| Author |
Message |
    
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 587
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 10:26 am: |       |
Hi All,
I’m just catching up with this thread – haven’t visited since before Christmas.
Hi Diana,
One might have known with ‘great exactitude’ where the boundary was between City and Met if one was situated on, or very close to that boundary. It is a tantalising idea that Jack, having made it his business to know his own territory very well indeed, chose to enter City territory while the Met’s was at its hottest.
Hi Glenn,
I’m not sure what you meant when you argued that a smart Jack would surely have considered such an approach – moving from one police territory to another – on other occasions if he did it this time. We only know what Jack did, we can’t know what else he may or may not have considered doing before or between attacks, from what he never actually put into practice for whatever reason.
For example, if Jack considered it a smart thing to change from Met to City in order to achieve his goal on that particular night, under very specific circumstances (ie an attack on Stride shortly after midnight that failed to result in his signature mutilations), why would he necessarily have tried this approach on previous occasions, when one victim was finally encountered and mutilated, as Leanne has pointed out, considerably later in the night?
And how could Jack have considered the same approach on subsequent occasions, after getting away with it once? It wouldn’t be the same approach with the same advantages the next time, because the police in both territories would be ready for him if he tried it again, in whatever order.
I’m now looking again at the times of the attacks, and wondering if the early encounter with Stride just felt ‘wrong’ to Jack once he’d begun, because he hadn’t allowed himself the time it would take to get suitably psyched up for the job in hand. Depending on his adrenaline levels, plus any substances he may have been using, including alcohol, he could have been a very different Jack at midnight from the Jack who killed and mutilated just a few hours later. Even accepting that his signature would not have altered, just about everything else, including his confidence, behaviour and reactions could have been inconsistent from one crime scene to the next, depending as much on his biological clock and inner self as any of the external circumstances.
Love,
Caz
|
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 328
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
All the newspapers I have been looking at in the aftermath of the Annie Chapman murder talk about the enormous police presence in the area of Hanbury Street and Spitalfields. It seems to me then that Jack had already been forced to move his centre of operations further south by the very fact that the streets closer to "home" were just too hot for him to operate on. After the Stride murder, with the desperate need to mutilate on him, and with his instinct for self-preservation working overtime, it seems to me that he would avoid going in the direction of either of the previous killings, as these areas would be likely to contain a high police presence, so that would only leave him with the possibilities of going west or south, and south would likely take him too far from the area in which he felt comfortable. I would imagine then that heading west was less a matter of trying to move to a new police jurisdiction, more of going in the only direction he felt was left open to him. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 927
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 11:02 am: | |
Caz, Alan!
I am actually not sure what I meant either, Caz -- I can't really even recall writing that! But I probably did, so it is unfortunately one of those premature aging things... I suffer from a lack of B-12 anyway...
I can't really argue with you on the matter. We are of course falling into the areas of uncertainties and speculations there -- I have pointed that out myself; we can't naturally know his intentions.
I think Alan is right on the money, though.
You gave words to my thoughts exactly here, Alan -- unfortunately I wasn't able to express it. But I think that sounds quite reasonable.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 564
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 11:37 am: | |
Hi Folks,
Like Caz, just catching up on this thread.
My views ? IF Jack did for Liz then the reason for his movement to Mitre sq, for me, is as Frank states....St Boltophs. Its also the reason I feel Kate went in that direction.
I also agree with Alan for his movement (again, if Jack did kill Eddowes, but for fun lets assume he did) south.
But, and this is what grates me as any regular will know, why did the Met police, on 19th October '88 saturate an area which includes Nichols and Chapmans sites with House to house and pamphlets but the area around Strides site was NOT included.
Any ideas cos Im still stumped.
I can understand Eddowes site being missed for the reason that its a City Police area...but Stride ??
Monty
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1768
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Hi Monty
Maybe they reasoned the same way as some of the folks here - that Jack's first couple of murders would have been close to where he lived, and that the heavy police presence had driven him as far afield as Berner St and Mitre Square. So they only searched where they thought he was living.
Robert |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 573
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 7:35 am: | |
Robert,
I thought the same.
But nevertheless, its a rather small minded operation. A chance missed. An area which may have included a bolthole/safehouse not thouroughly searched nor questioned.
There has to be a reason and because the police didnt reckon he was living there would have been a poor one on my list.
Berner st and Mitre sq are not really that far away are they? Not in an age of Shanks's pony.
But in the most populated area in London (perhaps the Commomwealth) I do have a degree of sympathy for the Rossers and their task of trying to stop this man. That said, according to Dew, the police were only stop searching those that were not recognised...another thing which I find staggering !!
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1782
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 6:51 pm: | |
Monty, I'm stumped too!
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 602
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:07 pm: | |
Stumped?
Monty??
With his reputation???
Howzat????
Bingo!
Love,
Caz
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 388
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | |
In my mind I always thought that Jack went to the City of London purely because the Met area would have been overran by police after Liz's murder, so why not go to the City area? It makes sense. No-one would even be looking for him there.
Must say though, if Monty's stumped there isn't much hope for the rest of us. Someone needs to slap him out of it. 
Sarah |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 241
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 1:26 pm: | |
Its a good thought. He wouldn't have had to understand where the borders were, only recognize that one spot was crawling with police and the other wasn't.
It also reinforces the idea that Whitechapel was his comfort zone. Only when driven by extreme frustration was he willing to step outside it. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 584
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 7:22 am: | |
Robert,Caz,
I play too deep to be stumped !
How big is Whitchapel ?? Its not as if he was moving to another counrty to kill. His comfort zone would have been far more than just Whitechapel.
