| Author |
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dlmaugie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 7:01 pm: | 
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The apron has always been accepted as a clue where the Ripper may have been heading.Also, The writing on the wall has taken center stage in most people attention.
However, When you look at the map where the Ripper most likely made his escape from Mitre Square it makes you to second guess yourself. If the Ripper used New Goulston st to enter Goulston St. he would have cross over at the intersection.This would lead you to believe his attention was to head into Whitechapel in the east. To deposit the apron he would had to throw the apron behind him into the doorway with his right hand or half turn and throw the apron with his left hand.
Another possibilty is that he came down Goulston Street from North or south. This may show he left Mitre Square from a different direction.Also, Could explain why the Ripper was delayed.
Why deposit the apron when he did? He may have know he was getting close to a high traffic area and did not want to have it on him?
Why did the Ripper cut the apron off in the first place? He could have wipe his hands off at the crime scene. Could he had cut himself and used the apron to stop the bleeding? These are a few question that we need to ask ourselves.
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 715
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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Hi. I tend to believe that the Ripper, like most serial killers, learned from his mistakes as he went along. Carrying an organ away from a crime scene is a messy business.
Lets say he put it in his pocket. Put your hand into one of your own jacket pockets. Feel all the little bits of rubbish that accumulate in there. They would all adhere to the organ, which was after all sticky with blood and body fluids. This would have made his trophy rather unpleasant in his eyes (not that it wouldn't be even more unpleasant in everybody else's eyes just because it was a uterus!)
So on the next occasion it occurred to him that if he wrapped the organs in cloth before putting them in his pocket, this would not happen. After he had taken the organs safely back to his own hiding place, he then went back out to discard the apron which tied him to the murder, hence the time lapse before it was discovered.
ps. stop outbidding me on ebay!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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This is a very interesting theory. Dave and I have been discussing this by e-mail for a few days and I have to say the idea of using the apron to actually wrap up the organs had never occured to me (shame!). The more I think of it, the more likely it appears to be the whole point of the apron. (Steve - I sent off a registration form to you today so I can be a Registered Person at last). I have to go out and take a Ripper tour in half an hour and tonight for the first time I shall point out the 4 small screw holes in the Goulston Street doorway that once held the (Nos 108-119) sign. In relation to eBay : Anybody on here outbids me and they get to feel a thin long-bladed knife! :o) (By the way, here's a nice recent shot of the Goulston Street doorway I took actually SHOWING the pillar!) |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 674
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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Hi Alan, Philip, dl
Good point about pockets. My question is, if he's learning from his mistakes (which makes sense), and he's had problems with how he's carrying organs away, then wouldn't he have brought some type of container with him? Particularly if he's learning, it doesn't seem likely that he'd turn up with nothing and then just count on tearing away some clothing--what if Eddowes had been wearing no apron? So if he's showing learned behavior, it's reasonable to think he's going to bring along something to carry organ. I'm assuming that he planned to remove organs beforehand. I favor sacking myself, because you can roll it up and conceal it--no awkward questions from any potential victim ("What's in that bag?")
Isn't Dr. Brown's testimony the most detailed we get on what the apron looked like? At the inquest, Brown's presented with it and asked about the blood. Dr. Brown: "On the piece of apron brought on there were smears of blood on one side as if a hand or a knife had been wiped on it." Isn't he describing a towel? I've brought this up before, so I apologize if I'm harping. I don't mean to step on anyone else's opinion here; it's just that I think what Dr. Brown has to say is relevant as he provided some details the police didn't.
So that's just my two cents or tuppence. Apron-talk is intriguing because it's our own little "lost window" into the Ripper's head.
Cheers,
Dave
PS Back to the first post, if the Ripper's coming down Goulston Street from the North, isn't that route needlessly circular? I think it's more likely he was heading north mostly because I believe in economy of movement, i.e. generally, a person will take the most direct and easiest route they can. I know it's a generalization but I lean against the idea that the Ripper was crazy and would therefore have done crazy things which don't make sense (not that anyone has suggested anything crazy here).
