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Frank van Oploo
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 3:26 pm: |       |
Hi Andy, David,
Maybe someone 'beats' me in posting a similar message to this one earlier than me, but I post it anyway. It doesn't have any real bearing on the case, but anyway, I don't know any 1887 murder figures, however I do know that on June 28, 1887 Israel Lipski poisoned Miriam Angel at 16 Batty Street, which by the way was but one street to the east and running parallel to Berner Street. So, Andy, I don't know the source that provided you with the information that there were no murders in 1887, but the Lipski murder casts at least some doubt on the reliability of your source...
All the best,
Frank 
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R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 10:48 pm: | |
David (F.), Frank--You're thinking of Joseph Loane's "Report for 1887" made well-known by Bruce Paley, who used it to claim that no homicides took-place in Whitechapel the year previous to the Ripper murders.
As Alex Chisholm explained to me sometime ago, (he wrote an article on the subject for Ripperologist), Loane's report didn't record some 700+ deaths of non-residents who died in Whitechapel in 1887 (mainly in London Hospital), because the purpose of the report really had to do with district mortality rates (ie., residents).
As Alex put it,
"Even if every one [of the non-residents] had been foully done to death their demise would not have altered Loane’s findings in the slightest. He would still have recorded 0 Homicides. This would not have resulted from any determined under-reporting of murder, but simply because the deaths of non-residents could have no bearing on District mortality statistics.
Miriam Angel was murdered in St.George's-in-the-East, not Whitechapel proper, which explains it not being recorded in Loane's report.
By the way, there were also other murders in the immediate area prior to the Ripper murders. The Times (Feb 2, 1888) records the murder & suicide of a couple named Potstami (evidently referred to as "Potzdamer" in Lloyd's Weekly) and Fishman mentions a Jewish woman who was found murdered and mangled in a tunnel by Aldgate--although personally I've never been able to track this one down. Cheers, RP |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 11:31 pm: | |
Glenn--You're an inclusionist! A dying breed in these days of dwindling returns. Along with the white flag, I send my regards. Cheers, RP
P.S. My own short-list is Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes, plus the woman that was poked with a stick in Piccadilly. Yes, leaving out Mary Kelly borders on being churlish, but then, I'm churlish. |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 127
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 1:40 am: | |
Thanks R.J. for the citation and explanation. My point holds whether the stats are for Whitechapel proper or only for residents of Whitechapel, unless people from all about London were clamoring to come to die in Whitechapel. Murder was not common in and about Whitechapel. Also, beware trusting newspaper accounts. Reporters have been known to make up stories. (I really didn't think that there were literally no murders there in 1887).
Frank, I hate to disappoint you but there are far too many variables in the flow and clotting of blood from a wound to determine a time frame. One's platelett level is surely affected by individual chemistry, disease, overall health, and environmental factors such as ambient temperature -- and in the case of arteriole bloodflow, whether or not the heart is still beating.
Andy
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 302
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 5:17 am: | |
Hi RJ,
Leaving out Mary Kelly only borders on being churlish?
Am I being churlish to imagine you may be nursing a ripper theory that depends on Kelly's murder being a copy-cat affair committed by someone (who, pray?) who was not into serial killing?
I couldn't really agree that such dependency would represent logic, commonsense, or even 'sanity.'  So I hope I'm guilty of churlishness and an overactive imagination.
Love,
Caz
PS Andy, I'll show you my incision if you show me yours. On second thoughts, I doubt that would be therapeutic for either of us. 
|
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 152
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 8:00 am: | |
Hi Palmer,
So ... you're an exclusionist!!!!!!!!!!
"A dying breed in these days of dwindling returns." [inclusionists]
Yes, we're not extinct yet. 
I'm not sure what you mean with "the woman that was poked with a stick in Piccadilly", though. The only one I can think of that as being "poked" is Emma Smith but she was most certainly a victim of a gang of young ruffians.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 153
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 8:31 am: | |
Hi Frank,
I thought you didn't bother to write me long messages anymore? 
I think you're missing the point with the "warm" or freshly killed bodies, Frank. I pointed out this circumstance to be seen in connection with two bodies in such a state -- and both troat-cutted -- within less than an hours time and a few minutes away from one another in distance. That's the link. Of course, "warm bodies" in itself doesent prove anything -- it is quite fair to assume that a dead body, left displayed in the open in connection with relatively trafficated places (at least regarding some of the murders) should be discovered quite quickly.
As far as the direction pattern is concerned, you do the same mistake, I'm afraid, as everyone else trying to disregard it; the clear pattern is east-west-and back east again, whether it's south-east or Whitechapel. I think that pattern is strong enough; you can't look at these factors as isolated circumstances, Frank. You must add them all together, and then come to the conclusion if it's coincidences or not. I believe the chance for that is microscopical.
I do think your scenario involving Kidney -- even if it's, as you say, speculation -- is quite interesting. I don't know that much about his description or whereabouts during the murder, I have to consult the material more thoroughly, but it could indeed be a good explanation to Elisabeth Stride's behaviour during the "assaulting man-incident". But that still doesen't mean that this man killed her, it just gives us an interesting theory on who the "Schwartz man" could have been.
