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Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 2:39 pm: |       |
Hi everyone.
For those of you that have not read my posts on the old boards regarding this subject, I will give you a preview, for the people that have , I apologize.
The number 39 appears a significant amount of times in this case , coincedence mayby , but I for one like the odds.
I will list the main contenders.
1] Martha tabram aged 39 years , stabbed 39 times.
2]Polly Nichols killed 31 of the 8th month.
3] Annie chapman killed 8th sept 31+8= 39
4] Stride + Eddowes killed 30th of the 9th month
5]Stride + Eddowes date + kellys =39
6] Kelly lived at 26 Dorset Street Room 13.
7] Barnet agreed to live with Kelly 9th april 87 , left her 30th oct 88.
8]the names of the victims ie; Tabram , Nichols, chapman , long LIz, eddowes, kelly add up to 39.
[ I am not cheating using Long Liz this is the name she was known as in the neighbourhood]
9]The 39TH psalm if translated in to more modern wording could be significant in this case
10] a telegram was sent mentioning the murderer lived at 39 cutler street , with the number 39 strangely written.
There are more , but I will limit myself to ten of the best , at least it will give members a idea of my reasoning.
I believe the reason for these murders was religious mania, and committed by someone who had contempt for prostitutes, who at first tried to control his obsession, and found his beliefs to strong to contain.
There will be many of you that will say coincedence, but I have stated the facts you must decide..
Regards Richard. |
Rebecca Walker
Police Constable
Username: Beccainsc
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 7:28 pm: | |
Richard,
I'm not too sure I see where you get your 39 in this one:
"3] Annie chapman killed 8th sept 31+8= 39 "
September only has 30 days 
Would you please elaborate a bit more on why you feel 39 signifies some sort of religious mania? I came in late on the old boards as a lurker and missed that discussion.
Thanks!
Rebecca |
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 8:20 am: | |
Richard, if Jack were an organized killer I might be more willing to look at your theory. He has been variously described as completely disorganized or halfway between organized and disorganized. I don't think he was capable of the fine and meticulous planning and execution necessary to carry out such an obsession. That would mean that instead of having victims of opportunity, he carefully researched each one well in advance, doing mathematical calculations with their names and choosing the dates of their death according to a formula. How could he be sure that he would get a victim on August 31? Would he have to wait until he could create another combination totalling 39? How long would that take?
If you are using a simple substitution where A=1, B=2 . . . Z=26, I get the following numbers for Tabram: T=20, A=1, B=2, R=18, A=1, M=13. That adds up to 55. What system of calculation are you using? |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 9:30 am: | |
Hi Rebecca,
Polly Nichols killed 31st Aug.. Annie Chapman Killed 8th sept = 39 .
If the killer had not thought about sept having 30 days ie..31 then kelly would have been killed on the 8th nov, but since it did she was killed on the 9th.
Regarding religious mania, I was refering to the 39th psalm.I will do my best to translate.
I said I would keep my mouth shut, even tho wickedmess is before me, I held my peace.
Then my sorrow was stirred, My heart was hot within me, all the time the fire burned, then i spoke with my tonque.forgive me for I am frail.
I could interpet the above to somebody who resented prostitutes , but in the beginning held his tonque, but found it extremely hard to control his obsession.
Barnets relationship with Kelly, would be the perfect scenerio, he met her at first hated her ex profession , but began to accept that mayby she should be forgiven for she had had bad times, for a time this worked but not long after moving in to Millers Court she resumed her way of living .
Barnet admitted he tried to get her to attend mass but to no avail, and it could well be that when he saw the woman he cared for fall back into her old ways surrounded by the whitechapel prostitutes , all the feelings he had tried to keep hidden emerged into a bloody frenzy.
Diana.
I believe the killer did plan the murders meticulously, and arranged to meet the victims at pre arranged spots on the days of the murders.
As for my system of calculation i am not using a=1 b=2 etc . It is very simple.
Take the surnames Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, long Liz, Eddowes, Kelly then simply add up all the letters you see they total 39.
That is why I believe the killer may have been Barnet for he would have known these women, if he did not Kelly would have, that plus the episode of spitting on her grave when he was the only candidate apart from the priest at the graveside service also enhances this point.
