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Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 4:18 pm: |       |
I don't know why but the Goulston Street graffitti has always bothered me. My feeling is that it has nothing to do with the killings at all, and was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It happened to be written inside the doorway where the killer tossed Eddowes' scrap of apron, but I find it highly suspect that the killer took the time to stand there with the bloody apron apon his person and decided to take a minute or two to write out a completely ridiculous statement, which doesn't even make sense.
In the middle of the night, in a dark doorway it seems unlikley he would have been even able to see what he was writing.
What do others think? |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 114
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
Hi Kris,Well last week I was thinking that Anderson"s prime suspect Kosminski might have made for his mother"s house which is just round the corner from Goulston Street on his way back from the double event.The way I was thinking was that he was possibly carrying out some "instruction" doing the murders deluding himself that it was for some"streetcleaning "kind of thing and that maybe he decided to add to his satisfaction with his operation by noting that on this occasion should blame be apportioned to his compatriots it would not be for nothing[if you see what I mean].
At the moment however I think that JtR may have been a slightly different type or even that there were more than one operating in Whitechapel in Autumn 1888.All the Best kris Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
Hi Kris
The message is usually taken as anti-semitic, but I was just wondering if it could have been pro-semitic.
Suppose that after Pizer's exoneration, a Jew had written this message, with the meaning being "The Jews are not the sort of men who'll put up with being blamed for something they didn't do". Maybe such a message and meaning would have been allowed to remain in a Jewish area.
Just a suggestion.
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 164
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 2:37 pm: | |
Whatho Kris,
As I have been banging on about the lack of light in Goulston Street, I can only agree with you.
Cheers, Mark |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 77
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
Hi Kris,
I’m not claiming that the Ripper wrote the graffito, but from a practical point of view I don’t see why he couldn’t have written it. The probable timing of the dropping of the apron – between 2:20 and 2:55 am – suggests that the Ripper first went to his bolthole, no doubt to loose the body parts and clean himself up and only then went out again to get rid of the apron far enough away from his home to avoid the police from knocking on his door somewhere in the near future.
He could simply have looked and ‘heard’ around to check if it was safe, then stepped inside the doorway, chalked the message down, then checked again if it was still okay before dropping the apron. If somebody approached before he had dropped the apron he could simply have left it in his pocket or put it back there, in case he had already taken it out. I have written down the message myself after turning all the lights out and it took me about 45 seconds. What I wrote down looked quite decent (how I wrote).
Kris, you said you doubt that the killer took time to write such ‘a completely ridiculous statement, which doesn't even make sense.’ To Commissioner Warren and Superintendent Arnold it obviously did make sense, as they ordered the graffito to be wiped out because they thought it was evidently written with the intention of inflamating the public mind against the Jews. If the Ripper wrote it, one explanation I can offer is that he could have done it to direct the police attention away from him, and maybe he even intended what Warren and Arnold feared: that riots against the Jews would break out, but this is pure speculation, of course.
As a layman, another thing to be considered, I think, is the question if such graffito would have lasted long in a locality which was principally inhabited by Jews. I can imagine they would probably not have taken kindly to it - I know I wouldn't have - and subsequently would have wiped it out as soon as they saw it.
All the best,
Frank
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Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 151
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 9:24 pm: | |
Someone in the chat this past Tuesday mentioned that the words are only about 4'8" off the ground. If this is true, why write so low? Most graffiti appears at eye level or higher. Sounds like the work of a child or a woman, since most men were at least 5', even then. And the lighting conditions, as Mark and Kris have mentioned, were atrocious.
Frank: You're assuming they could read English and the message had been there during daylight. There's plenty of time between nightfall and 3 am for some neighborhood ruffian to have chalked the message, anticipating its discovery first thing in the morning.
I'm sorry, it just seems ridiculous for some guy who's just committed a murder to remain in the vicinity of the crime writing bizarre messages on walls, particularly given the light and the wet weather. And did he just happen to be carrying a piece of chalk around along with the knives? Sorry, it just all seems a little far-fetched to me. Just because someone is a crazed killer doesn't mean he's also an idiot. |
Brad McGinnis
Detective Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 11:38 pm: | |
Hi Erin,
That someone was me. Im approximating 4"8" from what was written. "About shoulder height".At the time the average male was about 5'5" or 5'6".
There are a number of other factors that make me think the grafitto was done by a kid. This has been a dead end for years. JTR didnt write it.