(Message edited by oberlin on January 03, 2005) |
dlmaugie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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Alan, I have trouble believing he would risk being caught to deposit the apron.Lets say he did come out again to drop off the apron.I think it would narrow the area where the Ripper lived.Certainly he would not have travel very far to do this.Possiblity a distance of a quarter of a mile at the most?
PS. Sorry about the e-bay thing.I can't help myself!!! Dave
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 165
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 9:05 pm: |
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Alan,
I do wonder whether the Ripper carried his trophies in cloth.. as in Eddowes' peice of apron. But then, why would he drop the piece of apron - what did he do with the organs after that? And if Jack was responsible for Mary Kelly's murder, then what did he use to transport the organ(s) he took?? Did Barnett say that there was anything (material-like) missing from 13 Miller's Ct?
You've got me thinking here....
I have to go back to the inquests to see what organs were taken, I guess.
Bestest,
Lyn |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 8:06 am: |
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Guys,
Like Dave O I feel that the apron was not a carring device. My reasons,
a) Evidence indicates it was soaked in one corner only. This goes against the idea the organ/s (kidney and womb) were wrapped.
b) as Dave O mentions, Brown hints a smearing/wiping. He saw the damn thing, we didnt.
c) Does anyone have an idea about the size of this apron? Its not someting you could easily stuff into a pocket. I reccomend reading Jon Smyths excellent dissertation below.
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-graffito.html
As for the North to south route along the street. This is returning to the area. Yes, I know Serial Killers return to the scene but not with evidence. A pointless act and route. Again Im with Dave O. Efficency. I also believe in looking at the other cases when dealing with the question of escape. To me he was heading for the Old Montague St area. An area not far from Nicholls and Tabram. Its Canters theory I suppose isnt it? Whilst I wouldnt base an exact statement on that it does strike me that 2 murder victims and evidence from a third all end up in that area. Therefore the suspects in that area would be people who'd warrant looking into at least.
My views though, and obviously up for arguement.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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I also believe in looking at the other cases when dealing with the question of escape. To me he was heading for the Old Montague St area. An area not far from Nicholls and Tabram...it does strike me that 2 murder victims and evidence from a third all end up in that area. Therefore the suspects in that area would be people who'd warrant looking into at least.
And Fido placed Nathan Kaminski in Black Lion Yard, which is exactly in the position you hypothesise!!
Not that I think it proves anything, but it's interesting.
Phil
} |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
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Lindsey - as far as missing organs go I have always understood AC had the bottom 2/3 of the bladder, uterus and upper 1/4 of the vagina missing, CE had the left kidney and uterus missing and MJK had the heart missing. Perhaps I know nothing like as much as I hoped I knew (posting on Casebook is a dangerous business with so many folk who outshine you!). This is all amounting to a very disturbing idea about what happened to the trophies. Has anybody checked on East End sales of favva beans and Chiantis in September 1888? By the way, my Ripper walk tonight was on a Bank Holiday. It was amazing. All the streets were deserted and my group had Mitre Square entirely to itself. You couldn't even hear traffic. It was dry, cold and still. Very, very eerie! I'm sorry if it makes you folks abroad jealous. I'm at the murder sites a few times every week. Hee hee hee!!! |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 7:37 am: |
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On the apron - do I not recall that it was smeared with FAECES and blood? (My reference books are at home.) On that basis, I think he needed a piece of cloth to wipe his hands. After all, Eddowes had been plundered even more than the other victims to that point. Blood was not so bad for "Jack" (maybe) but the smell of faeces might have been off-putting.
I think he needed to get away from the square, cut off a piece of apron quickly, then went off wiping his hands as he walked. Once his hands were clean to his satisfaction, he discarded the apron in the first convenient opening.
It might even be possible to calculate his pace and route by mimicking that action, walking the route and seeing where it left one with cleanish hands and a rag no longer useful?
Just my thoughts, of course,
Phil |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 7:37 am: |
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On the apron - do I not recall that it was smeared with FAECES and blood? (My reference books are at home.) On that basis, I think he needed a piece of cloth to wipe his hands. After all, Eddowes had been plundered even more than the other victims to that point. Blood was not so bad for "Jack" (maybe) but the smell of faeces might have been off-putting.
