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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 437
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:33 pm: |       |
it often looks as though the ripper was trying to draw attention to the Jewish community either in an attempt to throw blame on them or to simply communicate something symbolic about them.
The murders of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes took place on the doorsteps of Jewish clubs
part of Catherines apron was found thrown inside a Jewish tenement block
on the doorway pillar in chalk was found the writing referencing Jews and so "cryotic " that noone has been able to decide what it means
The police thought it had been freshly written
and the apron and the writing were found a few hours after her murder.
Catherine"s face had two strange inverted "v"s or triangles under each eye
Given the strange positions of the bodies of at least four if the victims-
the disembowelling-
and the circular pattern found in some of the cuts it appears that they signify something he wanted to communicate
I thought it might be possible that the two triangles or inverted "V"s under the eyes could be something to do with a "Star of David" symbol
which can be obtained by putting the two triangles together.
Any other thoughts on the symbolic meanings?
Natalie |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:07 pm: | |
Whatho Natalie,
I think it's going a bit too far to suggest Jack was trying to draw attention to the Jewish community.
There was a club frequented by Jews near to Catherine Eddowes' murder site but it certainly was not on the doorstep. The flats in Goulston street were occupied by Jews but I would think many other properties in that area were also so occupied.
Elizabeth Stride was killed outside a Jewish; there I must agree but many, like myself, don't think Jack was the culprit.
As to the graffiti; I have written on this site many times I do not think Jack wrote it (unless he could see in the dark).
And as to the inverted "v"s; well they could mean anything. We have seen claims they represented the two halves of an M for Maybrick. If they had anything to do with the Star of David, I would expect more vs to be added.
The truth is the East End of London had a large Jewish community in the late 19th century and practically any site or event could be connected with the Jews.
Cheers, Mark |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 438
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:11 pm: | |
Hi Mark, ofcourse if you feel strongly that Jack didnt write the Graffiti then other factors such as the close proximity of the Jewish club to Mitre Square doesnt link with anything much and if on top of that you dont think Elizabeth Stride"s murder had anything to do with the ripper then you are even less likelyto see links.
But the inverted "V"s have been described as triangles by various writers and if they were then one triangle on top of the other would indeed make a star shape.Its only a suggestion
and you make valid objections ofcourse!Nice to talk to you again.
Best Natalie. |
Paul Jackson
Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:38 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,
Natalie, you make a good argument and I see your points, but Im not convince that Jack necessarily planned to kill both victims near Jewish clubs. It is my belief that after He had chosen his victim....they just happen to be near those clubs.
JTR does have balls as big as Texas to kill Stride in the yard next to the club...there were
obviously people inside,coming and going, and if he had of been near the club for more than a few minutes then he would have known this.
Mitre Square was so secluded that it was an ideal spot for a killing. Jack had no time to mutilate Stride and not just because of Deimshutz
He could have been discovered at any second.
Anyway...just a thought. Best Regards,
Paul |
Paul Jackson
Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
But I do agree that the apron and Grafitto was placed there for the purpose of stirring up trouble. Which it did.
Paul |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 440
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 4:39 am: | |
Hi Paul yes I am seeing the club in Berner Street
again differently after reading your post---not deserted in the way Mitre Square was certainly.
One thing about Mitre Square though.Quite apart fron the murders the police[city] had put on plain clothes policemen to "watch" the Jewish Club for insurgents/troublemakers.When the police thought Lawende wasnt telling ALL he saw and knew[referred to in several source books]its just possible that Lawende had seen the ripper in that club or knew him from somewhere else.
Ofcourse it might simply have been Lawende being wary of the police and knowing they were engaged in under cover operations watching the goings on around his club.
Anyway it has just seemed to me that the facts are these;
a woman is murdered in the yard of a Jewish club at about !2.45 am and discovered by a Jewish club work and one of the witnesses Shwartz is Jewish or states the man he saw striking Elizabeth Stride
called out "Lipski"-an insult meaning something to do with the man who had recently been hanged for a murder nearby[again a Jewish case].I admit noone yet knows what this actually meant or who was being addressed.
Anhour or two later half a mile away another woman is found murdered close to another Jewish club and the murderer has been seen by three Jewish members of that club
The famous writing is found in a doorway where numbers of Jewish people have settled and refers again to "Juwes" whereupon the police s**t themselves and order one of the only clues we have to be rubbed out!