Brad
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Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 154
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 12:21 am: | |
Thanks, Brad. I thought it was you, but I wanted to give proper credit where credit was due. Anyway, I think your reasoning is sound. What other factors lend credence to your belief that it was the work of a kid? The poor spelling? Seems like an avenue worth pursuing. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 555
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 3:17 am: | |
Hi All,
I think what Frank suggests is quite possible – Jack offloads the offal, knows he must discard the apron piece and decides to use it to his advantage, taking some chalk with him and going slightly off-track to drop the apron somewhere the police will think is directly en route from Mitre Square to Jack’s lair. Then he writes the message, but not too high up the wall, so it has the best chance of being seen and associated with the apron.
An anti-semitic Jack, putting a final flourish on his work before returning exhausted for a nice lie-in, might well chalk a rather confused message blaming Jews for everything, from the fact that they were a rich source of customers, providing Jack with plenty of willing victims in the area around Jews Market (Petticoat Lane), to the fact that their meddling had made him kill twice that night.
The message may or may not have made sense to the writer, but if Jack wrote it, in the heightened state he no doubt would have been in at the time, would anyone really expect it to make too much sense?
Love,
Caz
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 547
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 7:22 am: | |
He had time to nick Kates eyelids...
...he had time to leave the graffito.
Thats my view.
Im with Kris and the stripey magpie with regards to the light but I also see where Frank is coming from. It can be done, its just that I dont think it can be done as neatly as it came out without decent light.
Ive been to the site. Through the layers of paint you come to a sepia brick glazing. Now, if this galzed brick was added after 1888 then it doesnt interest me. If it was contemporary then the writing will come out blurred...well it did, cos I wrote on it, then I am interested. I cannot believe that, if left on, the graffito would have stayed on. Not at that height on that surface. Which would indicate that it was a fresh piece.
Not saying that it was Eddowes killer though.
Monty
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Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 297
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 8:07 am: | |
I've never really been able to decide whether the message was left by Jack or not, but the message itself always leads me to suspect not.
The double negative is common in the East End vernacular. "I'm not saying nuffink" would mean "I am saying nothing" or "I'm not saying anything", or "I didn't do nuffink" similarly "I did nothing" or "I didn't do anything". So to me "will not be blamed for nothing" would mean "will not take the blame for anything" or "will not take responsibility for their actions". That sounds more like an ordinary bit of graffiti by someone angry at the Jews rather than an esoteric message by a fleeing murderer to me.
On the other hand, it all depends on Jack's motives. It is possible that he wanted his killings blamed on the Jews because he held some grudge against them. It is then also possible that he was the angry person and that the graffiti was never intended as a message to the police or the public, but just something he scrawled there while he was still filled with the rage that fuelled the killings. |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:45 pm: | |
Hi Erin & all,
First of all, like I said in my earlier post, I’m not saying that the graffito was written by the Ripper. Actually, I would say: 50–50. In this earlier post I was merely reacting to Kris' opening post by putting forward only practical points against the objections he raised to it being written by the killer.
In a similar way, I don’t see a big problem with Brad’s 4’8” or shoulder height. For me, shoulder height or a little higher is okay. Certainly if the Ripper was a bit smaller than average, the height won’t be a problem. But also Caz has put forward a good explanation for the height of the writing.
As to the light, like I said before I myself wrote the text of the graffito with all the lights out last night and what I wrote came out decently, so I still don’t see a major practical problem with this either.
Regarding the wet weather, I don’t think an extra minute outside would have influenced him much, for he was there anyway to throw away the apron. Besides, inside the doorway he would probably be out of the rain.
As far as the chalk’s concerned, the Ripper took a knife with him, so why couldn’t he have taken a piece of chalk with him? He might have taken it with him especially for the purpose of writing something if the opportunity came along, he might have carried it in his pocket all the time.
As to the people living the Goulston Street area not being able to read English, Donald Swanson wrote that Jews of all nationalities as well as English lived there.
Erin, you said: “it just seems ridiculous for some guy who's just committed a murder to remain in the vicinity of the crime writing bizarre messages on walls,…” I have taken a map and roughly measured the distance, which would be about 400 meters or 400 yards. Furthermore, although constable Halse walked through Goulston Street shortly after 2:15 am, constable Long was walking his normal beat which took him through Goulston Street and as far as police activity in that neighbourhood was concerned everything seems to have been normal until Long found the apron and the graffito. As the Ripper had done far worse things than writing the message and dropping the apron, this task wouldn't have been that much trouble.