I think he needed to get away from the square, cut off a piece of apron quickly, then went off wiping his hands as he walked. Once his hands were clean to his satisfaction, he discarded the apron in the first convenient opening.
It might even be possible to calculate his pace and route by mimicking that action, walking the route and seeing where it left one with cleanish hands and a rag no longer useful?
Just my thoughts, of course,
Phil |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
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Hi chaps. In regards as to why he had nothing to take anything away from CE, I have already discussed this with Dave. My theory is that he DID have something to take an item away, but after the botch job on ES maybe he used it to clean his hands and disposed of it lest he would be found with a bloodsoaked rag, thus leaving him with nothing to take anything away from CE? Just a possibility. Incidentally, I promise you I uploaded the image of the Goulston Street doorway I recently took showing the pillar clearly but it wasn't on the page as it was too big. Try again (incidentally, folks, I have loads of shots of lesser known sites as they are today. How many of you have yet to see a good clear image of Swallow Gardens or Angel Alley? I can make a thread for them if you're keen).
 |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 677
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Phil,
I don't have my books with me, but I think what they actually said was that it was smeared with blood and something like feces. There's the "feculant matter" spread on the exposed intenstines, so it could have been that, but it also sounds like Kate's stomach had also been attacked and that partly-digested food might have escaped. I remember they took the stomach out and observed that some of the stuff was leaking out of a cut there. I wonder if Kate somehow had something to eat after breakfast and part of it wound up on the apron scrap. Just thinking out loud, I'm always wondering what she was doing that afternoon/evening. I'm no doctor so I don't know if a morning meal would already have passed through the stomach into the intestines by 1:30 am.
Thanks for the photo, Phillip.
Cheers,
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on January 05, 2005) |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 188
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:07 pm: |
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Phil:
If you could post a photo of the Wentworth Building in color [ I've seen the photo by W-E ],that would be great and much appreciated ! |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1482
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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Phil and Dave,
Bonds Post mortem report
"My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin. I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street. It is impossible to say that it is human blood on the apron. I fitted the piece of apron, which had a new piece of material on it (which had evidently been sewn on to the piece I have), the seams of the borders of the two actually corresponding. Some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion that was found in Goulston Street."
Are we stating that the apron was removed on purpose here?
Is it not possible that the apron was ripped away by chance? Im not so sure myself but I would be interested in other views on this idea....however lame it is !
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:53 am: |
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Monty,
you mean would it have just ripped off by hand?
Jenni
ps i am easy to confuse this week!
"All You Need Is Positivity"
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 678
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
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Hi Monty,
I was just writing about what was on the apron. I've always just assumed that it was taken on purpose: his hands were dirty and the apron happened to be in a handy spot. That it was ripped away by chance has never occurred to me--that's not lame, how come you think that? Maybe by 'on purpose', you meant that he needed an apron specifically? I don't think that. IMO, he just grabbed what was handy.
Of interest I'm sure to only me, but just in case: I did some more reading last night and it sounds like the contents of Eddowes's stomach leaked out due to a cut made by Brown and not the Ripper. At least, I can't find any reference to an attack on the stomach, so I suppose that this partly digested food wasn't on the apron. There's starch in alcohol, but I'm not sure it would be in the stomach at 1.30. Despite Byfield, I wonder if the police fed something starchy to Eddowes shortly after she was brought in.
Still don't know why Brown said it's apparently fecal matter. That's one of the few things that when you see it, you know what it is.
Cheers,
Dave |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1484
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
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Jenn,
I dont know what I mean...Im just free thinking here.
I guess the initial rip to open her up may not have sufficed in terms of ripping her open but may have been enough to rip her apron. This followed by a more 'assertive' rip may have resulted in the apron coming away.
The more I think about it the more is seems an half assed idea if I was to be honest.....sorry folks. After all, there is no mention of extra cuts on her clothing.
Monty....who is half a $hitty day today !
PS half a $hitty day?? Obviously I meant to put HAD......but that just proves my point !!
