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A. Bunker
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:08 pm: |       |
I'm new to this forum but not to the Ripper murders. There is one thing I've always wondered about, and I'm sorry if it's a stupid question. How come almost all of the murder sites have vanished? Street names have changed and buildings have been demolished. It seems that Mitre Square is the only site left much as it was in 1888. Was there no sense of history? |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | |
Hi Bunker,
No question is stupid, so just jump in here.
Probably the Londoners could answer your question better than me.
I think there a number of reasons:
1) I get the feeling that the Ripper legacy is not the part of the city's local history that the Londoners in general are that keen on preserving. I can't prove it, but that's how it feels. Somehow they seem disturbed and awkward about it (and especially the East Enders don't find this commercial interest in the Ripper as especially pleasant). I believe that is also one of the reasons why the street names were changed.
During the 1960s and 70s there were no sense of history, unfortunately, and that, I believe, was a part of a movement that spread all over the Western world at the time, not just East End.
2) Old streets and blocks vanishing, is not an uncommon feature. This is a development that started in the 1960s and continued on through the 70s and 80s. I've had it at home as well. These local spots had for the most part condemned houses and the cities are in general always on the look-out for new places to rebuild. It can be car parks or new housing programs etc. And it is mostly such old streets and buildings that is in the focus of the demolishing plans.
3) Some parts of the area was demolished during the blitz in the Second World War.
Mitre Square is not left as it was, on the contrary it is totally rebuilt with modern office buildings. Yes, the name of the place is still intact -- and also the original cobble stones, as well as the layout of the square -- but apart from that, it has no similarity with how it looked like in 1888.
It is still a bit creepy, though.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
Hi,
The actual gateway cobblestones, and part of the wall which held the gates are still there in Durward Street, once called Buck's Row. Here Mary Ann 'Polly' Nichols was slain.
A. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 782
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 3:45 pm: | |
Hi,
Out of all of the remaining sites, especially at night[ I can vouch for that in the mid sixties] the Durward street site[ ex Bucks row] is the most creepiest of all, I stood on that spot on August 31st 1965, at exactly 330am in the morning, just to sense the atmosphere. my imagination cetainly gave me that, as a eighteen year old, I was extremely jerky.
Richard. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Ha! Typical!
And Durward Street is of course the only one I never managed to reach (due to lack of time).
However, as I understand, not that many buildings from former Buck's Row is still standing. Essex Wharf, for example, and the row of cottages, are gone, so today I wouldn't say it looks very authentic (I have seen modern pictures).
Still, one place I did reach -- and which I found both gloomy and very authentic -- was former George Yard, now called Gunthorpe Street. Apart from the fact that Georg Yard Buildings at the far end of the street, where Tabram was murdered, is demolished, leading through an archway from Whitechapel High Street by the White Hart pub, this narrow street with its old cobble stones and its remaining old row of cottages and houses really takes you back to 1888. I wouldn't want to go there after dark.
Strongly recommended site, especially since it's not included on the Ripper tour.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Peter Sipka
Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 2:19 am: | |
Hey A. Bunker, and hey Glenn!
Regarding why the sites and names were rid of, I am sort of adding to what Glenn said, but comparing it to present day:
If there were murders like those of JTR in your community, I really don't think that at that current moment or some years later, people would be thinking about the "fascination" of the murder. I am sure they would be disgusted and scared and would not want to glorify a serial killer. So, I think that is the same for JTR. I really don't think it was great times for anybody during that time.
Sometime when I visit the East End, I plan on doing what Richard had done, but for all the murders. I would go out on each date and time of the murders and follow JTR’s footsteps for about four months. It would be all JTR.
Peter
|
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 708
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 11:16 am: | |
Hi,
The change in street names may be partly because of the association with the murders, but also and perhaps primarily because of a general renaming of streets across London. Berner Street was renamed Henriques Street to honor Sir Basil Henriques, who did much for the Jewish community of the East End, so it probably was not just to mask the fact that the Stride murder took place there. Rillington Place where the Christie murders took place was renamed Ruston Close, and more recently "Ruston Mews" -- it is now a select, gated community and the house, 10 Rillington Place, where Christie and Evans lived has been swept away.
The late Adrian M. Phypers aka Viper, himself a London tour guide, used to say that the East End community disliked the ties to the murders and that not much was done to commemorate the murders locally for that reason. We might note that the Ten Bells became only briefly "The Jack the Ripper" pub and that the same thing happened with a bar of the same name in Greenwich village, whose existence was protested by the community in New York as in London. The New York Ripper pub is now a restaurant serving Eastern food. Interestingly though for the New York establishment, the Jekyll and Hyde pub, owned by the same man who owned the Ripper pub, has gone from strength to strength.
All the best
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
(Message edited by ChrisG on April 05, 2004) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2298
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
Hi all
Maybe it comes down to the people making money versus the people not making any. The residents of Hanbury St reportedly charged a penny a peep into the back yard of number 29. On the other hand, Farson tells us that Buck's Row was changed to Durward St quite early on, as a result of a postman's habit of knocking on a door and enquiring "Number 5 Killer Row, I believe?"