But still it could all be coincidence [or the ripper mischief making] because clearly the police at the time were terrified of unrest and popular uprising and the last thing they wanted was accusations -false or otherwise-circulating
about the Jewish inhabitants of Whitehall.
Best Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 868
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 8:18 am: | |
Hi Nat,
If we assume the ripper was familiar with the Whitechapel streets because he either had temporary or permanent lodgings there, and/or worked there, this wouldn't tell us whether he was Jewish or not.
It's not necessarily true in Jack's case, obviously, as there will always be exceptions, but serial killers will often stick to attacking the 'enemy within', so to speak - in other words people of the same race as themselves, that they feel have betrayed them in some way, or let the side down as it were.
Such people will also often exhibit bigoted views about those who are 'different', particularly racially.
If the ripper was white and non-Jewish and a Whitechapel inhabitant, either by accident or design, surrounded as he would have been by Whitechapel Jews, I can easily imagine him entertaining and expressing anti-Semitic sentiments, and believing the prostitutes in this area were the lowest of the low for accommodating Jewish customers.
If one accepts that the ripper could have encountered Stride and shouted "Lipski!"; if one accepts that the ripper could have written the message on the wall, blaming specific Jewish men for getting in his way that night, or blaming Jews in general for their presence in the area; and if one accepts that the police considered this one example of graffito (even once the apron piece had been removed from beneath it) to be too full of racially provocative and accusatory overtones to be allowed to remain long enough for a photo to be taken; the night's events are all very suggestive to me of a non-Jewish ripper operating in a Jewish area - and making a song and dance about it.
But then, we all have our biases. 
Love,
Caz
(Message edited by Caz on March 16, 2004) |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 454
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 9:13 am: | |
Hi Caz, yes and thanks for such a well argued post!
Everything you say makes good sense and on balance the law of probability here points to
a non Jewish ripper-of the type you begin to describe with just those sort of prejudices.
OK but three senior police Anderson Swanson and
Macnaghten have Kosminski[it appears to me anyway]
as either the ripper[Anderson backed by Swanson]
or their second most likely suspect.What I think I am trying to find out is why?
Why pick out this particular man and tell us he was the ripper? [Anderson]
They must have had more on him than that and I wonder whether it was the identification that was said to have been carried out.If it was by a Jewish witness he may well have refused---Lawende
may have known him from somewhere else and not have wanted to identify him in the first case-it is reported the police werent satisfied with Lawende"s description as they felt he wasnt coughing up all he knew etc etc
As regards the other matters such as IF the ripper wrote the graffito this to me is still a puzzle;if it was say Kosminski he could have been saying something to do with an old testament prophecy,he could also have meant "take that you b**t**ds" "gotcha".{if it was Kosminski and he had begun to rave it would have been something to do with a grand order of things possibly}-anyway its ambiguity seems to have got everyone stumped because unless it was something the writer felt strongly about I really dont think he would have written it.I wonder too whether your local racists would have confined themselves to the rather bland and fairly mild[non-swearing]language? Even the use of the word "Jewes/Juwes" is mild other more abusive terms would have been used by someone with a grudge about his Jewish neighbours I would have thought.
Good to talk with you Caz,
Best Nat |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 457
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:05 am: | |
PS Caz I Am reading your book.Its a great read and I know Merseyside well having been born there!
Mawbe I"ll be able to join in some of the discussions about the diary now!
Nat |
Chris Michetti
Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
I still think the V's on Eddowes are Jack marking his 5th victim, much the way he left an X on Carrie Brown...possibly his tenth!
Chris 
|
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
Really Chris !? So who was his first victim for
your theory?
Why make the V"s upside down then?
I think he was trying to write "Mummy"!
Wow thats inspirational! |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 525
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | |
Chris
So the FM that many people think they see on the wall of Mary's room, the M part could actually be VI! |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 905
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:29 pm: | |
Chris,
That's an interesting idea. I presume you count Martha Tabram then. I often think of her as the first victim myself but can't quite decide.
Although I don't know why he would have done two V's.
Natalie,
Why make the V"s upside down then?
What if they weren't upside down to him when he did them?
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 887
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:30 pm: | |
Hold on,
2 V's...not 1.
Monty
 |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
just for fun, let's see.