(Message edited by monty on January 06, 2005)
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1485
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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Dave O,
You see, there is an assumption in my eyes that people believe the 'apparent faecal matter' was the result of Jacks handywork. As gross as it may sounds the possibility is there that Eddowes may have left the wipe markings herself (and Im not suggesting the matter was hers by the way). I know my Great Aunt still uses a Apron and often wipes her hands and utensils on her apron....even though they are clean I might add, but you get my point.
Brown only indicates that the blood marking were recent, not the wipe marks. And also he indicates its impossible to tell if the blood spots were human. Another interesting poser !
As for the apron tearing, see my crappy post to Jenn above.....man my days been duff !!!
Monty...who is still a $hitty day, no matter what !
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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Hey Monty,
oh dear!!! don't say that!!!
don't say that i was just getting into the idea. i was just starting to get my head around it.
i mean i dont understand why he did take the apron, only to throw it away, like the next second. it was hardly a trophy if he threw it away now was it?
I always just assumed the ripper cut the apron...maybe that was wrong (i mean never make assumptions that's fatal mistake number one around here!)
Cheers
Jenni
ps come on now sing with me #when your smiling, when your smiling# etc!
"All You Need Is Positivity"
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 680
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Hi Monty,
Hey, it's good to question assumptions, right? It's true, I have always assumed we're looking at Jack's handiwork. But here's why: we know that fecal matter was exposed at the murder scene (the intestines were smeared with it) and the apparent fecal matter was found only on the Goulston street half, the part taken away by Jack.
Cheers,
Dave
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 734
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Monty
In conversation with Mr Evans recently he corrected my mention of the "ripped" apron and pointed me to a reference which indicated that the apron had been cut and not ripped. Unfortunately I can't remember what the reference was now, and can't seem to find it anywhere. But for what it's worth!
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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Hi Howard.
How would this one do you? The doorway is centre frame. If you have yet to see the full building, it is considerably bigger than even this!
And - as a rare treat - how does this one look, folks? This is an old postcard of Goulston Street I recently bought. On the back someone has written 'Some bargains here'. I suspect that is the building in the background on the right, correct? I have loads of postcards of Petticoat Lane market at that time and a few others of interest so I will try to post them on the PICTURES OF THE EAST END thread tomorrow (though it may be a few days before they are up as I'm still an 'outsider')
Enjoy! |
dlmaugie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 3:03 am: |
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Phil H.
Could the writing had been on the wall before CE was murder and the ripper knew it was there?It may had been there from another writer or he may had put it there after his attack on ES( though I have my reservation about her being a Ripper victim). He may had his jolly placing the apron there.He left Mitre Square to Goulston Street to deposit it at that spot.By doing this there could be no mistake that it was from his victim.He already had his trophy for the night.He is also able to put the blame on the Jewish population a bonus if you will.
Dave
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 190
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
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Phil
Thanks very much for going to this trouble. Its much appreciated.
One day,when I invade England,I am gonna go to the Wentworth [ how's the food at that fish and chips joint? ] and check the place out.
Again,thanks very much Phil. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1394
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Philip,the postcard of Goulston Street is a gem!
re The faeces on the apron---you know this could have been the rippers stuff-its quite common for this sort of thing to happen after an experience like he had recently had-he could have messed himself with a sort of fright and tried to clean himself up a bit in the Goulston Street hallway and then threw the cloth away.If it also had blood on this isnt surprising since he may have had to wipe blood off his hands.
Natalie |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 4:08 am: |
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Dave & Alan,
Dave,
Yes, you are right. After a good nights sleep and a cup of Earl Grey my logic has returned.
Thanks for putting me straight.
Alan,
When I said ripped I meant cut....just thought Id try to be hip !
It would be interesting to know exactly which segment was taken. We know it had strings on but half an apron doesnt mean a cut down the middle.
PS Mr Evans????.....heh-heh, you still call him Mr? Its Seward to his pals.
PPS Hiya Mr Evans....if you're reading this !
