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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 589
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 3:43 am: | 
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For those that don’t know………..
Anthony Hardy has been jailed for life for killing three women.
Anthony Hardy - who had been released from a psychiatric hospital after doctors thought he would be no danger to the public - dismembered two women and left their body parts in a bin near his Camden - north London home.
Months earlier another woman had been found dead in his flat - but her death had initially been put down to natural causes.
Hardy, aged 53, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey to murdering Sally White, Elizabeth Valad and Bridgette MacClennan.
In sentencing him, judge Mr Justice Keith said: "Only you know for sure how your victims met their deaths but the unspeakable indignities to which you subjected the bodies of your last two victims in order to satisfy your depraved and perverted needs are in no doubt."
Parts of the dismembered remains of Miss MacClennan, 34, and Miss Valad, 29, who both lived in London, were found in bin bags in the early hours of 30th December 2002.
The body of Miss White, 31, who also lived in London, was found in his flat in January 2002.
The Metropolitan Police revealed that Hardy had been investigated for three rapes, but there was insufficient evidence to bring a case against him.
Richard Horwell, prosecuting, said a tramp scavenging for food in a pub bin on 30th December last year made the "gruesome discovery".
Mr Horwell said the three prostitutes died in Hardy's home.
"We do not profess to have every piece of this disturbing jigsaw, but the defendant had an obsession with pornography and liked to dominate women," Mr Horwell said.
"A motive for the murders we suggest is that he decided to kill these women in order to photograph them in various positions which he had arranged when they were dead."
He said Hardy had been in the process of preparing Miss White to be photographed when he was disturbed in January by police who found her naked body when investigating a dispute Hardy had with a neighbour.
He was arrested for murder but a post mortem examination found she had died from a heart attack and he was released.
He later spent time at St Luke's Hospital in Muswell Hill, north London, in relation to the dispute with the neighbour but was released in November.
A month later his second and third victims were killed.
Mr Horwell said all three victims were crack addicts and were financing the habit through prostitution.
After the discovery of the body parts by the tramp, Hardy's flat was searched and the torso of Ms Valad was found.
Post mortem tests found she had been strangled.
She was later identified through DNA as there was no head or hands.
Malcolm Swift QC, defending, said, Hardy - who had originally denied the murders - "accepts he used excessive force in the course of otherwise consensual but extreme sexual activity but maintains he did not have an intention to kill."
Detective Chief Inspector Ken Bell said outside court: "Hardy is manipulative and evil. He is highly dangerous to women."
Mr Bell said he was satisfied with the initial investigation into the death of Ms White.
He said: "Without doubt Sally White died of a heart attack. What the investigation could never have known at the time was the background of Hardy in relation to his obsession with prostitutes and his sexual activities.
"Evidence from the murders committed a year on led me to examine the case of Sally White and to go back to the Home Office pathologist and ask him to reassess his findings."
I would also like to add that once the body parts of Hardy’s 2nd & 3rd victims were found he abandoned his flat and wandered the streets, not far from his crime scene, and was arrested a few days later.
He was spotted around the estate mumbling incoherently and visited local hospitals for his medications (he was also diabetic along with his mental problems).
Now this guy strikes a cord with me. I can just imagine ‘Kosminski/Cohen’ being in a similar (not exact) vein.
Any views ???
Monty
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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:57 pm: |
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Hi Monty,I too watched thi s grisly programme
and thought it revealed the very type he would have been.A total fantasist as well as quite clearly ill.Barely able to look after himself
but managing to get what he wanted somehow----and managing not to get caught although in his case he seemed to half want to be caught!
And yes Kosminski although a much younger man
might well have come across like this---all the locals found him strange or "not quite right" and steered clear of him.Another difference though is that Kosminski seems to have had a very caring family-we didnt get to hear about thi mans family.
Natalie. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 698
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 5:01 pm: |
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I’m afraid I can’t agree with the speculation here about the nature of this killer. I too watched the police interviews with Mister Hardy, and I was completely struck by his thoroughly professional criminal manner in dealing with an intensive police interview. He maintained a bland ‘no comment’ to every single question, even when hard pressed by interviewing officers who were shoving photographs - which he had taken - into his face of his victims, obviously dead and obviously being physically and sexually abused after they were dead. Clearly the photographs were taken by him in his flat, and there was no doubt that he had killed the women. Right at the end when the senior interviewing officer pleaded with him to give details of where the remaining body parts were hidden, he calmly replied ‘no comment’.
One of my many, many sad hobbies is to study endless hours of police interviews, partly through video evidence but more often through transcript detail, and in the course of this I have watched - and read - many hundreds of such interviews with rapists, killers, drug dealers and other professional criminal classes.
What struck me immediately with Mister Hardy was that his interview technique was exactly the same as the professional drug dealer, always to say ‘no comment’ to any and every question, regardless of pressure and regardless of subsequent court action, for just like the drug dealers he was quite aware that the negative legal force of his ‘no comment’ defence would be negated by his immediate plea of guilty in the court.