The Met would be on their toes, so would the City. They dont want a mess like this on their manor. I dont think it was a thought out choice at all in terms of cause Police admin mayhem.
Just that the spot was a right one for murder.
Monty
PS Sarah, slap me out of it.....dont go there !! |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 394
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 5:52 am: | |
Monty,
Only under extreme circumstances do we see him leave Whitechapel. If you think his 'comfort zone' was further afield than just Whitechapel please explain why. He only killed one outside of there and that was when the police presence was overwhelming in Whitechapel.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 591
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:05 am: | |
Sarah,
2 (possibly 3) murders commited in Spitalfields,
1 murder in St Georges in the East,
1 in Aldgate,
1 on the Whitechapel/Mile end border,
Possibly 1 or 2 in Whitechapel.
....and they call them the Whitechapel murders !!!! Why not the Spitalfields murders ???
I say look further east. Reasons I cannot give at the moment. Sorry to pull a 'AR' but I would be stepping on toes. But if you look into it there seems some activity out that area pre 31/8/88.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 398
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:25 am: | |
Monty,
Ok, I'll let you have that one. In some dilussional part of my brain I was under the impression that Spitalfields was a district of Whitechapel. My mistake. I suppose I meant the Met area as opposed to Whitechapel.
My geography is absolutely terrible Monty so, errr, when you say further east you mean....?
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 593
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:38 am: | |
Sarah,
Dont worry...most blondes struggle with direction.
The Met area...ahhhh, thats a different story. If you follow my earlier posts on this thread then you'll note that its something that frustates me. Yes, he may have been flushed out of his comfort Zone. But he certainly knew how to get around.
Further East ?? I mean Mile end, Poplar end. Check the assaults, victim movements and lodgings prior to 31/8/88 and post 9/11/88. Also check out lodging details for one of the Victims inbetween.
Come back Monday and tell me what you got.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 400
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:54 am: | |
Monty,
I thought it was men who struggle with directions!!
Sorry, I didn't mean to frustrate you. How do we know that he knew his way around outside of the Met area though? We don't. Just because he ventured out of it when the police were all over his 'comfort zone' doesn't mean he knew where he was going.
I will look into what you have said but knowing me I probably won't find much.
Sarah
P.S. "One of the victims in between" .... err any clues? |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 595
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:01 pm: | |
Sarah,
Nah, us men just refuse to ask for directions.
I never said he knew where he was going. just that he knew how to get around.
Clues....ok, a BIG one.
33 Dorset Street.
There, dont say I dont help you....and dont say its cos you're a blonde Babe. it dont wash with me !!
Monty
PS Im off till Monday so dont post anything till then...I dont want to miss it !!! |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 402
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
I'm off until Monday too so I'm not likely to post anything until then either.
Did I ever say you didn't help me?? Ta, although I my brain is suffering severe overload at present, what with doing an OU course in psychology and learning spanish (ooo get me!!) it may just melt!!
Sarah |
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 63
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
It seems pretty clear that Jack's hunting grounds was the East End of london, as simple as that.
I doubt he even realized he stepped into the City area when he went after Eddowes.
|
Michael Blayne Raney
Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 6:40 pm: | |
Au contrair.....I think he knew exactly where he was all the time. I also think he knew where the police were all the time.
Why they didn't search the areas surrounding the other sites creates many questions for me. Like maybe they knew a whole lot more about WHO they THOUGHT he was, than we know now.
I think Monty is on to something.  I hope Sarah finds the information that he is talking about.
Mikey
P.S. Sarah, don't ever slap my Monty around!!!!!! 
|
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 956
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 8:50 pm: | |
"It seems pretty clear that Jack's hunting grounds was the East End of london, as simple as that.
I doubt he even realized he stepped into the City area when he went after Eddowes."
I go along with Kris on this one.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 135
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 9:23 pm: | |
Hi Diana,
"It also reinforces the idea that Whitechapel was his comfort zone. Only when driven by extreme frustration was he willing to step outside it."
Not necessarily so, it could also simply have been a practical thing. He could have gone where it was quiet (as far as special police activities were concerned). And why would it have been necessary to travel far, when he could get what he wanted nearby? Besides, he couldn't travel far very fast. I think we should remember that he also didn't have any experience with serial killing.
All the best,
Frank |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 404
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 6:21 am: | |
Ahhh, the pressure, the pressure!! I feel like a complete dunce. I've only spent a small amount of time on what Monty was on about as I've been so busy this weekend. The only person I could connect to Poplar, etc. was Liz Stride and she also lived at 35 Dorset Street and one time. Also Annie Chapman lived at 30 and then 35 Dorset Street and separate times. I could not find any reference to a 33 Dorset Street but then I couldn't spend much time on it as I said I was very busy this weekend.
I'm going to have another look right now at some things so I may be back, if not then I may have shot myself.
Sarah |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 405
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 6:37 am: | |
Has this got something to do with Kosminski by any chance as he seemed to have a lot of dealings with Mile End, Poplar, etc. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 339
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 7:09 am: | |
Sarah, just out of interest, the Daily News of 6th October gave Liz Stride's address as 35 Dorset Street, but to the best of my knowledge this is the only time it was listed as such. Some authors (Stephen Knight and our own AP!) have given this address in their books, but the more generally accepted address is 38 Dorset Street as reported by both the Times and the Telegraph. I have also seen Liz's address listed as 33 Dorset Street, but I don't know where that address comes from and have always assumed that it was from a misprint of 38. (There is also the address given by the Central News Agency of 36 Devonshire Street, which would indeed be further east towards the Mile End and Poplar districts!)
I have no idea if any of this has anything to do with what Monty is talking about. |