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3793
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 7:35 am: |
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Hi dimaugie
Very Machiavellian! Well, if we are going to explore this avenue (and why not?) how about Jack shepherding Chapman into a backyard where he knew a leather apron was to be found. Perhaps that was the "joke" about Leather Apron?
Highly unlikely, I hasten to add, but it's fun.
Robert |
Enid
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 6:11 am: |
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Hi
Discarded or placed?
Was the piece of apron tossed aside or was it placed carefully in front of the Wentworth Model Dwellings?
Could the piece of apron have been left deliberately as a sign to someone living in the building?
Was it placed there for reason or reasons unknown?
Enid |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 7:40 pm: |
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The Goulston Street postcard is at this eBay link : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6144738883&fromMakeTrack=true - I wrote the text for the entry for the seller, who hasn't even credited or thanked me for doing it! Pah! |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 6:46 am: |
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Seward? Well I call him Stewart!
Yes - hi, Mr Evans!  |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:20 pm: |
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Oh gross - but you have a point. I can't believe we are all on a big website talking about defaecation - but it appeals to me!
Howard - being a vegetarian I'm afraid I can't comment on the fish & chips from there, but it has to be more relevant than a meal at The Ten Bells would be now, eh? Actually, I don't even know if they do bar food in the pub. I've never seen people eating in there the few times I've been there (in fact the chippy I have only seen open twice; it is NEVER open in the evenings which is very odd!).
I've put on the East End Photos strand a load of other shots and the info that a copy of the Goulston Street postcard (in sepia) is currently for sale (as COULSTON STREET, but I have told the seller so it might be changed) on eBay.
Just a thought about the apron if the matter should have proven to be from JTR. Would this not give rise to suggestions of a Jurassic Park nature? Gaining his DNA if the apron were still extant and recreating him? A Jackrackick Park, if you will?   I'm sorry. That was pretty bad. Still - I hear Hollywood calling, with an idea like that! Probably more realistic than the efforts thus far! |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Interesting idea Dave, but I don't personally think so - I think all theorising is going to be subjective dependant on who you think it was (THAT old chestnut). Going for a faceless Jewish butcher or slaughterman myself, in my view the apron was just dropped where it was dropped and it's as simple as that. I really don't see it as being as convoluted as him planning to drop it just there. It flies in the face of the whole consensus of him being an opportunist. Still, as in all the best theories - you may well be right! I am positive myself the graffito has no link whatsoever to JTR. |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 682
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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Hi Philip
I think it's a word Patricia Cornwell invented-- "seward"; means an ultimate authority for whom you have the utmost respect, kind of like "professor"
Cheers,
Dave |
DLMAUGIE
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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Here's the KICKER. The apron was discribe of having a string attach.The apron is also discribe as being cut where they where able to match up with the remainding part left at the murder site.This is interesting to me for this reason. Im not sure what type of apron we are talking about.Most have two strings on the top of the apron in which it ties in the middle(front or back).Think about cutting a the apron off some one who is lying on there back.Would you not cut the apron at one string and pulled IT THROUGH from under the body ? Or would you cut the front and then at the sting?Thats seems to me to be very difficult.This tells me that he was not as much in the hurry as one might think and he may had cut the apron earlier during the process and not at the very end of the murder. Could the ripper used the string to wrap around his trophies?
DLMAUGIE |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 7:30 pm: |
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Dave O'F : I'm showing my stupidity (or maybe my competancy; I have never read Cornwell's drivel - I saw the BBC OMNIBUS programme on it and knew it would be a waste of time!) - didn't know any of that Seward business!
Dave M : This is a good point. After a little thought I reckon that maybe Jack cut through the apron whilst committing the injuries on CE, maybe cutting through it to get further into the body cavity? Otherwise, you are quite right - it would otherwise have made sense to cut the string and take the whole damn thing with him.
I always presumed the apron was one that just went around the waist with 2 strings at the back to tie at the small of the back. Anyone know any different?