Regards Richard.
|
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 12:55 pm: | |
Hi Richard.
No, actually I must have been one who missed your previous suggestions on the old list.
Above, I wondered if you were joking, sort of 'tongue-in-cheek', you might say.
Your poste reminded me of an old book I had when a teenager, can't recall the author but the title was "The Black Arts", a book of something like 500+ pages and it covered everything imaginable to do with the subject, incantations, spells, recipes, ritual rules, etc....quite the book for an enthusiast of that gendre.
However, one subject was numerology and it explained two basic rules of thought on the study.
One was the Jewish method that was most common, or accepted. The difference between the two methods was the arrangement of the letters, but I can't recall exactly in what way. I think the Jewish method identified a=1, b=2, c=3, etc up to i=9 then j=1, k=2, and repeated that thereafter as before, never using any more numbers than 1-9.
You can arrange the letters of the alphabet & numbers 1-9 on a grid.
The idea is to turn any word into a numerical value, then reduce that value to one single number, ie; JON = 1+6+5 = 12, 1+2 = 3.
Therefore the name JON has a value of 3.
I wondered if this is what you were getting at but you seem to have stopped at 39 rather than finishing the process by 39 = 3+9 = 12, 1+2 = 3.
The number you should be concerned with in numerology is not 39 but 3.
Now, I am not trying to vindicate or vilify anything you have posted, either way, but have wondered why you stopped in mid procedure for some reason.
I think numerology is an amusing pastime, nothing more, however your poste brought back some memories.
Have you tried selecting any other number and using various names, places, dates, etc, concerning this case, to see what you can come up with regarding any other number?, sort of a litmus test to see if your 39 (or 3?) has any unique value.
But then if Tabram & Stride were not Ripper victims, what does that do to your study, or are you convinced, by the results of your hypothesis that they indeed must have been Ripper victims.
You might end up in a circular argument if you are not carefull  .
Is anyone intrigued why Eddowes was also known as Kelly, and Kelly was also known as Davies, why Davies was also known as Mylett....etc....etc.
Coincidences, nothing more.
Regards, Jon
(which only goes to show, it depends which names/data we choose to work with) |
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 4:55 pm: | |
The reason all those people kept changing their names is that they were down and outers who had a very unstable lifestyle and frequently had to escape accountability for things they had done. |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 5:09 pm: | |
Geez Diana, silly me thought it was mostly due to the fact they married/cohabitated with various men and took on the mans surname. Mebee thats an odd thing to do.......just my wild imagination.
All the best, Jon |
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 6:26 pm: | |
Means the same thing. Didn't want to be accountable in Victorian society for cohabitation. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 3:42 am: | |
Hi Jon,
No it certainly was not intended to be tonque in cheek, I just happen to believe that there comes a time when coincedence should not be just accepted.
Intrestingly the number 3+13 has a significance in black magic circles, so 13 times 3 =39
It may seem like a numbers game , but I just thought it was intresting to bring up this subject on the new boards , because the old posts have been lost to many .
Another 39 Barnet left Kelly on the 30th oct , killed 9th nov.
I am afraid the list is endless..
Regards Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 7:37 am: | |
G'day,
If the number 39 pops up alot in this case, I don't think that Jack the Ripper necessarily planned it that way!
Numerology is the ancient study of numbers and many people still follow numerology today. It is believed that numbers and letters that relate to a number, can help to determine a persons characteristics, talents, motivations, destinations etc.
Some people may have noticed that certain numbers 'follow' them throughout their life. eg, house numbers, car number plates etc.
Richard, if you have found that the number 39 pops-up alot in this case:
39 can be reduced to 3 plus 9 which equals 12,
12 can be reduced to 1 plus 2, which equals 3,
JtRs number could have been 3!
LEANNE
|
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
Leanne,
You are right numerology , is an ancient study, I was not trying to find out Jacks number, but merely making a point that the number 39, does crop up rather a lot in this case.
Mayby it is a coincedence or mayby it has a connection with black magic , or mayby religious motives,
Members have said in the past that you can play the numbers game with any series of numbers, and make out there is something sinister about it, mayby so but I throw out a challenge to readers of this thread, try and find numbers that have connections to this case ,on multiple occasions.
