interesting ones and thought I'd post them now. It gives you a good idea and feel like plenty of the other shots on this thread over the last couple of years.
Firstly, a few shots of Petticoat Lane...
The next 2 came from the same series. The first one has on the back 'Supposed to be the cleanest street in Petticoat Lane'.
And this one, placed elsewhere on the site, is a beauty! It is actually of Goulston Street itself and you can see Wentworth Model Dwellings in the background. On the back is written 'Some bargains here'.
I found this one on eBay last night (being sold for a silly sum) but it shows Liverpool Street station (just around the corner from the heart of Spitalfields, of course) at the turn of the 1900s.
This is a little gem as well. It shows the pump at Aldgate, just on the junction where Fenchurch Street, Leadenhall Street and Mitre Street all meet. It's still there today looking exactly the same, but of course the old buildings have long gone! The text at the bottom reads 'The Pump, Aldgate, London. Over 400 years old and still in daily use, and in hot weather a continuous stream of lads may be seen slaking their thirst'.
Here's a nice early view of New Scotland Yard...
One of Newgate just before demolition...
And, from the same angle, the Old Bailey (the lines are supposed to be there as they are cables). This postcard is dated October 27th 1910 and finishes 'This is where Crippen was tried last week'!
Phew! That was a lot of work!
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 737
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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But well worth the effort!
Cheers Phil, those are fabulous.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2718
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
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My God, Philip!
Indeed great stuff.
Thanks a lot. Gives one a great feel of the times and the area. Just look at the people...
Beautiful.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 398
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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Hi Phillip
Great stuff, love the old photos.
This is Gunthorpe Street about 1990, the building is unfortunately gone,
And a couple from 'The People of the Abyss'
Spitalfields Market
And the earliest photo I know of 'The Ten Bells'
This is the 'Thames Police Court' Arbour Square.
Rob |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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Rob - going up Gunthorpe Street as I do a few times every week and recognising the block beyond in Wentworth Street and seeing it in clear colour - it has completely done my head in seeing that old building knowing what is there now!!! Incredible! Thank YOU! |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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I have two more here (and thank you for the appreciation; I really am grateful for it; so many message boards are full of immature timewasters who never address the subject and thrive on cattiness - I've yet to see it here beyond folk disagreeing, which, of course, is quite healthy!).
Just to let you know before I post them, I have just paid for 3 more cards which should arrive in the next few days. It includes another one of Goulston Street (and keep your eyes peeled on eBay for a copy of the Goulston Street card I have already posted, but in sepia - not for sale by me, I shall add).
Anyway, these are cheating as they are from a modern repro pack, but nevertheless here is a great one for all fans of CE. An early shot of people hop-picking. Easy to imagine her doing this!
And this shot is of Gales Garden in Bethnal Green as late as 1923 - though you wouldn't think it!
And finally I have taken an earlier posting of The Queen's Head from the shot of the demoliton of White's Row in the early 1940s - I don't know if it is any clearer, but I've tried to strengthen the contrast and sharpen the image a bit.
Some more gems to come within the week - by which time I shall no longer be a 'nobody'. Ha haaa! |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 400
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
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Hi Phillip
I try and avoid the cattiness and petty squabbles as I believe we will progress further if we help each other out irrespective of whether or not we agree with each others theories.
I looked look through some of my old negatives as I had some more of that building, an old dear I spoke to when I took some of the photos told me it use to be an incinerator, not sure if that is true though.
This is one of the first photos I took and probably my favourite of mine. Taken about 1987
One of my biggest regrets (I've had a few, but then again, to few to mention) is not taking a picture of the corner of Brady Street and Winthrop Street before it was demolished in the early nineties as it was the same as it was back in the 1880's.
All the best
Rob
P.S if you want a better quality image of the Whites Row pic (or any other, for that matter), let me know and I'll e-mail one to you. my e-mail is
rclack@supanet.com |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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Lovely photos these Philip and that one of yours Rob of Gunthorpe Street-superb!---Ive not been able to access these last few but its probably my computer.Will look in again tomorrow.
Nats |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3813
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 7:55 am: |
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Thanks to everyone for these tremendous photos.
Swallow Gardens seems to have been inhabited at one time - there are a couple of references in the "Times" to house numbers there, 40 or 50 years before the Coles murder. But in those days it was called Swallow's Gardens.
Robert |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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Hee hee - excellent, Rob. Thanks!