It was VERY windy doing my walk tonight. You got quite a good idea of what it must have been like that night. Incidentally, this is quite relevant - the wind was by far strongest in the entire Ripper area in... Goulston Street! We were literally leaning into the wind whilst walking to the doorway from Wentworth Street, which might add credibility to my thought that it is always possible the apron could have blown into the doorway, though tonight the wind was in the opposite direction. I managed to capture an mpeg of the wind blowing me into Wentworth Model Dwellings though... |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 684
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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Hi Phillip,
Not at all, don't mind my joke. I don't think you missed much by not having read the book!
Dave |
Jeff Stone
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:33 pm: |
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Anybody remember Charles Manson? Commit grisly murders and write things on the walls to make it look like blacks did it? Bring on a race war? Leaving the piece of apron was proof the killer wrote the message |
dlmaugie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
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Jeff, Im on the fence on this one.I think if the writer was ripper I agree with you on both counts. I do have trouble believing it was by accident. |
George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 18
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 6:16 am: |
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Jeff - this was a very different situation. As I tell my tourists "Can you seriously imagine Jack, having killed 2 women in 2 police districts, with half the London police force running after him, coming up to the doorway, dropping a piece of damning evidence and then casually taking a piece of chalk from his pocket he's remembered to put there before he went out, stooping down and writing 'The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing'?" - with his talent to evade capture this is just ASKING to be caught. The Manson daubings at Cielo Drive and Leo la Bianca's house were nothing to do with the race war - that anybody would have interpreted at the time. All the 'Helter Skelter' business is an interpretation Manson told the world after his capture. Have you seen Manson interviewed? He really IS a gibbering lunatic. There is nothing beyond using the term 'pigs' that could be construed as having links to The Black Panthers at the Manson sites. 'Piggies' being a track on The Beatles 'White Album' ('Helter Skelter' being another of course) could also thus exonerate ANY connection to Black Power. Also, another difference is that the murders and writings were carried out in private dwellings where there was no risk of detection.
Sorry, folks, I feel belief in the Goulston Street graffito is but a small step from the mindset to believe Stephen Knight!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 194
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
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Dear George...
Although there IS a difference between someone taking somewhere around 1 minute to placate a message and leave Mrs.Eddowes apron and what Mr. Stone has posted...may I add that Manson intended to leave a wallet in a gas station in a predominantly black area of Los Angeles to accompany the Cielo Drive graffiti,all part of his plan to get that race war kicked off.
Manson may be a gibbering idiot now,but back then he had all the smarts he needed to draw in those middle class and affluent kids.
I think the thing to remember about these people that write cryptic messages is that to us the "Death To Pigs" and "The Juives are the men.." seem unassociated because they make very little sense to us and are rare. However,to the writer,it has a special significance that they revel in. I know you know that,but sometimes its good to refresh our memories because we don't think like they do.
Here's a little post I placed over at The Forums the other day. I had come home from work early to paint and saw this episode on Unsolved Mysteries,the American television program that discusses...unsolved mysteries !
...This episode dealt with the Chandra Levy murder.
Ms.Levy's murder was as print-consuming as the Scott Peterson case was....and frankly I was not interested in watching the broadcast..However,they mentioned that there may have been others murdered by the same hand that is theorized to have killed the late Ms. Levy.
So I kept it on...
I'm glad I did...Here is the URL which shows that there are messages placated on walls in regard to recent murders...I'm not talking about political murders,but those of ordinary people like us.
http://www.unsolved.com/0206-Chiang.html
By the way....the GSG and this graffiti both have 45 letters !!
Not that that means anything....but it is weird,eh?
Both girls also worked in the same profession...another coincidence... |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 469
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
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George Hutchinson posted the following comment on another thread:
" (I also believe it is POSSIBLE it blew into the doorway and wasn't actually dropped where it was found, due to the strong wind that night and my personal knowledge of how windy it can be in Goulston Street!) "
This possibility needs to be investigated. It is important because 1. It would resolve the issue of the graffito. 2. It would explain why it wasn't found till 2:20.
George has personally experienced the windiness of Goulston street, a fact I was not aware of. But I do know that sometimes when I have been in a downtown area with tall buildings on a windy day, the force and speed of the wind is accelerated.
A look at the Casebook weather page indicates there was a heavy rain that night which is not inconsistent with strong wind.