For those who are not aware, a criminal who takes the ‘no comment’ line of defence, and then pleads not guilty in court is almost certainly going to be judged guilty and will automatically receive a sentence doubling the mandatory sentence he would have received if he had offered a different and more co-operative line of defence in his original police interviews.
However if the criminal adopts the ‘no comment’ stance during interview but then immediately pleads guilty in court, his ‘no comment’ stance in interview will not largely figure in the sentencing policy of the court judge.
It is a subtle distinction, but does play a major role not only in sentencing but also in the treatment of the criminal in his future career within the prison system. In other words such a guilty plea could ensure that the criminal is optioned to a less secure and regimental institution, and perhaps more importantly is then eligible for some sort of parole or early release situation.
The ‘no comment’ attitude is exchanged for the guilty plea.
And this is exactly how the drug dealers do it.
I am personally aware of many dealers who have been sentenced to a twelve year stretch in court, after pleading guilty to the offences tried whilst offering the ‘no comment’ defence, and then have had their sentences reduced within the prison system by half and have in fact walked out of the system after three years on a parole basis.
What struck me in this case was that we were looking at a man who was in total control of the circumstances of his arrest and interview by the police, and had already mapped out a legal process and course for his interviews and subsequent court appearance. In other words he was keenly aware of his situation, perhaps even painfully aware of the consequences of his actions, behaviour and the subsequent results that were available to him as an individual within a controlled society.
Thereby he knew exactly what he was doing at all times.
This man was patently not a maniac.
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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 184
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 5:57 pm: |
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As usual your post is unusually knowledgeable and enlightening AP. I must say I know nothing about such procedures.
I can agree with your description of Mr Hardy"s behaviour while being interviewed. He did indeed appear to be looking after himself as best he could as indeed he did with regard to his hospital visits for his medication.He also appeared to know how to proceed to procure the victims he needed for his strange fantasies-writing letters and putting ads in local shops for
lodgers.But there were inconsistencies in all this
in my view in that he seemed to be walking through water without any hold on reality only a seeming willingness to go along with minimal procedures as tough obeying established routines was about all he could handle.
Also of interest I thought was his neighbours references to him mumbling incoherently to himself
[all locked up in his own world?
just a few thoughts on it-Best Natalie. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 703
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 2:04 pm: |
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Thanks Natalie
Yes, you do raise an important point with this walking through water.
This is something I have seen a lot of in general criminal behaviour, and you might remember that I raised the issue of ‘denial’ some time ago when examining this very type of behaviour.
Such crimes are shocking, we all know that, but perhaps what we still do yet fully realise is how shocking these crimes are to the criminals that commit them.
We all react to extreme shock in a similar fashion, whether that shock be the sudden death of a loved one, or the intimate rejection by someone we deeply love, or even a great financial blow where we suddenly know that we are in a desperate situation, in fact many, many different situations are able to produce a reaction of deep shock, and if you have recently experienced something like this then you will understand the stickiness of walking through water in such circumstances.
As I said, it was obvious that this killer was in total control of his circumstances once he was arrested, but did appear to be running out of control prior to his arrest - and here I do mean in day-to-day matters rather than his clearly murderous behaviour - and I find this obviously normal. The shock of what he had done only became apparent when he exposed his emotions to the outside world, in the confines of his murder palace he was king, but out on the street he was now’t but a sad little man who had murdered some women. At home there was no need for denial but once on the street, reality cut in, and he became the shambling, shuffling ugly little man he really was. In the police interviews his ego grew again and he was once again in control of the circumstances of his sad little life.
We must only imagine what it must be like for an individual wandering the streets with the realisation that they must go home and face the uncomfortable fact that they have a dismembered body at home. This will produce a shock reaction, regardless of the fact that when this individual gets home he may well continue to abuse and play with the dead victim. For he is in his murder palace then and not out on the streets.
Sorry if this rambles a bit.
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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 186
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 6:02 pm: |
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Thankyou for another perspective on this.I can see how this "walking on water" may have been his reaction to shock---numbness-denial---until he could get back to his castle where he was king of this domain and could indulge his crazed urges answerable to nobody until the law caught up with
Best Natalie.[to AP] |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 601
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:14 pm: |
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AP,
Very informative...thank you.
Just as a side note though. I also conduct IUCs (though not in relation to a murder charge) and I often come up against the 'no comment' defence. Most frustrating but at least you are giving the interviewee the chance to explain what happend. This will work against the defendant in court if they go not guilty but as you mention, it rarely does for the reasons you give.
But, and this is where Im leading (sorry for the roundabout way) the 'no comment' defence is usually prompted by the brief and not by the defendant. So this act may not be born out of his control of the situation, a understanding of the consequences of his actions but the advice and instructions of a more experienced brief.
That said, regarding the results of a 'no comment' defence, Im in total agreement.
Regards,
Monty
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AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 1:32 pm: |
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Monty
Thanks for your comments.
Yes, you are of course right, the ‘no comment’ defence is always suggested by the brief in serious criminal cases where the outcome is usually and obviously a guilty verdict. Having said that though, I have often seen this ‘no comment’ strategy suggested by a brief who is obviously out of depth with the case he has been assigned through legal aid. But you are right.
