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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Letters and Communications » Goulston Street Graffito » Written by the Killer? « Previous Next »

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Archive through December 27, 2003Mark Andrew Pardoe25 12-27-03  6:54 pm
Archive through December 08, 2004Jennifer D. Pegg50 12-08-04  11:02 am
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1175
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All

It has also been pointed out before (sorry I forget who said it... possibly Bob Hinton) that the chalk could have been tailor's chalk. This would make it much easier to write a message without it become a blurred mess, since tailor's chalk makes a thin line. That type of chalk would also fit with the size of the lettering, stated to have been comparatively small, in contrast to the common misconception that the inscription was writ large (note that this may also have been why Long may have missed the graffito earlier). Halse reported: "There were three lines of writing in a good schoolboy's round hand. The size of the capital letters would be about 3/4 in, and the other letters were in proportion."

All the best

Chris

Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 591
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, Jennifer

Exactly, perhaps he missed it because he was new to the beat, or was sloppy in his work, or the graffiti was small, as Chris says. Maybe a combination of all three together. The scenario which calls for the Ripper to hang around for an hour doesn't seem right to me.

Or maybe I'm just doing Long a disservice here, and he saw nothing the first time around because nothing was there to be seen. Maybe the Ripper, after working quickly and efficiently on Eddowes, really did spend seventy minutes or so wandering up and down the the streets, waiting just for that right moment to place that half-apron, the right location to write his cryptic message and leave the police aghast. . .and nobody understood what was meant. Long couldn't even get the spelling right. "Idiots!" the Ripper must have snarled. "See if I ever write graffiti for them again!" :-)

Dave



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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1438
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guys,

I think its important to remember that, as part of his duties, Long was obliged to check door and window fastenings, trap doors and coal holes along with yard gates etc. Basically anything on or ajoining the Queens highway. This would include the stairwell (though climbing the stairs to check the floor would not have been his duty unless he suspects a crime has been committed or will be taking place, hence the reason he did so once he found the apron). So I feel he would have checked the stairwell.

Would he have seen the Apron/writing? Maybe but the question is, at that time, would he have noted its significance ? Not so sure he would have.

A beat Constable should conduct his beat at a speed of around 2 miles per hour. If something had held him up then he may have skipped the stairwell to make up time. As he could be checked by the Seargent at any moment on his beat it was imperitive he was where he should be. Of course though, if something had held him up then he should have noted it down and later present this incident. Seeing as Long didnt do this on the night I feel that he was either tellling the truth or cannot remember for sure (who can blame him) or that he was delayed by something not worth reporting......fly cuppa? It was also part of his duty to know every household member/shopkeeper/business premises on his beat and a cup of tea may have been a good community service act.....but Im just thinking aloud here....and off topic, sorry.

Basically what I am saying is that there could be a number of reasons why Long didnt see or didnt report seeing the apron at 2.20am.

Chris,

Did think of tailors chalk during my visit but was unable to obtain some.

Wouldnt it be hard to write with though?

Monty
:-)
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Monty

Why would tailor's chalk be difficult to write with? The point is that the type of chalk facilitates the ease with which a tailor is able to make a mark on a piece of cloth. So too it would be easy to write an inscription. Traditionally, tailor's chalk is triangular, or sometimes square, so it has a point to it, just like a normal piece of chalk, which would make it possible to write an inscription. It is though harder than the type of chalk used in the classroom, and thus as I say more suitable for chalking on a brick wall. See

http://www.fabricsandbuttons.com/notions/tailorschalk.html

All the best

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1439
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,

Because Tailors chalk is flat, even flatter at the edges.

Would it be able to cope with the 'stresses' of writing in a 'rounded schoolboy fashion' ?

Cheers,

Monty
:-)

Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 1375
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
I have found some tailors chalk. shh don't tell me mum i raided it out her sewing kit!
what does rounded schoolboy fashion mean?

Jenni

(Message edited by jdpegg on December 09, 2004)
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 383
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's possible that Jack did the same thing every time he killed and Long and Halse were the only ones to actually notice the rag lying in the doorway. If you are in a bad part of town and you see a dirty rag lying in a doorway with a few smears of blood on it you are not normally going to take much notice. It might be that they were the most perceptive of all. There may have been 4 other bloody rags that nobody ever noticed. And if Halse and Long were really unethical they could have said, "Hey lets just throw this thing away. If we turn it in we're going to have to explain why we didnt see it earlier." But they stuck their necks out and turned it in. We tend to forget in this age of cell phones, faxes, and instant everything that it may have taken some time for info about the two killings to percolate thru to the beat cops. They might not have known that anything significant had happened till well after the double event, and so would not have been alarmed by or taken notice of a dirty rag in a doorway.
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All this chit chat about how the murderer may have used tailor's chalk for the graffitus, but does anyone make the link between it and the symbols on Eddowes' face, and the fact that the ownership of the Imperial Club was associated with tailors?