A doorway such as the one in Goulston Street would be a logical place for a piece of blowing fabric to get caught.
Three questions need to be answered. 1) What was the direction of the prevailing winds that night? 2) What was the street layout? 3) Given #'s 1 and 2, where could it have blown from?
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 92
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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This is a subject we discussed in the chatroom last night.
We do know it was windy that night as we have the famous account of the wind blowing out Diemshutz's match.
The fact that Long hadn't found it until 2:55am I had always put down to inefficiency, but now it does seem possible that Mother Nature played her part - and this is no more than a theory. It will take more than the possibilities of what I think to convince me.
There is a pro and a con about this whole area of debate.
In support of my theory, last week I was doing a guided tour of the sites for a group of tourists. It had been raining but had now stopped. The streets were damp but no more than that. Gentle gusts of cold wind had assailed us periodically all over the walking route from Mitre Square and straight along Aldgate High Street to Whitechapel High Street. Along Wentworth Street it was calmer but as soon as I took my group turning left into Goulston Street it turned into a howling gale. A complete difference and something I had not noticed before. However, on this night it was the opposite direction to what you would expect for my theory to hold water (remember if it was blown by the wind, it would have to have been blown from the junction with Wentworth Street as it was inside the door on the right so New Goulston Street can, for this arguement, be excused). Nevertheless, it proved that Goulston Street is a windtrap. I am going to keep a weather eye (ha!) out for the wind directions in Goulston Street over the next few weeks.
Against my theory is the possibility, as suggested to me by several people, that if it had blown down the street, would it not be sopping wet from the puddles and thus too heavy to be blown, or the water perhaps may have been noticed on discovery?
In answer to this, we need to know (if we can!) how wet the street was by, say, 2:30AM (if it was that windy then the water could have dissipated from the street) and if indeed the apron DID pick up dirt and water from the street but this wasn't noticed, bearing in mind all the other matter on the apron?
Over to you.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 471
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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Hey George, How about an experiment. Get some pieces of cotton cloth about the right size and shape. Wait for a rainy windy night. Try launching them from different places and see which one lands near that doorway. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1432
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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As long as you dont do it too loudly Phil.....in
front of the crowd!!!!
Natsxxx |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
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And there's the problem - I don't live in London. I just do my tours there and I'm never at the sites unless I have a load of tourists in tow! Bummer.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 472
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Somebody?
Anybody?
three four five |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 101
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 7:22 pm: |
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Are we going to do what James Tully (?) did and rip up an apron in Mitre Square too (never did understand why he did that! What was the point?). 
Nevertheless - it is something I will do what I can about. I suspect - sadly - I have more ready access to the sites than most on here. Hey guys! Who lives in London?!
PHILIP (in Guildford, 30 miles to the SW!)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1496
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:25 am: |
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Diana,
Im off to Goulston Street.....but not just yet.
Phil,
I dont think you can compare last weeks windy period in January with a stormy night in September. Weather reports on the casebook show no excessive high wind therefore I conclude the Wind in Dutfields yard was due to the stormy weather and the funnelling effect of that narrow yardway.
Wind direction is obviously a factor. On that night the wind would have to have been travelling down Goulston street in order to leave the apron where it was in that corner. This would mean the apron would have had to have been deposited between Wentworth St and the doorway and just further north of the entrance at that. What this means I do not know but it may have a bearing on the direction Jack was heading and the timing.
Personally? Your theory against wins the day Phil.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 27
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:24 am: |
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I remain unconvinced by the "blown in" theory.
It is worth experimenting certainly, but I think JtR would have known the risks of just dropping the rag onto the open street. I think it entirely natural to throw it into a entry-way like the one where it was found. Not least if Jack knew the area and KNEW the opening was there.
EDITED to add:
If experimenting, make sure that the cloth is well stained, and also have some dried blood on it. It is possible that some of Kate's blood (given the lapsed time) may have dried and stiffened the cloth - which would affect the way it blew. Also the wetness might have an impact.
Phil
(Message edited by phil on January 14, 2005) |