I found those brilliant old shots of George Yard Buildings in the archive a few days back (oh how GREAT to see a photo of the staircase!) but one of the shots was of the wrought iron gate to the building now in situ as someone's garden gate! Does anyone know where this is?
Showing my ignorance - on walking down Whites Row tonight I saw that the Queens Head (building, if not purpose) is still there! At least it looked exactly the same to me as the 1940s photo.
You know how a lot of Ripperologists get into MJK? I think my obsession is George Yard Buildings! Whilst on this tack - does anyone know the location of The White Swan on Whitechapel Road, or have any images of it? |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 403
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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Hi Robert
Swallow's Gardens is the correct name, for some reason I keep saying Swallow Gardens. The arch backed onto some alleys which had buildings on, the first one was Swallow's Gardens, which retained its name when they were demolished to make way for the Midland Railway Goods Depot.
Hi Phillip
The gate from George Yard buildings belongs to Winston G. Ramsey who published a book called "The East End Then and Now" published by Battle of Britain. It's a book I would have taken money on that you would have had in your collection. It's a bit pricey at £40 but is worth every penny as it shows hundreds of good quality photos of the East End over the years (the then and now comparison shots).
The White Swan is on Whitechapel High Street exactly opposite Old Castle Street. The yard next to it is called White Swan Yard.
I think the site is covered by the bus station now. It's a long there somewhere. I have photos of that part of Whitechapel High Street, but they are from a long distance, so close up detail isn't that good.
Rob |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Robert - talk about ask and ye shall receive!
Thank you very much for this info. I am staggered to learn where The White Swan was; I had just assumed it was the OTHER end of Whitechapel High Street, closer to the London Hospital! Now you say it, it makes sense that Pearly Poll saw Tabram going up George Yard before she went up Angel Alley, seeing where the locations are - otherwise she would have had to go past Angel Alley to see Tabram off and then go back. This will be great for my walks, as the stop just before George Yard is Castle Alley, so my tourists will have a better idea of the location. Next walk I have (Monday?) I will see what is opposite there now.
It's quite flattering that, although I have only been regularly posting for about a week, you would have expected me to have certain books in my collection. I had never even heard of the one you mention! My main interest in the Ripper is the sites, but I don't have an interest in the East End per se, it is all to do with its links to JTR. As will be obvious from my postings so far, I conjour up the zeitgeist (bet that's a word not often used on a message board!) on my tours and I really like to know the exact places I'm talking about. I can rest easy, knowing that there is someone like yourself out there who is so helpful!
THANK YOU! |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 433
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
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Again, fabulous photos guys! Especially Rob's photo of Durward Street. It gives you a very good idea of how long (or rather, how short) Buck's Row actually was.
Then, a question: are there any old (and clear) pictures of the Queen's Head pub or does anybody know where to look for them?
Photos or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 406
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
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Hi Phillip
Zeitgeist! is that the same as Poltergeist?
Knowing your interest in the Ripper sites and some of the photos you posted and having an obscure book like 'Spitlafields Nippers' I thought it would be a given that you were interested in the East End area. Anyway Its worth tracking down at your local library to have a look first, before making your mind up.
Historical Directories http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ is a handy site, but can be a bit of a b'stard to use at times, there's a copy of Kellys London Directory from 1895 on it.
Hi Frank
The photo of Durward Street is from the halfway point just where it broadens out in front of the school.
As for 'The Queens Head' the earliest one I have seen is the one I posted from the 1940s, I tried Tower Hamlets Local History (where I got that one from) but no luck. I would like to think there are some older ones out there, but it just a question of finding time to go through photographic archives like 'The Greater London Archives' and local History Archives. I may give Hackney Archives a try as they seem to have some records and photos from Spitalfields.
All the best
Rob |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 437
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
|
Thanks for the info, Rob!
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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George Hutchinson
Police Constable
Username: Philip
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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Hi folks. I'm now bona fide and here's the latest three cards that have just turned up.
First is a great card of an East End Rag & Bone man - I notice he has 6 big sacks on the back of the cart. I'm a Tabram-ist, so I wonder...?
Here's another rare early view of Goulston Street (I guess it must be Wentworth Model Dwellings that you can't see on the right, sadly)
And finally yet another new view of Petticoat Lane - notice the name of the building on the top right hand side. The 'JO' has obviously fallen off! 
Anyone with shots of George Yard Buildings, do get in touch (besides the obvious ones).
