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Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 145
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 7:40 am: |       |
>>Which may well be a more substantial investment for some than for others.
I agree...It doesn't stuka dive into 40,000 or so speculations on the WM, based on one persons' lifetime spent reading cases about psychotics and fabricating an all-purpose perpetrator from the clinical texts, complete with assumed motives and methodology, that are not and will never be taken seriously.
Anticipated Riots
Blackmail Schemes
Pogrom West
Jews With Telepathic Skills
Tailoring Marks
Henpecked Schlimazzel Slashes Strangers...who would ever guess?
It is a good story,Neil.
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Neil Cooper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 5:30 pm: | |
I haven't read the article, as I have an essay on Berlin's roll in the Cold War to write this week. If there is a link between these two- and who knows, it seems to me that someone like a scholar or journalist is more likely to be aware of the cornish legend than a working man. I don't know, what do you reckon as to what type of person the killer was? I'm more & more inclined to think he was working-class, self-educated or uneducated and probably introverted and a poor communicator. I certainly don't think he was an aristocrat or top-ranking surgeon. Thoughts? |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 147
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Neil...The Jack The Tinker legend was,as most legends are,an oral one that eventually made its way to the printed word. All "classes" of people would be familiar with a legend like this [ just like ghost stories here in the US or even in the UK...].
Thats a hard call,Neil,as to what sort of person he was,character wise...In reading posts here and elsewhere,JTR runs the gamut...psychotic...sexual serial killer...ritualist...conspiratorial henchman...you name it.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1606
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 6:50 am: | |
While I’ve been reading through Old Bailey transcripts I have kept a log of the development of the nick-name ‘Jack’ when associated with criminal activity. It is quite interesting. All the names below have appeared at the Old Bailey charged with serious crimes, most were hung… and not one of them was actually named Jack, but many of them carried the forename of ‘John’.
Starting in the early 1600’s with:
Jack -a - Nape
Great Jack
Blackguard Jack 1698
Black Jack 1718
Col. Jack 1725
Moco Jack 1732
Crab Jack 1733
Mollying Jack 1733
Jack the Hatter 1733
Snary Jack 1734
Gartering Jack 1734
Parliament Jack 1736
Scotch Jack 1737
Irish Jack 1740
Captain Jack 1740
Black Jack 1741
Jack the Sailor 1742
Giffling Jack 1750
Country Jack 1751
Gissling Jack 1751
Spanish Jack 1752
Black Jack 1753
Jack above Ground 1763
Irish Jack 1768
Battersea Jack 1769
Blind Jack 1772
Scotch Jack 1795
Hellfire Jack 1780
Yankee Jack 1783
Banbury Jack 1784
Jack the Painter 1784
Bricklane Jack 1785
Jack the Gardener 1785
Jubilee Jack 1785
Mad Jack 1785
Jack the Barber 1787
Long Jack 1792
Turnpike Jack 1793
Long Jack 1798
Kingston Jack 1799
Scotch Jack 1814
Saucy Jack 1821
Louse Jack 1823.
The released records of the Old Bailey end soon after this date. |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 438
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 3:08 pm: | |
Hi AP,
Quite the impressive list there. Were these all listed in addition to their normal names, or did some people refuse to give real names?
I wonder if Jack-a-Nape is a reference to William de la Pole somehow. Hellfire Jack is an especially impressive name. Mad Jack isn't so bad either.
And the Saucy Jack one is particularly interesting given the famous 1888 postcard.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1611
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
Thanks Dan
almost all are listed with real names, plus some with other nick-names.
Yes, I liked Hellfire Jack as well.
I will check the Saucy Jack one again and let you know what the cicumstances were. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Dan,
Here is the only case at the Old Bailey where the nick-name ‘Saucy Jack’ is evidenced. Not very informative I’m afraid:
(OB 1821)
Original Text:
618. EDWARD BOLTON and JOHN WILLIAMS were indicted for stealing, on the 23d of March, one tea kettle, value 3 s., the goods of Hannah Fall Bannister, widow.
H. F. Bannister. I am a widow, and live in Plumbree-street, Bloomsbury. The prisoners and another boy, all three were dressed at chimney sweepers - came to my house, saying they came to sweep the chimnies. I said I wanted no sweeps. Bolton kept me in conversation, saying
"May we come to-morrow?" - and while I was talking, the other, who is not taken, snatched the kettle up off the fire, and ran away with it.
