| Author |
Message |
    
Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 8:06 am: |       |
I believe one of the posters on these boards used to have an interest in Gilbert & Sullivan. Would he/she like to email me?
Many thanks
Bob |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 302
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 1:26 pm: | |
Hi, Bob:
The poster with the interest in Gilbert and Sullivan that you are thinking of is Caroline Morris. Meanwhile, I would like to talk to you about the Thomas Hardy poem about the Ripper that you mentioned some time back if you could contact me.
All the best
Chris |
Suzi Hanney
Police Constable
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 10:15 am: | |
Bob,
It,s ME you fool!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love
Sue
|
Thomas C. Wescott
Police Constable
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
The Zodiac killer would often paraphrase Gilbert & Sullivan in his letters. Just a note.
Tom Wescott |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 361
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 4:45 am: | |
Any more info, Tom? Any actual quotes you could post here?
Thanks.
Love,
Caz
PS Hi Sue, Bob's no fool - it's me too!  |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 263
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:29 am: | |
Caz,
Im sorry to Tom if Im stepping on toes.
In a Zodiac letter to the San Francisco Chronicle the Zodiac wrote a parody on the Mikado.
He explained what he would like to do to his 'slaves'. Im not sure the quotes would be appropriate on this thread.
Monty
PS Sorry again Tom.
|
Alan Sharp
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 7:10 am: | |
Caz,
I believe I am right in saying that the cab driver killed by the Zodiac in San Francisco, Paul Lee Stine, according to his trip log picked him up outside a theatre where Pirates of Penzance was playing. This is just from memory so I may be wrong. |
Alan Sharp
Police Constable
Username: Ash
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 5:24 am: | |
My apologies, I was indeed wrong. I looked it up last night and it turns out that it was The Mikado and it wasn't a production it was a rehearsal by the local G&S society, the show was opening the following week.
However the reason I remembered it was sound. Basically Robert Greysmith's reason for mentioning this was that with the various oblique G&S references in the Zodiac letters, he theorised that this may have been where the Zodiac was coming from when he hailed Stine's cab. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 364
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 7:18 am: | |
Hi Monty and Alan,
Thanks very much.
The coincidence is that I have long wondered whether the G&S performances going on in London at the time of our Jack the Lad's crimes would have entered into his consciousness.
Although, if Jack fancied taking on the role of Lord High Executioner, for example, making a little mental list of all those who wouldn't be missed if they lost their heads, perhaps he wasn't quite as cut out for the job as the torso killer.
Love,
Caz |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 365
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 7:25 am: | |
PS I think I can see another diary in the making, to get a higher profile for that other unknown killer whose piece-work failed to get him such a large slice of the action.
|
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 267
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
Caz,
See how the fates their gifts alott,
For A is happy-B is not.
Yet B is worthy dare I say,
Of more prosperity than A !
.....then again !
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 802
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 1:10 pm: | |
I like Gilbert and Sullivan. "Alone Again, Naturally" was superb.
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 3:37 pm: | |
Take that man out and shoot him. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 804
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 4:19 pm: | |
 |
Suzi Hanney
Police Constable
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
Hi Caz,
Sorry about the delay.. have FINALLY got a p.c. so can play now!! Right..re G&S what about Captain Shaw in Iolanthe..definately a player in 1888! Hope you're good..do keep in touch
Love Suzi x |
Suzi Hanney
Police Constable
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi Caz et.al............
Sorry if I did that twice! just practising! |
Suzi Hanney
Police Constable
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi Caz et.al............
Sorry if I did that twice! just practising! |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 9:33 pm: | |
Excuse me, but what has Captain Eyre Shaw of the London Fire Brigade (mentioned in the Fairy Queen's song in IOLANTHE) got to do with 1888. IOLANTHE came out in 1882. Shaw was one of the
modernizers of London's Fire Department, but was also a known womanizer (which helps one appreciate the reference to him in in the Fairy Queen's song:
"On fire that glows
With heat intense
I turn the hose
Of common sense,
And out it goes
At small expense!
We must maintain
Our fairy law;
That is the main
On which to draw--
In that we gain
A Captain Shaw!
Oh, Captain Shaw!
Type of true love kept under!
Could thy Brigade
With Cold Cascade
Quench my great love, I wonder!"
On the night that IOLANTHE opened (November 25, 1882), Shaw had a seat in the audience (he attended all the first nights). Gilbert was aware of it, and had a spotlight fall on Shaw, while the actress playing the Fairy Queen address the Captain while she sang that passage.
Still, aside from his reputation as a lover, why would he be connected to Whitechapel? Can someone please explain this?
Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 561
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 4:23 am: | |
Hi Jeff,
And poor Captain Shaw had to swallow any indignity or embarrassment he may have felt, assuming he realised he was being mocked. He apparently turned to smile and wave to the audience, so it’s possible the joke went a wee bit over his head, although G&S were not always very subtle with their topical ironies.
You’d have to ask Suzi what she meant about a connection between Shaw and 1888 Whitechapel. I can’t imagine he would have been interested in teaching a woman like Eddowes how to impersonate a fire engine, however much he liked playing around with his hose.
Love,
Caz
PS Hi Suzi – nice to see you back on the boards. |
Suzi Hanney
Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 5:49 am: | |
Hi all,
Whoops!!!!!!!!!!!.well one Capt Shaw looks so like another these days ah well..
Love,
Suzi |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 499
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:23 am: | |
Hi, Caz et al.:
I think the "off with their heads" idea, that the Ripper really wanted to decapitate his victims, is a nonstarter, for certainly he could have done so if he wanted to, instead of, or as well as groping around in and removing innards. So I don't really see any tangible link between the case and the Lord High Executioner in The Mikado in terms of decapitation.