I tabram
II nichols
III chapman
IV stride
V eddowes
VI kelly
then take your pick of any 3 between then and carrie brown, eg:
VII mylett
VIII mackenzie
IX coles
X brown ---not only was there an X carved into her skin, there was an X left engraved into the wall next to the door of the room where she was killed.
you never know!
ps. Alan I thought about that thing on MKJ's wall too.. interesting.
Chris
|
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 201
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 2:31 pm: | |
Chris,
Could there be others besides those you listed? Maybe another one or two in America that was not associated with him? Food for thought.
Mikey |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
That's possible; when I was reading Wolf Vanderlinden's "A New York Affair 1 and 2" dissertations I *think* (could be wrong) there was some discussion of more than one possible Ripper victim around that time. I will try to look it up again. However Carrie Brown showed the telltale ripper signs to a degree, but the knife was a regular kitchen knife and was also left at the scene, which isnt very Ripper-esque.. unless leaving the knife behind was an indication that he was done with killing. Who knows!
(Message edited by pl4tinum on March 18, 2004)
Chris
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 8:13 am: | |
Ah, I found the thread at last...
Continued from the Mary Jane Kelly thread...
Hi Natalie,
"...you appear to be casting aside evidence that could be the key to the whole case"
What evidence? I must confess I don't see any clear facts or crime scene evidence pointing at any form of communication in the Whitechapel murders.
Now, my resistance against reading too much into the alleged symbolic elements connected to the murders is purely based on the lack of true signs of that such elements exists.
Then, of course, one can always speculate. The Ripper could have deliberately placed the apron beneath a message he could have written, incriminating the Jews. He could have murdered Stride near a Jewish club because he wanted to send a message. The intestines could have placed by one of the shoulders as a part of a symbolic ritual action etc etc. Could, could, could...
I am sorry, Natalie, but that is not how I work.
I try to keep an open mind about things, but I am not prepared to read meanings into things that aren't really there, unless we desperately want to see it.
The facts indicate nothing of the "ritual" and symbolic ingredients that is implied.
And I must say I find it very hard to see the choice of victims and locations as "communication". In fact, there are no "strong signs of communication" at all. The only interesting factors pointing in this direction that I can see, is the positions of the victims' bodies and that they were left out in the open. That can't be over-looked. But then again, it wouldn't be that easy to dispose the bodies in the crowded East End in 1888, with no transportation and also considering that the murderer was very much stressed for time and that he could have been caught in the act any minute. So even this point could simply had its practical reasons.
I am not prepared to draw conclusions out of "evidence" that really are nothing but very free and unsupported interpretations of the facts available.
I also think you over-rate the importance of symbolic "leads" when you refer to those as "among the most important ones we have". As I've stated and repeated quite a lot of times already, these "clues" are completely worthless to us, unless we are able to crack the code of the symbolic ritual elements or the language in the "communications". And if there really were such elements clearly displayed (which I can't see), I don't see any real possibility in us or anyone else today cracking those communication codes. Therefore the whole effort, and "ritual" starting-point is a dead end and leads nowhere, because we wouldn't be able to grasp the meaning of it anyway.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 478
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 9:11 am: | |
Hi Glenn,I do see your methods have bearing on your reluctance and thats your approach.OK,fine.
I dont see how the case could be solved without some "brainstorming" if you like about the various bits and pieces of clues left in the crime scenes and other places.
The way I see it is that Anderson /Swanson named "Kosminski".So did Machnachten[well he was his second choice]
This makes me ask WHY?
So its true that I am looking for any evidence to support this before saying
a]that Anderson was telling porkies for self aggrandisement which may be the case
b]that Machnaghten was telling porkies to his own police officers [his memorandum wasnt for public consumption only internal information for his fellow police officers].
So why did they both pick on Kosminski if the only wrong doing was his being engaged in "solitary vices".
Maybe both officers WERE trying to protect the name of a fellow police officer-Charles Cutbush.
Maybe the name Kosminski was picked from a hat!
But if he was a major suspect ,if he wqas indeed the ripper as Anderson says then I look for clues that lead him to the murders.
First off is that he seems to have suffered from paranoid schizophrenia
so I ask myself "What are the most known symptoms of this?
and one of them is the emphasis on the symbolic
"an eye in the centre of the forhead= the eye of he who created all things etc. etc
A reliance on signs and symbols and of course -hearing voices telling them what to do.