RICHARD ROWE WIEKS. I am a constable. On the 23d of March, I was coming by - the prosecutrix informed me that she had detained Bolton. I took him, and asked who the other two were - he said one was the coloured boy Williams, and the other was Saucy Jack. I went into Short's-gardens, and found Williams and another in an old iron shop, with the kettle. They threw it down and ran away. I took Williams the same night.
(Property produced and sworn to.)
BOLTON'S Defence. I met the other lad. He asked if I wanted work. He said he had six jobs to do, and I might have half the profit. It is a rule to help each other. I followed him, as I thought, to sweep the chimney - and while I was talking to him, he snatched the kettle.
WILLIAMS'S Defence. I saw a mob, went home, and when I was at tea the constable came and took me.
BOLTON - GUILTY. Aged 18.
Whipped and Discharged.
WILLIAMS - GUILTY. Aged 16.
Transported for Seven Years.
Second Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Common Sergeant.
But the name ‘Saucy Jack’ does figure in some other cases, but as the name of a ship. I have rifled quickly through my shipping papers and have the following vessels:
Captain Anderson
Edward
Saucy Jack
1893
PRICE nearly succeeded in capturing an American privateer schooner SAUCY JACK
1814
Andrew Jackson issues proclamation at Mobil, Alabama, calling upon free Africans “to rally around the standard of the eagle” in the Anglo-American War of 1812, which, when won by the U.S., will only serve to continue the enslavement of their African compatriots.
The British burn Washington, DC. The African American vigilance committee of Philadelphia is called upon to help defend the city; 2,500 American Africans participate.
Napoleon abdicates; Louis XVIII is King of France.
The S.S. Saucy Jack carries off Africans and attacks British cruiser off coast of Africa.
John Cooper (captain of the ship “Saucy Jack,” a privateer taking British prizes off Edenton, N. C., in 1782
Thomas, cooper, on board the sch'r Saucy Jack, from Martinique, at sea. Issue of July 2, 1816. N. R. 9.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
The good old ship 'Saucy Jack' was also employed on the Australian run between 1860 and 1877, from London docks. I'm waiting for more info on this vessel.
This next one is a harmless old coaster who got wrecked when an aspiring author put a glass of brandy down on her:
August 28th SAUCY JACK. (TENBY). Smack. 32 tons.(Bt Brixham 1875). Off Caldey Island.
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 5:56 pm: | |
Ah, the famous tea kettle! I think I feel a horror story coming on:
The ghost of Saucy Jack roams the earth looking for the Tea Kettle of Doom til at last he finds it-much the worse for wear- in a hovel off Dorset Street, and wreaks his grisly revenge from Beyond.
Case Closed.
Mags |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 345
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 10:32 pm: | |
Mags,
Case closed? Your solution invoking a poltergeist rather than a psychopath is not going to play well in certain quarters I would think.
Don. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 8:17 am: | |
Did I forget to mention that Saucy Jack was a psychopath who knew that there were tailoring marks on the kettle's spout (that could only be read by Jewish butchers) which proved that Dr. Gull was really the captain of an alien ship from the planet Connaccont?
And, I managed to bring this theory in for UNDER six millon dollars!
Mags |
Neil Cooper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Blimey, that's quite a list. You could add to that 291 people with the given name Jack on the Old Bailey Proceedings, such as Jack ketch, the hangman who was himself hung for murder. The original text is quite interesting-
"Now follows a bloody Murther committed by one in Whitechappel; as soon as a Bayliff had told him that he arrested him, he with a strange Weapon run the Officer into the belly, and made a pass at another, but though he mist his body, he hit his clothes: This Hector with new supplies, was quickly secur'd; and when one told him that he had kill'd the Bayliff, he repli'd, if I have not I wish I had, and being sent from the Justice of Peace to Newgate, he told his Guard, if he had not killed him he should have gone to Prison on foot, but now in a Coach; but for all he made so slight on't then, he was in a more serious and sensible humour at the Bar, and labour'd to excuse it with all the Rhetorick he had, and all was too little, for the Jury brought him in guilty, and Jack Ketch will make him free.
As an aside, forcing myself to bring mention this again; John/Jack Sheppard, who is for some reason listed as Joseph Sheppard for his trial.
Original text is at http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/html_units/1670s/t16760114-7.html |
Timsta
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 11:05 am: | |
"Saucy Jack 1821"?