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2755
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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Philip,
Great contributions as usual. Sure it's not Diemschutz on the upper photo?
Congratulations to the fact that you're now a registred member. Let's see how long it takes until you outrank me.
Until then, bring me some coffee...
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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George Hutchinson
Police Constable
Username: Philip
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Glenn - you shall have gin and nothing else! "Coffee" - I ask you!
I have just found my copy of "Spitalfields Nippers" and will post all these images over the next few days. They are amazing and I have found, very smudged and small, someone has written their name and address in chalk on a boarded-up window, so I am now going to find where that is on my 1894 map. This could be fun. There are 25 shots, however, so I maybe should make a thread for these by themselves?
PHILIP
PS : Rob, thanks for your kind words as always on various threads!
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Police Constable
Username: Philip
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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You know I posted a shot of the 'Thrawl Street Archway' well above here? I've just discovered that what I've been telling thousands of tourists for 2 years is wrong! I wondered why it would span a street when it is too narrow! It was the entrance to the Rothschild Dwellings on Flower & Dean Street! I'd read it was Thrawl Street in one of Fido's writings. Can anyone tell me if any of the victims stayed in this building at any time? Thanks!
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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Hi all,
in 1994 I took a walk down Winthrop Street (but not Durward Str., I could hit myself for that). I took two pics from the Street: the first standing almost next to the then derelict board school looking down Winthrop Steet (Is it the gate to that horse slaughterer on the rh side?)
and the second at the Brady Str. end showing the back of old the houses that faced Brady Street.
Now they constantly remind me of missed opportunities.
I remember looking round the corner Brady/Durward, the Roebuck pub still standing, but didn't take a picture.
Ahhh
Christian
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 1:41 pm: |
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Crazy to see how it looked so recently!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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DARK_INTENT
Police Constable
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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Christian
Amazing how great minds think alike. I did much the same as you in 1992, just taking a quick view down Winthrop Street and not doing Durward Street. I too could kick myself. This one is from further back than yours, as you can see the side of the Board School, but you can just see the two white posts which appear in your shot in the distance. Incidentally is it just me or does that bit of rubbish look slightly like a woman's body lying on its side, in your photo. I think I'm spending too much time on these boards!!!
All the best
D_I
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 186
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
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Just as an aside, folks,
Just why did they demolish so many of these buildings? So much history demolished! At the drop of a hat, it seems.
I currently live in a 1919 building (Millar's Ct, heh heh!) I Hope that no demolishment will take place in the imminent future....
Bestest,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 36
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:59 am: |
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And I live in a bedsit converted from part of an old house and my room is 10 x 12 feet - same as MJK's! Likewise, I hope that no visits are imminent, especially if I decide to become a prostitute. 
This is something I tell my groups when they ask. The irony is the very places in which the Ripper struck are the very places that came down, generally speaking. I think it was because they were the sites that were ideal for criminal dealings; the dark, narrow alleys. It does seem odd, though, that you have (for example) the entire side of Annie's Hanbury Street demolished, yet the other side still being as it was in 1888. It is almost as if there is a legacy.
I found some interesting old footage last night. 7 years ago I went round the sites with my camcorder. Not the too distant past, but I remember I was filming a row of Victorian houses in one street that were being demolished. I think it was Old Montague Street. I'll be delighted to find out where it actually was; you never know - there is a small chance it might be relevant! (Glenn, if you're reading this then I'll do it on your video, OK?)
One thing that strikes me. Why is it that TWO of you went doen Winthrop Street and avoided Durward Street even though they were only feet apart? It doesn't make sense; surely if you went to that area of Whitechapel, the murder site would be the whole reason! Maybe it's just me.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2788
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
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Hutch,
Regarding Winthrop Street... my thoughts exactly.
"The irony is the very places in which the Ripper struck are the very places that came down, generally speaking. I think it was because they were the sites that were ideal for criminal dealings; the dark, narrow alleys. It does seem odd, though, that you have (for example) the entire side of Annie's Hanbury Street demolished, yet the other side still being as it was in 1888. It is almost as if there is a legacy."
Well, to be perfectly honest, I suspect that it even might be part of a deliberate choice. (Or maybe it's my own battles with local politicians that has made paranoid?) From what I've heard, London and especially the Eastenders doesen't seem that keen on preserving their historical legacy to the Ripper and that they're doing their best to wipe it out. It is almost as if they're bothered by or ashamed of it; I mean just look at how fast they changed the names of the streets, to take one example.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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