Ripperologists love:
1. Cynicism, and
2. Speculation.

They don't much care for logic.



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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1440
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil,

The writing on the glaze came out blurry and bitty....like Swanson mentioned and not fresh like Halse mentioned. Swanson wasnt there and Halse was....thats my problem !

I'll tell you the passage at the inquest that interests me reagrding Halse.

Mr. Crawford: I am obliged to ask this question. Did you protest against the writing being rubbed out? - Witness: I did. I asked that it might, at all events, be allowed to remain until Major Smith had seen it. Why do you say that it seemed to have been recently written? - It looked fresh, and if it had been done long before it would have been rubbed out by the people passing. I did not notice whether there was any powdered chalk on the ground, though I did look about to see if a knife could be found.

Firstly the line that reads "It looked fresh, and if it had been done long before it would have been rubbed out by the people passing. Does he mean rubbed out in the conventional sense...with a cloth or rubbed out via bodily brushing against it over time? If the latter then glaze would be the perfect surface for that scenario.

Also the line "I did not notice whether there was any powdered chalk on the ground, though I did look about to see if a knife could be found. If recent then wouldnt there be powdered chalk ?

The problem I had Phil was that I didnt conduct my experiment on the actual doorway or on the inside of the jamb. The sepia colour would indeed appear black in the right lighting. If I remember correctly Eduardo Zinna (European Editor of Ripperologist) also visited the dwellings sometime in the 70s and he stated the doorway had sepia glazed brickwork then.

David,

Yes, Ive read A?R and do see the link. However the marks on Eddowes face are also related to the clerical world and are a shorthand symbol....so best not get carried away eh?

Philosophers love

1)wisdom

2)...it seems some rarely find it.

Monty...who knows logic.
:-)
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1179
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Monty et al.

Monty, if you were to use tailor's chalk, you wouldn't use the flat part of the chalk, you would be using the edge or more correctly the point, just as the tailor does. So instead of making marks on cloth, you make them on the wall.

Jenn, you ask what a round schoolboy's hand is. It is in fact, copperplate writing, as taught in school. Have a look at the example below. This might argue against the killer (if he wrote the inscription) having been a poor Polish Jew.

All my best

Chris

Copperplate
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 384
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Monty, I think I can clarify one of your questions. "If recent then wouldnt there be powdered chalk ?" It was raining the night of the double event.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1278
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Diana,but the writing was inside the building-not on the door but on the wall of the passage leading to the stairs.And it could be seen from outside so it must have been only a few feet in.It was at shoulder height and the lettering not more than an inch high.The piece of apron was immediately beneath the writing.The building was searched for any other clues or any other writing and none was found.
So it would look very like someone had popped inside,dropped the apron piece and written the text above it.Also in 1888 these were new buildings and I would have thought any other graffiti would have been noted down by police-or any other litter for that matter.
But still it has to be admitted that the ripper could simply have just happened upon the writing and decided to leave his card there.
Natalie
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Ripperologists love:
1. Cynicism, and
2. Speculation.

They don't much care for logic."

Or we need more than possible coincidence to excite us. the example you give is "interesting" but hardly provable and where does it take us but into "speculation"?

Phil
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 420
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David Radka wrote:

"but does anyone make the link between it and the symbols on Eddowes' face"

Hrmmm... I do believe there is one person out there who claims that the mutilations on Eddowes' face are tailor's symbols. But he has produced absolutely no evidence to support this, other than making up imaginary meanings for the alleged symbols that have no basis in reality.

Oh, but then you knew that, so why are you asking?

Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1441
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 4:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,

Yes, I accept the edge as the part that was used but my point is because tailors chalk is flat, thin and designed to go in one direction wouldnt it be hard to write with it in the style you show above?

Also, if just a corner was used wouldnt there be powdered chalk on the floor ?

Diana,

As Nat mentions, the graffito was inside the stairwell not out.

Cheers,
Monty
:-)
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice- Jack the Ripper
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 1377
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 4:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I feel some blatant vandalism coming on!