It would be intresting to see if that is possible..
Regards Richard. |
Monty
Police Constable
Username: Monty
Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:01 pm: | |
Blimey, Jack knew a lot of ways to sum up 39 !!
A hell of a researcher too !!!
Monty
 |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 6:07 am: | |
Hi Monty,
I dont think it would have been that hard to conjure up a sequence like the one I have discussed.
Regarding the research if you are refering to the names of the victims, someone like Barnet for instance would have known Tabram as a prostitute,
Nichols was a regular street walker, likewise Chapman, Long Liz was well known in the area, Eddowes it is claimed to have been a friend of Mary Jane, and was reported to have stayed in the shed in millers court, and of course he was aware of Kelly.
Infact Barnet would have known all of Kellys streetwalker friends and could have easily targeted appropiate candidates.
It may look like I am suggesting Barnet as the killer, and I most certainly am..
Regards Richard. |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Detective Sergeant
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 9:53 am: | |
Richard,
We've been over this before, but I just don't think there's any evidence - solid, good evidence - to support any theories that the killer was a numerologist, or even could add, for that matter.
Granted, while my theory of a medical student would indicate someone able to read/write and cipher, I don't think there would be any way for him to ensure that all of the variables he needed to be in place for the "39" theory to work out were actually in place.
I'm a firm believer that the simplest answer is more likely than not true, and the "39" theory is probably one of the most complex out there. I just don't think it could work.
B |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
HI Brian,
Yes you are correct ,this is old ground.
However I do not see how the killer would have to be a numerologist to calculate 39, nor do I Believe the 39 theory to be complex.
For exsample:
He has religious obsession, he sees himself the person in the 39 psalm. I am going to come out and say the suspect is Barnett.
He is convinced that he has a destiny when he notices he lives at 26, Dorset St, room 13=39
and decides to form the murders around this pattern.
He attacks Tabram with prior knowledge of this woman kills her with a knife thrust in the chest and proceds to stab her all over her body with a penknife a further 38 times.
He then kills Nichols on the 31st of the 8th month, and then Chapman on the 8th sept planning the next victim for the 31st sept, after chapman he notices that there is only 30 days in sept[ a mistake many people make during the course of a year] so not to worry the 30th of the 9th month will suffice.
During Oct he contemplates the final event , the murder of Kelly he remembers that he moved in with her on the 9th april the previous year, so fitting he would leave her on the 30th oct.
This fits in nicely the last murder was the 30th sept nowthe final act 9th nov, also it was the 9th he and kelly started living together, so the 9th she would die.
So there you go Brian, nothing to complex, if you was in that frame of mind, anybody could if they desired to go out and kill on specific dates , if they felt strongly that the dates were significant in their mind.
Regards Richard.
|
Scott Medine
Police Constable
Username: Sem
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
“Many a slip twixt a cup and the lip.”
Many serial killers work in patterns. The pattern may be complex or relatively simple. It depends on the killer. What one has to realize is that it is their world and we merely serve as stage props. What the killer fails to realize is that fantasies are always perfect, but reality can be deceptive. These slip ups, in trying to force life to imitate fantasy, are usually what leads to the killer’s downfall.
Peace,
Scott |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 5:30 pm: | |
G'day all,
In bringing up 'Numerology', I didn't mean to suggest that the Ripper planned it that way!
I don't believe in it, but if 'Numerology' is correct, the number 39, which breaks down to the number 3, just followed him! Like a 'horoscope', he couldn't get away from it!
It would be interesting to know the exact birth dates of the suspects, to see whether anyone's date breaks down to the number 3!
LEANNE
|
danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
In reading over this theory the only thing that comes to mind is another man that once came up with a "Code for the Bible" in which he claimed the bible had 'predicted' the death and killing of many leaders of the world. While yes, on the surface it seemed correct, he 'threw out' a challenge in which he said that if someone could find the prediction of the Chris being born in the book "Moby Dick" that he would give up his theory. Ironically enough, someone did find a pattern in Moby Dick that predicted the birth of Chris and even many more things.