I will grant that doggerel along the lines of Gilbert and Sullivan songs might figure in the case if we want to credit the Heneage Court rhyme as being an actual period rhyme and not something made up by Donald McCormick. On the other hand, such rhyming songs were popular in the music hall and in the culture of the day, not just in Gilbert and Sullivan.
Whether the Ripper saw himself as an "Executioner" is another question entirely, and could be so if we grant that he might have thought he was ridding the world of prostitutes, as confessed Green River Killer Gary Ridgway apparently also wanted to do.
All the best
Chris |
Suzi Hanney
Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
Chris
I think we're getting into a 'Never mind the why and wherefore' situation here! 'Love can level ranks and therefore...I'm sure Stephen Knight could have made something out of that!!!
cheers
Suzi |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 200
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:33 pm: | |
Some things to consider regarding G & S, which don't amount to any silly theory, but which are
of interest.
In 1888, William Gilbert created the only serious
Gilbert and Sullivan libretto - THE YEOMAN OF THE GUARD. Set in the Elizabethan period, it is set in the Tower of London, and deals with the impending execution of Colonel Fairfax for a trumped up charge (his cousin - an unseen villain named Poltwhistle - has framed Fairfax for treason, in order to get him executed for inheritance purposes). Fairfax to thwart his cousin marries Elsie Maynard, the travelling companion of the jester Jack Point. Then Fairfax escapes, and (while in disguise) woos Elsie. In the end she and Fairfax go off together, and Point dies of a broken heart. YEOMAN opened on October 3, 1888, in the middle of the Ripper's activities.
Gilbert was a barrister, who was fascinated by crime. He had a large library of true crime books, that (upon his death) was auctioned off. It ended up being purchased by Sir Arthur Conan
Doyle.
There are references (occasionally) in Gilbert's works to crime. In one of his Bab Ballads, "Annie
Protheroe" the heroine is wooed by two rivals, one of whom is a hangman. Gilbert writes, "In busy times he laboured at his gentle craft all day--"No doubt you mean his Cal-craft"you amusingly will say--But no--he didn't operate with common bits of string. He was a Public Headsman, which is quite another thing."
"Cal-craft" is referring to the then public executioner, William Calcraft (d. 1879).
He kept abreast of criminal events in his works.
In his last good libretto for Sullivan (UTOPIA LTD.) Gilbert created a character called "the
public exploder", who is meant to blow up the King of Utopia if the King is judged a tyrant. The operetta appeared in 1893, just as the Anarchist series of assassinations and bombings was occuring throughout Europe and the Americas.
In his last play, THE HOOLIGAN, he dealt with a wife murderer in a death cell. This play, written in 1911, was influenced by the Crippen murder case of the previous year (Gilbert attended the trial of Dr. Hawley Crippen).
Again, nothing to really build into information about the Ripper and his killings, except for the the premiere of Yeoman. But it is all interesting.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 569
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 7:22 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Well, that was exactly the point I made myself, suggesting the torso killer would have been a better candidate than Jack if anyone had been influenced by Ko-Ko.
Hi Jeff,
Yes, it hadn’t escaped me that the opening night of Yeoman was October 3, with jester Jack Point dying of a broken heart within days of that other jester, ‘Jack the Ripper’, making his own literary entrance. At one time that would have struck me as a remarkable coincidence. These days I am more used to accepting such coincidences with a wry smile.
My grandfather, aged 10 at the time, might have been in the audience. His father used to take him to the Savoy by train from their home in Wandsworth to see all the operettas.
Love,
Caz
|
Suzi Hanney
Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
Caz
Broken heart 'eh?? I actually had an audition for the D'Oyly Carte and lost my voice pre audition!! many people would say...shame it came back!!!!!!!!!!!!!Have a great Christmas!!!!!!!
See you soon
Love
Suzi |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 205
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 8:14 pm: | |
Hi Caz (and Merry Christmas),
Interesting point about your grandfather's memories of seeing the productions at the Savoy when he was a boy. It reminds us of how close we really are (by people we knew) to what we just consider ancient history. My own grandfather was born in January 1891, and whenever I think of that I realize that briefly he was contemporary to the Civil War Union General, William Sherman, and Sherman's Civil War opponent (and post war
friend) Confederate General Joseph Johnston, and
Frances Cole (who was murdered about one month afterwards).
Back in the late 1970s I was taking a bar examination with several hundred other law school graduates. One was an English lady. She told me
(when we were discussing old British murder cases) that her grandmother had lived as a girl in the East End, and once believed she was possibly eyed by a man who could have been the Ripper. She said that her grandmother was heading home, when she noticed this man eying her peculiarly - and then she heard a police whistle, announcing the discovery of a victim's body. The
story might have been true, but it was too vague for anything to be made of it...unfortunately.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 51
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 11:58 am: | |
Jeff,
Great story..!what a shame...!
Cheers
Suzi |
John P. Shimkonis
Police Constable
Username: Aquavalour
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 2:11 am: | |
I'm somewhere between understanding slaves, souvenirs, and trophies. I think the zodiac killer is the manifestation of a giant psittacine dinosaur. You know, the Charles Darwin theory. Richard Eberling should dovetail exactly with Arthur Leigh Allen. Who is Djwhal Khul? A Ripper suspect. I probably should throw in King Arthur and the Round Table here. |
John P. Shimkonis
Sergeant
Username: Aquavalour
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 2:26 am: | |
I believe there is a link between the Boxer Rebellion and one of the Ripper suspects and that Doctor Mudgett had something to do with the Boxer Rebellion as written about by JAG Roberts. |