OK your going to get me in trouble. I had a go writing on brickwork with some tailors chalk - no chalk dust. does not rub off by hand am going to get in trouble now!! (from my parents for writing on their wall, ha ha!!) but this wasnt on pure brickwork it was painted so would it be easier to get off?
But seriously I guess it is easier to write in that quite ornate style if that is what you are used to doing?

Jenni
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 1379
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 5:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two things one when i say but this in the above post i mean the actual goulston st graffito.

secondly that took some getting off i had to use washing up liquid in the end!!
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 385
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that JTR didnt write the graffito.
1) The Douglas profile says no.
2) The only other written material which is taken seriously by anyone in the know is the Lusk letter. Having seen Chris' example of a rounded schoolboy hand, and facsimilies of the Lusk letter they are totally different. A handwriting analyst who posted a couple of years ago said the LL gave him chills. He'd never seen anything before that indicated such a degree of mental disturbance.
3). Given that Jack would have been writing on glazed brick with chalk, and producing very neat handwriting rather than a scrawl, he would have had to stand there a very long time to laboriously render the GSG, while hoping not to get caught. He may have been demented, but he was good at getting away.
Of course one could argue that once he was safely away from Mitre Square he wouldnt have been in much danger. First of all the news wouldnt trickle down to the beat cops very fast, and secondly he would be just a man standing in a doorway writing on the wall with chalk. What is there about that that would make anyone suspicious?

The boards have been bad before about arguments, but I have just carried it to a new height. I am now arguing with myself.

Who do you agree with? Diana 1 or Diana 2?
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 156
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Diana--
I think one of the great things about the board is the ability to get so many points of view and indulge in a little mind changing from time to time.

I'm starting to think that the GSG is indeed a red herring. If JTR did write it, what does that REALLY matter since 1)we're not sure exactly what was written and 2)even if we were, we can't figure out what- if anything - it means. We already know that he was there because of the apron so how does the GSG get us any place?

I think the police panicked, whether or not they thought the killer had written the graffito, because they thought that the message could be construed as racist and were very afraid of another Bloody Sunday debacle. With the level of anxiety that was around, who can blame them? Of course it's easy to say 20/20 that they should have waited to photograph the graffiti first but priorities were different for them.
Mags
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 386
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That graffito might have caused 20 more deaths if it had been left. Its easy for us to Monday morning quarterback.

Well, once I got started arguing with myself, at least I didn't call me ugly names or start haranguing myself.

But now I am rethinking why the apron piece wasnt found till 2:20.

If I am Jack, is it smart to go running down the road, panting and frantic looking right after the alarm has been raised? Or is it smarter to just amble along blending in? Is it smart to head straight back to where I live when there is the possibility of being followed? Or is it better to just wander around for awhile looking innocent until I see that the dust has begun to settle?
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 601
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Diana,

You might be interested in this 9 Sept 1888 Lloyd's Weekly account of the scene around the Chapman murder scene on Hanbury Street, from the Press Reports section:

As the day advanced and the Jewish East-end crowds congregated around the scene of the murder, and its neighbourhood became more leavened with English working men, the excitement grew; and, unfortunately, owing to the rumours about the individual "Leather Apron," took a rather nasty turn. Bodies of young roughs raised cries against the Jews, and many of the disreputable and jabbering women sided with them. This state of things caused several stand-up fights, thus putting a further and serious strain on the police, many of whom began to express their fears of rioting.

Describing the scene in the district last night, a correspondent says :- The excitement in Hanbury-street and the surrounding neighbourhood still continues, and extra police have been employed to keep a course for the traffic of the evening, but in this they are very much hampered by noisy crowds of men and boys crying "Down with the Jews." Sometimes there is a show of resistance, but the strong force of police on the spot are equal to the occasion, and promptly separate assailants. Just as our correspondent was writing a gang of young vagabonds marched down Hanbury-street shouting "Down with the Jews!" "It was a Jew who did it!" "No Englishman did it!" After these the police were prompt, and whenever there was a stand they quickly, and without ceremony, dispersed them. There have been many fights, but the police are equal to it, as men are held in reserve under cover, and when there is a row they rush out and soon establish order. As the night advances the disorderly mobs who openly express antipathy to the Jews increase, and a request has been forwarded to headquarters for extra men. This request has been promptly attended to, and men have been sent.


One point--PC Long didn't find the apron until 2.55. Both he and Halse had passed by the area at 2.20 but didn't see anything.

