|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:13 pm: |       |
Monty,
The guy would have had to have been without morals to do something like that and the only way people are without morals is if they were never taught right from wrong, or they were lacking in emotion for some reason or something else. There is always a reason for people having no morals. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1291
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 1:49 pm: | |
Hi Monty
I'm keeping an open mind about what kind of guy he was. Certainly there are some jokey elements - maybe related, maybe not. For example, look at the poor old watchmen :
"Watchman, old man, somebody is murdered down the street."
And then there's Morris, telling people what he'd do to Jack if he ever came down his way.
Maybe he didn't like watchmen?
(Of course, the real fun would have been if he'd broken into the Eddowes mortuary and put the womb and kidney back )
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 387
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Sarah, Robert,
Sarah,
Whose morals are we talking about here ??
Yours?
Mine?....not that I have any.
This is the rub when we talk about morals. I assume we are talking about societies standards here. But are we talking about Jacks?
Robert,
I was thinking more about the Lusk letter.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 9:31 am: | |
Monty,
I'd have thought morals were morals. Personally I have very high morals, but maybe it does differ but murder has got to be one of the lowest things, if not THE lowest thing, that a person can do. For someone to commit murder they can't have very many, if not any, morals. I suppose we can call morals the standards set by society, that is why in other countries they often have different laws and different punishments. |
Jason Scott Mullins
Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
Hey there Sarah, et. al. -
Sarah, I have to disagree with you on this statement: "For someone to commit murder they can't have very many, if not any, morals".
As I'm sure you are aware, morals are not a prerequisite to living a life, just as lack of morals is not a prerequisite to committing a murder. In the JTR case, I'm not so sure morals even entered the picture. All of this is my personal opinion of course. Perhaps.... an example.
Wars are fought, lives are lost. However when it happens it's normally referred to as "the casualties of war" and not "individual murder victims". The men and women who do the killing are normally revered for defending or fighting for something, instead of put to death themselves for murder or shun'd because they lack morals.
I suppose it's all about point of view. I hate to quote books and movies, but this one might have relevance: "Evil is a point of view. God kills indiscriminately, and so shall we". To some, evil _is_ a point of view.. and just like any other point of view, it's unique to the individual. What might be a 'no no' for me most certainly will not be for another.
Which I suppose means what is morally wrong to one, isn't necessarily morally wrong to another. Though since this is all my opinion and not fact, I'll stop there.. I guess my point I was trying to make was that morals aren't required for someone to do what was done to the victims in this case
Besides, this goes much deeper into the whole "what each of us consider right and wrong and why we do so" discussion. Which, though I'd love to discuss, probably doens't belong in this thread  Perhaps I should start another one or have I rambled enough....?
crix0r |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:25 am: | |
Jason,
I agree with you when you say "what is morally wrong to one, isn't necessarily morally wrong to another.". However, I don't find your example about the war a very good comparison. Those people were fighting for their beliefs and they thought it was morally wrong NOT to fight, but to murder someone, well there is no justification.
The thing you said about God killing indiscriminately, well, who are we to play God? Personally, I'm not that religious but if there is a God and it is Him who decides when we die, then that can't be helped and we'll never know, but we, as mere mortals, have no right to decide who shall live and who shall die. I mean look at Saddam Hussein, he had many people put to death. Are you saying he had any morals?? I don't think so. He did as he pleased without any thought to other people, just as JTR did.
Sarah |
Jason Scott Mullins
Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:57 am: | |
Hey Sarah -
My comparison with war was a quickly drawn one and wasn't meant to be a end all be all comparison, just simply a quick example
I believe my point was that morals are just another form of self control and justification. Similar to that little voice in your head that say's "Hey, maybe it's not such a good idea to go skydiving with out a chutte"
Unfortunately, I am at work so I can't post a nicely formatted and well thought out reply, but I like your response and it's made me think a bit :P
crix0r |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 390
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:00 am: | |
Sarah, Jason,
Jason has hit the nail square on for me.
Its all about points of views.
I believe Hussein had his own set of morals...its just that he is judged by ours. He stood against the 'infidels'. He fought for his beliefs.
Jack certainly decided who lived and who died....not God.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
Monty,
The only beliefs Hussein had were that he should be allowed to kill anyone he wanted, which by anyone else's standard's are wrong (well except other mass murderers). There was no point in his beliefs. I know Jack decided who he killed but did that give him a moral right to do that? No. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 394
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:55 am: | |
Sarah,
There was no point in his beliefs
To you there wasnt. To me there is no point in Jacks beliefs. But Im sure he had some, and that they were mighty important to him.