So, as far as I can see there are no real practical problems with the Ripper having written the message. The Ripper might have suffered from a mild case of paranoid schizophrenia and blamed the Jews for everything, or he might have been a highly intelligent psychopath, who enjoyed the prospect of a possible outburst of anti-semitism.
In the end, whether one accepts Jack to have been the Writer or not all depends on how one perceives the Ripper. The problem with Jack is that he was probably somewhere in the middle of the two margins I mentioned.
All the best,
Frank
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1627
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 6:47 pm: | |
Hi Frank
It's possible the Ripper was a cunning psychopath, and it's possible the Ripper wrote the message after the murder - but I have a bit of a problem with both of these being true, because of Monty's point : why not just pin a pre-written card to the victim?
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 166
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
Whatho all,
There is a way Jack wrote the graffiti and that was much earlier in the day when it was still light. But then he would have been in danger of bringing notice to himself and why write such an interesting bit of prose on the off chance he would be passing by much later on with a piece of apron covered in stuff I'd prefer not to think about.
Of course Jack may have spent his days writing such words all over Whitechapel.
No I think it was just a coincidence the apron was by the graffiti. I should think there was graffiti all over the area. Had the crimes been slightly later the graffiti might have read "Up the Hammers" and we'd all be looking for someone in a claret and blue shirt.
And Monty, that's stripy, sinking magpie at the moment. Notts are going for their 14th relegation to make sure they keep the record. Birmingham City are dangerously close with 12 relegations and have every chance of being dumped out of the Premiership.
Cheers, Mark (who still thinks Jack was actually a cat and could see in the dark) |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 1:14 am: | |
Good morning Robert,
The fact that the Ripper didn't just pin a pre-written card to Catherine Eddowes seems to suggest that he wasn't that cunning. He might have been Jack the Writer, but he simply wasn't Jack the Pinner  . Good point by Monty, which I hadn't read before.
Now, I'm off to work.
Frank |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 556
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 7:25 am: | |
Folks,
To be honest with you I feel its a nothing statement. Always have.
Take the apron away and its has less relevence than the graffito in Hanbury st.
"What" I hear?
"Exactly" says Monty.
PS "Good point by Monty, which I hadn't read before."....blimey, I must be on a roll !
Monty
|
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 51
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 9:49 am: | |
Apart from being written 4'8" from the ground, i thought i had also read the writing was quite small?
I seem to remember reading that the entire message was a little over five and a half inches wide. Does anyone else remember reading this?
The height and the size of the writing would lead me toward a child writing it. But, on the other hand, how many children could write in Whiechapel at the time? |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 312
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:43 am: | |
As I recall, the capital letters were 3/4 of an inch tall with the lower case letters of a proportional size (i.e., less than 3/4 of an inch tall). Quite small, indeed.
Andy S.
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Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:51 am: | |
Keep 'm coming Monty, don't hold back!
Frank |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 9:30 am: | |
"To be honest with you I feel its a nothing statement. Always have.
Take the apron away and its has less relevence than the graffito in Hanbury st."
Similarly, take the kidney away and the Lusk letter becomes just another hoaxed communication. It may have been. Problem is, the kidney was there and the apron was there. Too coincidental in my view. These were the two purported communications from the killer that had any sort of authentication included. That is why I lean towards these two messages being genuine.
Regards, Vincent |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 9:00 pm: | |
What is "bizarre" to one may be brilliant to another.
Me, I want a hula-hoop.
Bullwinkle
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Jason Scott Mullins
Detective Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 71
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 9:36 pm: | |
We can hardly stand the wait, please christmas don't be late..
Odd, while I was reading this, I was playing that mp3
crix0r |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 204
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 9:08 am: | |
I just thought -- if he wrote the graffito then it was probably part of a signature: something he needed to do to fulfill his fantasy. It could serve no other purpose. That being the case, why have we not found graffiti at the other crime scenes? Of course it is possible that the fantasy dictated that he write his message several blocks from the crime scene, and this was done but never connected to the killings. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 311
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 10:46 am: | |
Diana
For all we know, he might have written 50 graffiti messages all over Whitechapel. But being obscure and esoteric, and not having a bit of bloodstained apron lying next to them, nobody took a blind bit of notice. |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 169
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
Whatho Alan,
Exactly my earlier point.
Cheers, Mark |
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