My point in all of this being, I think if you look at something hard enough you'll find whatever it is you want to see. I agree that the number shows up an amazing amount of time, but to base JtR's killings on them? I find that a little harder to believe. I think one of the most important questions to ask is, 'When did he start to believe he was the person in the 39th psalms?' And think to see if some of the events happen before or after he started believing that.
Personally I don't think I could have remembered when I moved in with someone or then to do the correct math to see when I should move out (if I were planning a murder) and then to kill her.
Not to say that you could very well be right. If we are to believe that Jack the ripper had a connection to the number 39 or 3, let's take my name for example (using the formula A-I = 1-9 which was jewish and seems to be something the ripper was facinated with):
Dane = 15/5 = 3 (Interesting I think so)
Firmin = 42. 42/14 = 3. Oh my.
Now let's have a little more fun with 42. If you take the Square root of 42, that gives you 6.48 roughly. Then if you mutiply 6.48 by 42. (6.48*42)That gives you 272.16. THEN if you Divide 272.16 by 7 you get 38.88 which could also be rounded up (A common practice in math) to you guessed it, 39.
My point? I am Jack the Ripper. People, have you ever heard the saying "You can make a mountain out of a mole hill?" or "Make something out of nothing." While I applaud your diligent research and your passion for your theory, at this time I can't put much faith into it. Which doesn't mean one day we won't find a book that has what really happens and also about his black magic arts. (We might who knows) But until then, I can only look at this as having the possiblity if not grounded of being true. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 5:44 pm: | |
Danefirmin,
Thank you.
|
danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 11:01 pm: | |
A few other points of reasoning I came across while thinking about your statments.
1. Tabram was stabbed 39 times. If I were stabbing someone in a fit of rage I doubt I would beable to count to 39 without being distracted for looking out for police officers and other people. I think he just stopped stabbing when he got tired or saw someone coming and it so happen to be 39 times.
2. You said Ann Chapman was killed on the 8th of Sept. Assuming he thought there were 31 days in September. My only thought on this is, how could a person that wouldn't know how many days are in the month beable to figure out some of the more complicated things? Such as added the numerical values of the letters together or things of that nature.
3. The Telegram sent saying the killer lived at 39th.... Two things stick out about this, How would the killer beable to control that telegram unless he was the one who sent it? Was he? I doubt it. It would have been a prank. Also, did Joseph live where that postcard stated? If not, and if you believe that the number 39 has special meaning in this case, you would have to believe that that postcard be true. In which case your suspect for a killer, if he doesn't live there, would be discredited as the killer. It's almost like shooting yourself in the foot.
Again, I'm very new here so there are many many facts that alude me. I'm still learning so all my statements are made off of logic and not fact so much. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 1:32 pm: | |
Hi Danferline,
I have not got a passion for this theory, I just believe the number crops up a lot in this case.
Also I feel that the 39 stab wounds on Tabram[ 38 inflicted by a penknive] could have been done on purpose, it is not hard to count up to that number, if the desire takes you.
Regarding that you can make anything out of numbers , that is correct, but I am not trying to do that just relaying the facts.
Richard. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 1:35 pm: | |
sorry I meant Danefirmin
Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
G'day Dane, Richard, Everyone,
I see nothing wrong with this discussion at all. It's interesting!
Using the numerology numbers game, I broke down my exact date of birth to 22 + 1965 or (30) = 52, which breaks down to 7.
Then I chose another extremely important date in my life, which broke down to 9 + 1987 or (34) = 43, which breaks down to 7......This is fun!
LEANNE
|
danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
That is very true Mr. Richard. I was merely giving an example for the later. I do agree with you that the number comes up a lot of times. though I think most if not all can just be accounted for by coincodence. The most intresting fact was the one you just stated. Only 38 stab wounds were inflicted by a penknife. I didn't know that and it seems interesting to know, what was the other wound inflicted by? |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 2:46 pm: | |
Whatho Leanne,
Your dates don't seem to include the month. My birth date is 22/5/1953 which makes 27 and therefore 9 but it also makes me 50 very soon. Please send cheques.
Cheers, Mark |
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