Robert |
Jessyca
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 11:34 am: | |
I am just new to the Ripper murders...I am a junior in high school doing a 10-12 page research paper on Jack the Ripper....Does anyone have any information, besides what is offered on the website, to help me out? |
Tiddley boyar
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 7:02 am: | |
We only have to look at the recent murderer Huntleys house, that has lasted only a number of months before being demolished. Quite right too, though they should have left him in it first.
I am sure if some horrific murder occurred next door to most of us or even in our area, we would not welcome the stigma that then becomes associated with it. It would have been the same in 1888 I expect, and it is only looking back, alienated thru' time and not being locals that we can do so with a fascination. |
A. Bunker
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 10:36 pm: | |
All very interesting. In the mid-1990s, the Polanski/Tate house in Los Angeles was demolished. The new owners found it too creepy and have since rebuilt with the intent to sell. No takers. And tourists still flock to the sight to see the spot were the Manson clan were on that infamous night in 1969.
I am a tour guide at Alcatraz Island. Our history is grim but we do everything to preserve it. The tearing down of *anything* would never be allowed. |
Justin Sherin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 8:13 pm: | |
Once again, perspective is important. The Ripper murders were significant events in the social/political history of East London. 120 years ago, the area was a decrepit slum; this characteristic continued through the 1960's, when the last Jews moved out. Before the Bangladeshi influx, the East End was all but abandoned.
As the new immigrants improved their lot -- and the city boys took advantage of cheap land -- the slums vanished, and the murder sites went with them. Why would a neighbourhood full of merchants, artisans and families want to be identified by a serial killer?
Alcatraz is a unique physical record of American crime and punishment, but the Ripper sites contribute little to our knowledge of the crimes. Wander south of Commerical Road if you want a flavour of what it was like. Otherwise, stick to the maps, photographs and testimonies. Concentrate on the event. |
Kieran Brakes
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 1:22 pm: | |
Hi Jessyca,
Do u seek any specific info on JTR?
Kieran
|
Paul Cooper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | |
My ggg-grandfather was born in the George Pub, George Yard, Whitechapel in 1827. George Yard was later the scene of one of the Ripper murders, and has since been renamed Gunthorpe Street.
Does anyone know if the George Pub building is still there, perhaps renamed, or can anyone tell me what may be in it's place.
I'm visiting London next week, and would love to be able to stand where my ancestors stood.
cheers ... Paul |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 12:04 pm: | |
Paul,
I have never heard of a George Pub in George yard Im afraid.
The best I can come up with is the following
GEORGE IV
68 Berner Street
Located on the western side of Berner Street, south of Fairclough Street and at the northern corner of the junction with Boyd Street.
The pub does not exist today.
In 1888 the licensee was one Edmund Farrow. He was related to William Farrow (possibly his son), landlord of the Frying Pan in Brick Lane. Before the end of 1889 William had taken over this pub temporarily, whilst Edmund had moved to The Weaver’s Arms in Hanbury Street.
Though it has no known connection to suspects or victims, this pub is of interest for more reasons than just its landlords. It was close to Stride’s murder scene. William Marshall who lived at number 64, witnessed her with a man close to his house.
The only pub I know in George Yard is the one once known as The White Hart. It was called The Jack The Ripper when I last visited it. I believe Glenn Andersson was there a few months ago. Here is the lowdown.
WHITE HART
89 Whitechapel High Street
Located on the northern side of Whitechapel High Street at the western corner of the junction with George Yard, (now Gunthorpe Street).
The pub still exists today and is a popular haunt with a mixed clientele. Some of the Ripper walks stop at it.
In 1888 the landlord was George Cross.
The mean alley beside the pub was George Yard in which stood George Yard Buildings on the left hand side. It was on a communal staircase there that Martha Tabram met her end. In addition the suspect Severin Klosowski, (a.k.a. George Chapman), worked at a barber’s shop in the basement c1890.
The above information (in bold) is taken from Adrian M Phypers excellent dissertation The House Where Jack Swilled? An Investigation Of Pubs, Beer & The Ripper
Also, this shortcut may help.
http://casebook.org/suspects/gchapman.html
Any use ??
Monty
Face cream.....now thats just gayness in a jar... |
Paul Cooper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 2:42 pm: | |
Monty
many thanks for your detailed and informative reply.
I'm really frustrated here.
I have a copy of the original parish register from St Mary's in 1827, where it states that my gggg-grandfather John Cundell was a victualler of George Yard, but for the life of me I can't find where I made an association with a pub named "The George". I must have found it somewhere, I can't see that I would have made it up, however, I will certainly check out the "White Hart". If I can find anyone in there around 190 years of age, they may remember him
Again, thanks for your response Monty.
cheers, Paul |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:27 am: | |
Paul,
Dont thank me. It was all Vipers work.
I suggest you check out his dissertation below.
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-pubsv.html
There may be a few names that jogs the old memory.
Good luck mate.