Then I have to agree with Andy on the unsure factors regarding the stream of bood, and I myself am most certainly not medical man enough to sort that out. All I know is that a good deal of the blood was of "liquid state" and that it was still running from her throat when she was found (I think).
I do believe, however, that (if we disregard the problem with the flow of blood) the most probable time of Stride's murder was just seconds before Diemscutz arrival, taken the time scedules and the witness statements in consideration.
All the best
And... WHAT!!!.. I'm an "Inspector" now!!!!! When can I expect my raise? 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
David O'Flaherty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
Thanks, RJ
In his Ripperologist article, Alex also talks about how the inquests often produced indefinite results, like "found dead." He also quotes Chief Constable Frederick Porter's Forty Years of Scotland Yard:
Murder was probably more common than the official statistics showed; for bodies of people, who it is likely had been knocked on the head, were frequently found in the streets, often near disreputable houses. Unless there was obvious evidence of foul play, the inquest verdicts were usually indefinite.
Although it seems to me getting "knocked on the head" is not such a subtle thing 
Frank, I thought of Lipski too, after I'd posted. Alex Chisholm also points out in his article that if something like a torso murder had happened in 1887 Whitechapel, it would not have been included in the report because it couldn't have been known if the victim was a resident or not. As RJ said, the report was only meant to deal with district mortality rates.
Good article, Alex
Cheers,
Dave |
Frank van Oploo
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 4:52 am: | |
Hi Andy,
You're not disappointing me, it was just the thought of a layman and as I hadn't read anything anywhere about it I didn't really expect something to come of it, it was rather wishful thinking, I guess. Thanks for your answer.
Take care,
Frank |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 682
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
Hi all
I should think the streets would have been pretty awful. But then there's also the Mahoney story. According to Sugden, on the night of the Tabram murder Joseph Mahoney let his wife Elizabeth go out at 1.45 AM to get their dinner!
Glenn, congratulations on your promotion. No pay rise, I'm afraid. In fact, it's compulsory for you to be like Abberline - wandering the streets of east London till 4 or 5 in the morning, in search of the Ripper...giving unfortunates the money for their doss, to get them out of harm's way....
But you do get a slap up feed at an Aldgate tavern when you retire!
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 158
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
"No pay rise, I'm afraid."
Just like Sweden, then... 
"In fact, it's compulsory for you to be like Abberline - wandering the streets of east London till 4 or 5 in the morning, in search of the Ripper..."
Well, you see, that sounds just like me -- I'm a night owl anyway, and seldom go to sleep before 5:30 in the morning. Watch out, Jacky... here I come!
(Maybe I'll even pull Abberline in the side-burns when he's dozing off at the station...)
"But you do get a slap up feed at an Aldgate tavern when you retire!"
Ah, now you're talking, Gov! Well, we wouldn't miss out on that, would we? Much better than the usual gold watch...  
All the best 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 11:56 pm: | |
"Am I being churlish to imagine you may be nursing a ripper theory that depends on Kelly's murder being a copy-cat affair...?"
I wouldn't call it churlish, but no, sorry Caz, my offering will 'depend' on no such thing. No manufacturing or hiding evidence. Heck, I'm not even interested in anything as flimsy as probability or logic Only revelation.
Kelly: Ripper victim or not I've never been satisfied with the "Jack hit the jack-pot and found an indoor victim" explanation offered by Mr. Hazelwood and so many others. It seems far too easy to me.
RP. |
Michael Raney
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 4:34 pm: | |
For what it's worth, my list includes Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. My only question about Kelly is; Why a victim that was so much younger than the rest?
Mikey (back on the prowl) |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 10:32 pm: | |
According to pertinent analyses of time zones, when Mr. Ryder usually visits this queue, and typical Croydon Hospital practice, Caz is likely at about the moment this post hits the boards to be proceding into the O.R. Let us all pause and feel a warm snuggly for our friend of many years. Ah...right and nice!
David
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 307
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 7:58 am: | |
Hi All,
Thanks Saddam - I'm back, all warm and snuggly, bandaged from and to places you don't want to know about, following the rule of 'toes above nose', which I hope will give readers an interesting image to ponder.
Another interesting thing to ponder is the revelation from RJ's own typing digit that he is not interested in logic.
RJ, you may never have been satisfied with the "Jack hit the jack-pot and found an indoor victim" explanation, seeing it as 'far too easy'.
Well, someone hit the jack-pot and found it far too easy to get away with murdering this indoor victim. If you can be satisfied that it wasn't Jack, you are more easily satisfied than me.
Love,
Caz
PS I need a little nap now! See y'all soon.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 175
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 10:34 am: | |
Caz,
When you come back, you sure do it in style!
"Another interesting thing to ponder is the revelation from RJ's own typing digit that he is not interested in logic.
RJ, you may never have been satisfied with the "Jack hit the jack-pot and found an indoor victim" explanation, seeing it as 'far too easy'.
Well, someone hit the jack-pot and found it far too easy to get away with murdering this indoor victim. If you can be satisfied that it wasn't Jack, you are more easily satisfied than me."