Cheers,
Dave

(Message edited by oberlin on December 11, 2004)
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 387
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops! Thanks for the correction. So he could have put it there any time after 2:20 assuming they didn't miss seeing it.

If wandering around and blending in was part of his strategy then it suddenly doesnt seem odd at all that the apron piece was found that late. What about the man who accosted Cross and Paul at the Nichols crime scene? Beleive I'm going to look that up!
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 602
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right, assuming that they didn't miss it, anytime after 2.20. . .so the Ripper could have remained in the area for anytime between app. thirty-five minutes to seventy minutes. Maybe he did, but I think things went differently since, in response to questioning, Halse testified that he could have missed it. So the whole lingering idea is dependent on what PC Long saw. I think Long might very well have missed it too, or as Monty suggested, seen it but not thought anything of it. I'm leaning towards the idea that the Ripper went through Goulston Street straight away after murdering Kate Eddowes.

But whether or not he did, we're still left with whether the graffiti is a communication from the murderer. But really, once again we've got to rely solely on Long, since he was the only person to see how the apron originally lay in relation to the writing, and it's Long who's making the connection between apron and writing. I'm not saying he has to be wrong, I'm just making the point that everybody has to rely on his powers of observation here, which I think are debatable.

Cheers,
Dave
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 389
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The graffiti and escape method are really tied.

If Jack's MO was run and hide then he didnt have time to stand around in the rain writing something very neatly on glazed brick with chalk.

If his MO was stay and blend then it becomes more of a likelihood.

I think the one scenario you cant have is to suggest that he used "run and hide" and also wrote the GSG.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1290
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The graffiti makes no sense to me.But if it was written by the murderer it made sense to him.We can"t figure out what it means.To me this might well provide a clue to the state of mind of whoever wrote it and if it was JtR it tells us that he may well have been thinking cryptically
-the message,placed directly above the piece of
apron that belonged to the Mitre square victim.
JtR was probably seen in St James Passage by three Jews who had just left a Jewish Club which also lay close to the Great Synagogue. Thanks David for providing that information from Lloyds weekly that clearly shows that the Jewish community was "being blamed" for the murders in
the early weeks of September.[ie before the muder in Mitre Square].

In the Ultimate Jack the Ripper it describes PC Long"s findings as follows:
At 2.55 am he found in the bottom of common stairs leading to no 108 and 119 Goulston Street Buildings a piece of a bloodstained apron,and above it written in chalk, the words,"The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing."
which he reported etc
If the ripper was schizoid and thinking sybollically as happens in the psychotic episodes
[as well as the non psychotic sometimes] he could easily have been coolly detached from his "work"and telling people they wouldnt be blamed for something they did not do.After all to him in his deluded thinking he may have considered he was behaving under orders from a higher power!
Natalie
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"But whether or not he did, we're still left with whether the graffiti is a communication from the murderer..."

As a piece of anti-semitic propaganda, the graffito means something - it actually makes sense. It's an typical working class/East End double negative to the effect that "The Jews are to blame [for all our troubles]!"

It doesn't need a serial killer to write that, and a killer who wanted to leave that message had other more effective means at his disposal... he's literate and the message is not specific to time and place. Why not write it on a scrap of paper and pin it to Eddowes' body(or that of the immediately murdered victim whoever she was). people have been (are?) prepared to consider some of the letters as from JtR so the supposition that he might have made his purposes clear/left messages in a more precise way, is not unfounded.

For myself, I have yet to see a convincing (and straightforward) motive or explanation for THAT exact graffito as a message from JtR. Who is it addressed to? How is it to be read?

Almost all explanations of the graffito, usually complex, form part of the sophistical reasoning and arguments in support of a particular suspect - such as, Druitt as a schoolmaster might habitually have carried chalk with him and written in a round hand. this is circumstantial at best.

In the absence of a better connection to the murderer, I remain of the view that the GSG was simply pre-existent, racist incitement.

Happy to discuss further,

Phil
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1294
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil,one thing people forget sometimes is that the Goulston Street dwelling was inhabited almost totally-if not totally by Jews!!!I just cant picture a scene where Jewish people are going in and out of this [then modern]tenement block,where according to police there was no other graffiti in the building,and nodding indulgently as they passed such "typical" anti Jewish East End propaganda.Especially as some seem to think it had been there for weeks-----weeks!!!!
Natalie
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 2:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Strange things happen - people will sometimes treat an item such as the graffito as "someone else's problem. No one does anything about it.