Very interested in this one AP. You have any more information?
Regards
Timsta |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
Timsta
The combination of 'Saucy' with 'Jack' seems to have its origins in the 17th Century, usually in regard to ships, seafaring or sailors, but not always, as the follwing quotes show:
'His servant maid assaulted a woman whose cow had trespassed on his land and the servant was ordered before the court, but he appeared in her behalf refusing to allow her to come to court. He was indicted on fourteen counts, among the charges brought against being the following: That he had said "that the government was such as was not to be subjected unto." He called the magistrates "Just Asses" - He called a freeman in open court, "saucy boy and Jack-an-Apes" - He charged the court with acting the second part of Plymouth magistrates, who as he said "condemned him in the chimney corner ere they heard him speak" - When the Governor said "all you that own the King take away Gorton and carry him to prison," he replied "all you own the King take away Coddington and carry him to prison" &c. Having already suffered imprisonment, he was now sentenced to be whipped, and went soon to Providence.
The Boston Massacre took place in America. Five colonists in a crowd shouting insults at British soldiers, were killed when the troops opened fire. Captain Preston and the seven men under his command were tried and Preston and five of the soldiers were acquitted of manslaughter. The two guilty men were branded on the hand. The men were defended by John Adams, future President and who’s cousin had been a leader of the mob. In their defence he said that the soldiers had been assaulted by a “motley rabble of saucy boys, Negroes and mulattoes, Irish teagues and outlandish Jack Tarres'
I have found no other reference to Saucy Jack in Old Bailey trial transcripts, but as I've already mentioned, the released transcripts only go up to the 1830's... when the later trial transcripts are released I believe it will give us a much better insight into the crimes of Jack the Ripper, and may well provide the resource to identify him.
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 3:42 am: | |
I wonder if Jack-a-Nape is a reference to William de la Pole somehow.
That seems a little academic. William de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk was murdered in 1450. But did not the word "jackanapes" enter the language thereafter? My Chambers says the word is archaic, origin uncertain. Anyone know more.
Suffolk interests me given my Wars of the Roses researches.
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 452
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 3:17 pm: | |
Most sources I see have jackanapes coming from Jack Napis as a name used against William de la Pole as a traitor who got captured and killed fleeing the country. Some of the other sources AP posted here (not sure which thread offhand) seem to use Jackanapes in similar ways.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
Hi AP & Dan
As usual, this continues to be a most interesting discussion, if one that is inexhaustible in finding names and terms that use the first name "Jack."
AP, I would doubt if the name "Saucy Jack" originated in the seventeenth century... the name could have gone back to Medieval or Saxon times, though we have yet to find written record to prove it was used that early.
Certainly, as we have seen, "Jack" is a name for everyman and almost universal, as we have recorded, so it's very hard to pin down the origin of the name. If as many of us think, the "Dear Boss" letter writer was either a prankster or a newspaperman "Jack the Ripper" could have been just a handy handle for the killer that was in the tradition of other names that use the first name "Jack" going back to those Medieval and Saxon times.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1654
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
Thanks Chris
you are right, it is an interesting thread.
I'll see later tonight how far back I can put 'saucy jack' in time.
My gut feeling is that the name originated in the American Colonies.
I did have some excellent examples but I just find that I've lost them!
Down south a 'Saucy Jack' inherited a considerable fortune and squandered it on the cards.
Nobody seems to have picked up on the 'Jack' I discovered who was an early 'automaton' in clock making. Every clock had - and has - a 'Jack'.
He was called 'Jack the Smiter', and has history going back to the 13th Century. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 8:51 pm: | |
Hi AP
At Wimborne Minister where Montague John Druitt is buried, there is a twenty-four hour 14th century astronomical clock, which shows the sun and moon orbiting the earth, inside the church and outside is the "Quarterjack" or grenadier in scarlet uniform chiming the quarter hour. Here is a shot of the clock as it appears inside the church -- couldn't find a shot of our "Jack" unfortunately 
Again AP I can see no real basis why you think the name "Saucy Jack" is American in origin any more than it could be English. The designation "Saucy" surely goes back to the middle ages so possibly "Saucy Jack" was a name at least spoken in the British Isles back then, along with Saucy Maud, Saucy Dicky, etc, even if we have yet to find documentary proof of such early usage of the name "Saucy Jack." Hmmmmm? 
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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