However I don’t believe I have ever seen a so-called lunatic who has patently killed people, maintain this line of defence with such composure, self-assurance and bloody-mindedness ever before. Drug dealers, yes; killers who have killed for profit, gain or revenge, yes, but never before this type of criminal. This surprised me, for I would have expected a killer of this nature to have perhaps become boastful, taunting or even attempting to build some kind of relationship with the interviewing officers.
I hear what you say, and it is right, but I am personally puzzled by the composure of this killer in interview.
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 604
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 7:50 am: |
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AP,
Yeah. I'd have thought he would have wallowed in his own self importance.
Almost thought he would at the end. I think the IO dragged that plea out just a tad too far. I also feel that the IOs technique wasnt as good as it could have been. Id have left a few silent pauses in....even if I was hit with 'no comment'.
But hey, Ive never had to interview a 6ft +, built like a 'Mary Whitehouse' serial Killer who takes apart his victims and dumps 'em in his bins in front of CCTV !
Monty
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AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 719
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 1:32 pm: |
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Yes, Monty, I would have expected to have seen a more ‘robust’ interviewing technique with this individual, and personally I would have gone for his obvious confusion about his own sexuality identity, asking him blunt questions about his inclinations towards his own sex, and whether he killed women because he was basically gay and couldn’t satisfy a woman sexually. I don’t necessarily believe this to be the case here, but I do believe such an interview stance would have led this individual into an explosion of protective outrage in an attempt to preserve his fractured ego where his sexuality was concerned.
I do believe this would have worked.
The result is not pleasant, the suspect will very often attack the interviewer, and when they are large suspects, this can cause injury.
I once had the pleasure of watching such a suspect, when closely pressed about his sexuality and crimes, actually demolish the entire plaster board wall of an interview room with his fists before he was cuffed; broke down in tears and then confessed to a string of crimes against young men that he wasn’t even being charged with.
Such moments are to be cherished.
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 615
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:20 am: |
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AP,
Too right.
For me the IO wasnt authoritative enough. He banged on that he would give Hardy the impression that he knew all the events and reasons.
Yep, that worked.
He just sounded so nervous. Thats no place to sound nervous.
I agree. Some questions that are extremely near-knuckled will often prevoke a reaction. Thats what you are looking for, something to break his cycle. Id have probably asked a few questions that are totally unrelated to the actual crime. Asked about his visits to the hospital. Maybe throw in a question about trains to Nottingham.
Still, at the end of the day, a 'no commenter' is the worst you can get. So I do have a degree of sympathy.
Monty
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AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 726
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:15 pm: |
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Yes Monty, the 'no commenter' is not much fun.
I often wonder why they don't say 'good morning' instead of 'no comment'.
It is a sad defence, and one can do so much better with a little bit of thought and imagination.
One interview I saw, the IO was really banging away at the suspect concerned - and doing very well I thought even though the guy was going 'no comment' it was a very angry 'no comment' - and then he asked the suspect what his feelings would be about committing the crime he had - which was rape - on a much younger victim i.e. about the age of the suspect's daughter, and the suspect replied quite reasonably:
'Oh, you are asking me to speculate, I couldn't possibly do that, this is a serious criminal investigation.'
The IO took a coffee break. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 623
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:30 am: |
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AP,
Nice one.
I tell you, this god damn PACE compliancy has taken the fun out of it !!!!!
How come you get to study IUCs as part of your hobby ?
You got contacts ???
Monty
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AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 728
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 7:33 am: |
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Monty, thanks.
Well I suppose I do have contacts, but very much of the worst kind. As I obviously need not tell you, all citizens interviewed by the police have an inherent right to all copies of interviews whether tape, video or transcript, and what they subsequently do with this privileged material is entirely a matter of personal choice and decision.
Some people collect telephone cards or stamps. I've always been a bit strange in my hobbies.
But you are also right, until I retired about ten years ago, I had a unique relationship with one particular DCDU, and enjoyed access to events and information normally denied to writers.
This was a privilige but it was also damn scary.
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 624
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 8:50 am: |
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AP,
Aaaaaaah !
Dont worry...I dont think anyone noticed.
....now Im off to do an IUC. If its any good I'll let you know !!
Monty
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 197
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 2:45 pm: |
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uk viewers THIS IS REPEATED TONIGHT 12.30 channel 4 (well tommorow morning then!)
jennifer
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 635
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 3:18 am: |
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AP,
No good......had to suspend and call in an interpreter.
Do you want it?
Monty
PS........Im joking folks....just joking ! |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 484
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 2:29 pm: |
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Hi
for the benefit of anyone interested fours documentary on this is on UK channel four at 11.25pm tonight- set your videos!
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 4:55 am: |
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Guys,
For any of you who are still interested....
...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4273543.stm
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2001
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 8:34 am: |
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Hi Monty,
thanks for the link.
It sounds like this lady has a very sound point
Jenni
"We womble by night and we womble by day,Looking for litter to trundle away"
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