How much in plain sight was it anyway. Two policemen appear (potentially at least) to have missed it.

It could also be "old" in the sense that it had been written earlier - ie some hours old - that night but NOT by JtR. I think it may have been older than that though.

Phil
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1302
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well Phil,Warren certainly got his skates on over it!He wouldn"t allow it to remain there a minute longer than it had to in case it caused an uprising!
I cant imagine the inhabitents ignoring it really.Not when it was the only writing in their entrance hall.
Natalie
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Natalie

I believe this was one of a number of entranceways into Wentworth Model Dwellings, so it was not their only "entrance hall" -- more of a passageway, among other passageways. I do agree, however, that it seems unlikely that a tenement inhabited by Jews would allow an offensive inscription evidently aimed at them to remain on the wall for long. Just as if I saw a piece of scrawl that said, "Chris George is a putz" I wouldn't want it to remain either!

All the best

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 1:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Many of those Jews, recent immigrants from eastern Europe in part, may not have read English, or been literate at all. WE cannot make out the grammatical construction of the sentence, so it may have made little sense.

We honestly know little of the lighting conditions in the entryways, though Tabram's body was glimpsed but not recognised for what it was by one witness in similar circumstances. We do not know how much other chalked graffiti there was on walls in that or other buildings in the neighbourhood.

If the structure of wentworth dwellings is as I think it was, then the entry and staircase led to a number of landings and front doors to dwellings. In that case, I think this entry - one of a series, would have served JUST those dwellings - it would therefore have been the only entrance/exit for those families.

I don't think at that period the block would have had inter-connecting landings, or long corridors, as 1920s Council blocks of flats in London sometimes did.

My position remains this - if the apron had not been flung below it, no one would have associated the graffito with JtR.

The police almost certainly missed its presence until alerted by the apron.

It was removed by senior policemen because its juxtaposition with the apron might have given rise to civil unrest/racial violence in the area.

There is some evidence (not conclusive) that the graffito was "old". I take the point that "old" is unlikely to mean weeks (though it could), but I am certain in my own mind that evidence and reason support the contention that the graffito pre-dated the apron and was NOT the work of JtR.

Phil
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1308
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil,there are in fact several references to the building being searched by police for other clues and none being found.Also that no other graffiti was found in that particular building by those same police who searched the building.
Natalie
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Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse

Post Number: 141
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Incidentally, in my opinion you might also describe the handwriting of the Lusk letter as a "round schoolboy's hand". Or has this already been discussed? Was it actually described as being "neatly written?"

Rob
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert

The Lusk and Openshaw letters including the address on the Openshaw envelope are both written in a scrawly sort of copperplate. I discussed the similarities in the writing between the Lusk and Openshaw letters and the graffito in a post of December 15, 2004 in the "Goulston Street Graffito and Psychopathology" thread.

All my best

Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1454
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil,

Off topic.

Please register mate.

I find your posts most interesting, relevant and inspiring.

I just wish I could mail you !

Monty
:-)

PS Last post of yours.....absolutely agree.
Fear. Fear attracts the fearful. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally.
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 170
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, Phil, what Monty said,please (that's 5 words+).
Mags
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 1356
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 7:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil,

You wrote:

'It was removed by senior policemen because its juxtaposition with the apron might have given rise to civil unrest/racial violence in the area.'

But as soon as the apron piece was discovered, it was presumably removed immediately, so no one (apart from the police) need have known, in the immediate aftermath, that it had ever been there.

I must admit that I do have a bit of trouble with the coincidence of the killer just happening to drop the apron piece beneath that particular example of graffito, considering the recent press speculation about a Jewish ripper on the loose.

And if the killer dropped it there because he happened to see the message and made a conscious decision to take advantage of its presence, he would have been equally capable of writing it himself.

Love,

Caz
X

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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 2386
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Monty and Mags.

For heaven's sake, Phil... please do register!
Your posts belong to the very few voices of reason in this case. You are extremely needed.

All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aw shucks!!!

Thank you very much for your encouragement, friends. Though why you should see my posts as "inspiring" I'm not sure. I try to be as interesting as I can, but I have felt that compared to the ace researchers and originators of genuinely new material (not to mention the published authors and editors) that I was very much one of the punters. Thanks all the same. I DO, VERY MUCH like the site and intend to be around for quite a while (well, until I exhaust your patience anyway...).