Its back to the morality issue. You have yours, I mine and Jacks his.
But its not about morality. Its about law and order. The very essence of Civil society.
Maybe thats what he hated.
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
Hi Monty
Yes I think it's possible to read the Lusk letter as a jokey message.
Everyone : can anybody give me Plato's email address?
Robert |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 48
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 5:25 am: | |
Monty,
The only point I can even think of was to get his own way and have as many people killed as possible. Ok, fine, maybe it's about law and order and not morals, but didn't Saddam Hussein make up the laws in his country?
I don't think that Jack hate law and order, why kill prostitutes? He could have rebelled against it in any other number of ways.
Sarah |
Severn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
In this weeks "Time Out"there is a letter to George Bush.One of the items referred to is a new play about "Aileen:The LIfe and Death of a Serial Killer".Aileen Wournos it reminds us was despatched to the hereafter on the instruction of the preesidents brother Jeb.Jeb"s tally of executions it says has only reached double figures
while George"s reached 152 when he was governor of Texas-kind of weird way for a deeply committed Christian to behave and adds "governors obviously have accessto a special edotion of the Bible in which the Ten Commandments have footnotes.[sorry about the typing error there[edition not edotion]
But dont they all seem to adapt their religion to
sout their objectives?I tend to agree with Monty
what is normal or acceptable behaviour in one country need not be in anotherlikewise morality.
Natalie.
. |
Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:44 pm: | |
Interesting thread everyone. Normally I stay totally away from such abstract topics but...
Just free-form thinking on this over the last couple of days leads me to suspect that Jack hated himself more than anyone. Whether as a child he suffered abuse: physical, sexual, emotional, cultural or whatever; I speculate that he was trying to punish his mother (giant leap of logic there  )thus killing women, specifically those he identified as the same class as his mother.
Maybe in his own mind he was trying to protect any other child from being treated as he had been.
OK, back to the facts and nothing but the facts.
Billy |
Jason Scott Mullins
Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
Billy et. al. -
Normally I try to stick to the facts to, however in this instance, attempting to figure out whom, if anyone, he was angry with could lead us somewhere. Perhaps he did hate his mother. Perhaps he did not. As much as I'd like to think so, I have been told by more than one professional that it was more than likely that hate of the victims never came into the picture, and if hate was involved, it was himself who it was directed at.
Of course, those are just opinions, and I'm not even sure if I agree with them
crix0r |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 401
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 10:49 am: | |
Billy, Jason,
Would this self hatred manifest in self mutilation of sorts ?
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 10:59 am: | |
Monty,
There was a girl at school who seemed happy and lively, she was a friend of mine. She always used to wear long sleeves, even in summer, which we thought I bit strange but I was staying at her house once and I noticed these marks on her arms. It turned out that she had been cutting herself for ages and when I asked her why, she said because she hated herself and she had tried to stop but couldn't. We helped her to stop harming herself but I havne't seen her in ages now. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 561
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
I've got to say that I'm enjoying the development of this thread, simply because it is of vital interest, and perhaps even more simply because I do know of a chap living in Whitechapel at the times of the crimes who hated his mother so much that he attempted to slit her throat, and this same chap also enjoyed wounding himself and his uncle Charlie in such a bizarre fashion, who just happened to be a senior police investigator in control of the Ripper crimes in 1888, and this same chap was also charged with the crimes attributed to Jack, and this same chap...
where is the brandy? Logic is taking over.
Ah, sweet release.
The mirror.
People who cut themselves are obsessed by their image in the mirror.
It is reflected hurt and pain.
Sorry, I've missed my curfew again. |
Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 12:44 pm: | |
Monty, as Sarah pointed out, I would have thought self-hatred would be expressed normally in self-mutilation type actions also. But, as we are clearly dealing with a deviant personality when speaking of JtR, perhaps the norm does not hold true.
Speaking plainly, I haven't the foggiest although I feel that Google will be worn out this weekend looking for references. One interesting thing I found out earlier this week while doing a search, was the case of a Polish Jew, who in order to ingratiate himself with the "Christian" predominate populace, began informing on fellow Jews and fabricating charges playing to the predjudice they held against the Jews. Maybe it is relevent, maybe it is only interesting.
In a muddle as always  ,
Billy |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page