I couldn't have said it better myself.
It's indeed interesting to discover, that by dismissing logic, probablities and common sense as vital factors or working tools (and calling them flimsy), Mr. Palmer therefore also kicks some of the most important essenses of ordinary police and detection work out the window.
I wish you a fast recovery, Caz. Sweet dreams.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 136
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
Logic has never convinced anyone of anything important.
--Martin Gardner, ''The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener"
|
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 10:46 am: | |
You misunderstand me, Glenn. I plan on placing the Ripper, bloody knife in hand, standing over the dead body. In comparison, the wiliest logic will indeed be flimsy.
On another matter.In reviewing this thread I have to challenge the notion that the drunken street attack witnessed by Schwartz would have been a common occurence in a place like Berner Street. Only Wolf seems to appreciate the fact that the street brawling was pretty much contained within Sam Barnett's 'evil acres' around Flower & Dean, not in this respectable street to the south. My main complaint in regards to the "Good Samaritan" theory is that it is far too cavalier and convenient: the drunk witnessed by Schwartz magically disappears, and just as magically he is replaced with a Good Samaritan. And where does this Samaritan come from? Is it the pipe-smoker? But as Scwartz flees south, he passes up the opportunity of ducking-down his own street, going nearly to the railway arch. Might one conclude, then, that Schwartz was followed for a considerable distance?
You may not care for my suggestion that the drunk was Kidney-pie, but, afterall it was Saturday night, his girl had escaped his lock-in and his abuse, leaving him (as the record shows) downwardly mobile. RP |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 177
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Hi Palmer,
Well I actually do see the logic in your reasoning here -- I can very well understand why you raise question marks regarding a second attacker (who I think was Jack) appearing just minutes after the drunk (?) assaulting man -- that is indeed a coincident, I can buy that and that is a reasoning based on logic indeed. But it isn't as strange or big a coincident as the connection between Stride's death and Ripper murder concieved just twenty minutes away, and done about twenty to thirty minutes after Stride's murder. If I compare these two "coincidences" with one another, I am pretty sure where I feel the tip of the scale is pointing -- logically.
I do believe it's a shame that Schwartz took off from the scene in question, because as a result of this, we will never know when or if the assaulting man left the scene and another man, or murderer, entered. It is indeed frustrating. According to Schwartz, though, he apperantly was followed quite a distance, but on the other hand we can't even be sure if he really was followed -- the pipe-smoking man could very well have been someone who fled the scene himself for the same reasons as Schwartz. And as Sugden say: A scared witness is not a very good witness.
If you suggest that the drunk, assaulting man was Kidney, I have never disregarded this option, in fact Stride's behaviour could very well point at that possibility. But that doesn't automatically mean that Kidney killed her (or explain why or how), and try to find reasons for this olny leads into far-off speculations. He may have been a wife- or woman abuser, but why should Kidney go as far as slicing her throat? Yes, the assaulting man could indeed have been Kidney, but I don't think he was the one that killed her.
My comment about your views on methods are based on several statements on your own part, where you repeatedly have dismissed anything that can't be clearly read from actual facts (the quote you inserted in your last post I think says it all). As I've said before, this is totally impossible, considering the old nature of the case and the absence or inconclusive nature of important sources and material. The common sense-approach and use of intuition is just as valid and important features of police work and police training as studying facts. Without the ability to use that we are totally lost, I'm afraid.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 310
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
...his girl had escaped his lock-in and his abuse, leaving him (as the record shows) downwardly mobile.
So Kidney slit his girl's throat and risked being left even more downwardly mobile - at the end of the hangman's rope. And in this position, he wouldn't ever need Stride again to earn the pennies to return him to upward mobility.
Yes, I think I see the logic here. 
Love,
Caz |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 12:57 pm: | |
something tells me "the green-eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on' ... does not reason thus.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 695
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 1:20 pm: | |
Hi RJ
Re the area, yes it wasn't as bad as Dorset Street, but it still doesn't sound very salubrious to me. We have violent rows between socialist and orthodox Jews ; a drunken anti-semite attacking a known prostitute ; a long coated man apparently propositioning a woman (be it Stride or someone else) ; a woman had recently been murdered in a street nearby ; and the Pinchin Street torso was still to come.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 139
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 1:28 pm: | |
I think it's hazardous to assume that the tussle witnessed by Schwartz between Stride and an attacker was as serious as a brawl. It may have been. But it also may have been just a minor tussle or even a demonstrative argument -- possibly even playful pushing and shoving (though this is certainly not as likely).
Andy
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 696
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 1:51 pm: | |
Hi Andy
Yes, well from the medical evidence that survives, there doesn't seem to be any indication of damage to Stride which might have arisen from this attack, except the bruising round the shoulders - no other (recent) bruising anywhere, no grazed hands from where she hit the pavement.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 178
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
Hi Andy, Robert,
Exactly. That has been my point with the "Schwartz man" all along. We have no real indications on how "violent" this assault was, and we definitely have no evidence showing that it developed into a murder -- only circumstancual factors that in my view are quite lame.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
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