I do intend to register, I promise, but work is quite demanding right now, and my PC at home is playing up where e-mails are concerned. 0nce I have that fixed, registering will be my top priority.

I look forward to hearing from you then, Monty.

Phil
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 1416
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil,

let me tell you that is high praise indeed from this lot!!! But seriously I hope you do register.

Graffito...

Jenni

Ho! HO! Ho!!!!!!!
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1459
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil,

Insirping because they bring in new ideas that lead me to ponder on subjects which, because I have been here for years and seen it before, have become stagnant or repetative to me.

Caz,

Good post and something I hadnt thought of. Of course, you'd have to put a gag on the Whitechapel telegraph !

Monty
:-)
Fear.
Fear attracts the fearful. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt.
Fear.
Fear is my ally.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 678
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Natalie and others,

The graffito may have gone unnoticed for some time. Remember that the letters were less than one inch tall! However, Warren's concern may have stemmed from the fact that several police officers (and probably soon, reporters) were buzzing around it and making a fuss over it. Indeed, it would not be overlooked by inhabitants for long!

Andy S.
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Monty. Your words are much appreciated, and I'm pleased to have done some good.

Last few days, my posts have not been appearing at all - dunno why.

Anyway thanks for the support, I'm very much enjoying the site and will be around for a while. Hope to register soon.

Thanks again,

Phil
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Caz - you wrote:

'It was removed by senior policemen because its juxtaposition with the apron might have given rise to civil unrest/racial violence in the area.'

But as soon as the apron piece was discovered, it was presumably removed immediately, so no one (apart from the police) need have known, in the immediate aftermath, that it had ever been there.

people have to deal with the situation as they find it. there was A POSSIBILITY that apron and graffito might be associated either (a) in fact, or (b) in the minds of people. They could not take the risk that rumour would take hold of the wording (if left extant) and build it into a furore. So they removed apron and graffito.

There are only two reasons for Warren's and Arnold's concern and subsequent action - cover-up/conspiracy which is HIGHLY unlikely to the point of absurdity and can be discounted (unless you are Stephen Knight or Melvyn Fairlclough) - or fear of the "mob". The latter is by far the more likely.

we have the leisure to sit back judiciously and say "oh no, there would have been no riot". In 1888, THEY had to to deal with the risks as they saw them, without 20/20 hindsight and with the knowledge of the recent Leather Apron scare.

Phil
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 1365
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil,

I didn't mean to suggest that the police were wrong to fear a riot over the graffito, had it been left a moment longer than it was.

I merely pointed out that if no one apart from the police knew about the apron piece that appeared to accompany it (until the press got hold of the story after the removal of both items), then any civil unrest resulting from the graffito not being erased when it was, could have had nothing to do with its juxtaposition with the apron, but entirely down to the local population's interpretation of the message itself.

As Monty gently reminds me, however, just one private citizen seeing the apron as the police were in the process of removing it, would have had the potential for spreading the news and causing trouble.

Love,

Caz
X

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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 1229
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Caz, Monty, Phil et al.

Caz, I agree with your assessment of the situation. I would suggest that it was the on-the-spot existence of the graffito, next to something known to have been removed from a Ripper victim, in a doorway to a mostly Jewish tenement, that led to the graffito being erased because of the voiced fear by Warren that a riot might ensue against the Jews. The fact is that the information that the graffito contained ultimately was reported, but it was less important then -- another proof, if any were needed, that there was no conspiracy, since the police could conceivably have covered up the existence of the graffito entirely.

All the best

Chris

(Message edited by ChrisG on December 21, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 416
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Checkable Detail: I believe there are books on the history of graffiti.
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Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey

Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Diana,

If there are indeed books on the history of graffiti, someone please point me in their direction. There are none in our little library here - have checked and double checked.

Bestest,

Lyn
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 195
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lindsey-


This is a link to the Library of Congress' catalog:

http://catalog.loc.govI searched "graffiti" as a subject and found several books on graffiti in London. Your local public library should be able to get most anything through inter library loan.(be sure to give them the ISBN if at all possible, it's THE most important bit of info).

Your friendly neighborhood Librarian--Mags
Mags
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Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey

Post Number: 124
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Mags!

Will check into it...

Lyn
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"...making up imaginary meanings for the alleged symbols that have no basis in reality."

>>This is purely Mr. Norder's opinion. They certainly had a basis in the murderer's reality, and can be shown to be directly related to the Duke Street sighting and the graffitus, and indirectly to the Berner Street crime and the Lusk letter.


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