Monty
Face cream.....now thats just gayness in a jar... |
A. Bunker
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 9:47 pm: | |
Does there exist anywhere a chronology of the destruction of the murder sites? For example, has it been recorded what sites were destroyed in the Blitz, when certain buildings were demolished, etc? Also, are there any known photographs from later periods - that is, after the murders had passed into history but before the sites were destroyed. A photograph of Mary Kelly's room in the 1960s, for example, or a shot of the yard were Chapman was found taken shortly before the house was torn down. These would all be extremely interesting, at least to me. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Hi all
I don't know whether this has been posted before. Blood Alley sounds hair-raising!
From the "Times" June 3rd 1901 :
Robert |
m.a. spencer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
i just got off a history gcse trip to london and my freind ( he is a bit nuts) set up a locked off camera at the site of one of the murders and at the time the murder happened it got a piece of amazing footage including a scream a stab and the locked off camera moving |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
I first visited the Ripper sites when I moved to work in London in 75/76. Alas i didn't have a camera then.
At that time, Durward St (Buck's Row) retained some of its character. The Roebuck pub still stood on the corner, and Essex Wharf was derelict but the external walls appeared unchanged. The huge Board School dominated the actual murder site - as it still does - though the row of distinctive cottages had been demolished.
When I was last briefly in the wider portion of Durward St in the 90s, the narrow portion where the murder took place was cordoned off for a very thorough re-development, and the Board School seemed to be in process of transformation into apartments.
I have pictures dating from a visit in 1984, and then some atmosphere remained. Last time i could have wept.
In 1976 parts of Hanbury St retained their character, though the site of No29 was by then covered by the brewery.
Dorset st had long gone by the time i knew the East End, but on my first mid-70s visit, I recall Mitre Square as being relatively intact. I now suspect my memory was playing tricks, but I seem to recall some of the wharehouses, and the wooden gates in "Ripper's Corner". It was very atmospheric indeed - spookey even.
By 1984 it was wholly re-developed and looked garish.
Can anyone recall making a visit to Mitre Square around the mid-70s date who could confirm my recollection?
Grateful if they could,
Phil |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 650
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:03 pm: | |
Sorry, Phil, my first visit to London came in 1988. But on a return trip in 1990 I first visited the East End. I took the Walking Tour at that time led by none other than Martin Fido! At that time a few of the atmospheric buildings were still standing -- or rather, tumbling. That seems to have been about the end of the atmosphere. Now, you really have to search.
A little imagination helps with Mitre Square. At least the square still exists. The opposite side of Hanbury St. still provides some atmosphere. That's about it as far as the murder sites are concerned.
Andy S.
|
Ray Urquhart
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
I once saw a very unique cane handle that was said to be a "Jack the Ripper" item. The cane handle was said to be carved from a sabre tooth tiger's tooth and portrayed an animal crouching in wait on a couple of mice or rats. The story I heard was that the item was stolen from a London museum in the 1930's. Can anyone confirm that a "Jack the Ripper" cane handle exists. I have never saw any information anywhere on the item. |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 7:40 am: | |
The "Abberline" walking stick, kept by the Police Training College is the only object of the kind I have heard of. That is in the form of a hooded face, and I think is related to a myth about Mitre Square. It was given to Abberline by colleagues. I don't recall ever reading about a cane of the description you mention.
Sorry
Phil |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 2:08 pm: | |
Hi Ray
As Phil indicated, the only walking stick that we know about that is associated with the case is the one that Chief Inspector Frederick George Abberline was presented by seven officers who worked with him on the case. Please see another thread, "Abberline's walking stick," where we recently discussed this artifact. A walking stick of the description that you describe does not, so far as I know, feature anywhere in the case.
A walking stick does feature in Robert Louis Stevenson's The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde where Sir Danvers Carew is met on the street by Edward Hyde, who clubs him to death with Dr. Henry Jekyll's walking stick. In Stevenson's story, the stick thus proves to be an important link between the genteel Jekyll and the evil Hyde, the same stick, innocent in the hands of one, capable of unspeakable evil in the hands of the other.
All the best
Chris George
(Message edited by chrisg on December 09, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 123
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 2:39 pm: | |
I just got back from Whitechapel and for anyone who is interested I have posted photos of all the murder sites on my website. I can tell you that none of the retain their original character. Mitre square still exists, but the buildings all look relatively new. There are some streets which still are somewhat intact, such as Fournier Street, some of Fashion Street, the opposite side of Hanbury Street. There are also some old buildings left scattered around, such as Spitalfields Market, etc. In my opinion the area in a sense still retains a sort of "authentic" rundown character... Toynbee Street, Wentworth Street, Wilkes. In short, it still seems a bit creepy at night, but maybe I am romanticizing a little.
I think it is too bad that they did not preserve the old buildings, but I feel like that in general... not just in Whitechapel. In the minds of most people, there is no real reason to preserve a "murder site" as a historic site. Also, I think the WWII bombing had a lot to do with it. The East End was bombed pretty heavily... they called it Hitler's "Instant Urban Renewal Plan".
Rob H |
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