Well the Kosminski of 1891 certainly thought he was "hearing voices" and "being guided by a force outside himself -among other things.
so now I look to see if there is anything cryptic in these murders.Well yes actually there is.
The first for me is the signature way of "cutting"
then the position each corpse is put in that tells us why the police at the time thought only 5 murders bore the rippers signature each ones legs were positioned in a certain way-and each apart from Elizabeth Stride were naked waist down.
This to me seems to be his way of drawing attention to the area of the body he is most troubled by and determined to be the most destructive with.And ofcourse it is the womens most private area-prostitutes or not-and one which is usually covered even to this day.
So to me a message is being sent about something to do with immodesty and maybe disease and possibly their violation of feminine modesty[in his head]by what he took to be their chosen profession and ofcourse then his "punishment"for that[although he would be carrying out instructions rather than doing it off his own bat].
The more I think of the two clubs in the one night
the more I think these must have been a haunt of prostitutes and he knew it -and didnt like it.
It seems he was reasonably confident to be acting out adjacent to them and I have therefore wondered about ohter things as well such as him knowing the lie of the land round the clubs .
Enough for now
Thanks for a carefully thought out response Glenn
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1307
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:21 am: | |
Thank you for a great response as well, Natalie.
I do see your points also.
And I naturally think speculation and brainstorming is important in old cases like these, but I nevertheless usually prefer them to be based on more solid facts than written messages where we can't even be sure about the author, or by placing of objects on the crime scenes (not really are that convincing or consistent enough to draw conclusions from).
I believe that it is possible for the Ripper to be a paranoid schizofrenic, but I am not prepared to use Macnaghten's or Anderson's interest in Kosminski as a source on that. There are a lot of problems with the Macnaghten memoranda, as I see it, and Macnaghten never really handled the case in 1888, so he based his information on what he had learnt in retrospect. But that is another debate.
The paranoid schizofrenic thing is a tough one; one of the most apparent symptoms are hallucinations and delusions (like hearing voices etc.), but I am not so sure that necessarily have to imply the use of symbols. The V-shaped marks are only seen on Eddowes, and therefore I seriously question their importance as symbolic elements on the killer's behalf. If we had seen them on Chapman as well, I would have given them another thought. Symbolic elements in rituals are mostly repeated and therefore I can't totally exclude the possibility that the placing of the intestines over one of the shoulders could represent such a sign -- but I also think we shouldn't jump to conclusions about it, since it could have other, simpler explanations.
I do see your points as far as the positions of the victims and the legs are concerned, and if I would see a sign of such symbolic communication, that could very well be it. I can't rule it out. But besides that, I don't see any other form of communication.
The mutilations and the cuttings are of course part of what we call signature, but a signature mostly refer to what represents the killer's ultimate goal and satisfaction in connection with the crime; it doesen't necessarily has to do anything with communication, although naturally it does for some perpetrators.
Paranoid schizofrenics usually perform crimes for their own personal reasons and to fight their own devils, not to trumpet a message to the outer world or the authorities. In contrast to many psychopaths, they are not that interested in attention. But that is of course based on generalisations and all killers are individuals in their own right. However, nevertheless...
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 19, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 481
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Thanks very much Glenn for you take on this which is most valuable.I am going to let this all sink in now and see if anything new comes of it
Cheers Natalie. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1311
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:34 pm: | |
Thank you, Natalie.
Cheers.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 489
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 1:52 pm: | |
I may be wrong here but I think some of the famous bible punchers of the past have been seriously considered to suffer from that illness
I"m thinking now of John Brown with all his fire and brimstone and chilling readiness to slaughter,and Savanarola and his Bonfire of Vanities etc seemed to have been more than ready to advertise themselves and their fanaticism
This last was shared by Hitler whose murderous fanaticism led him to try to construct an Ayrian Super race again with zealous readiness to slaughter millions of Jews,[and a number of other minority groups while he was at it]-and here again the same condition is thought to have been the motivating personality.No shrinking violet was Hitler.
So fanaticism is often a feature of this illness too.
As regards symbolic meanings,manifestations of the illness abound in symbolic representations
though you are quite right that their meaning is often known only to themselves.
OK Glenn your turn now!
Best Wishes Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 490
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 1:59 pm: | |
I forgot Glenn to say that I have been looking through the Bible today to see if I can find any
hints of what may have been "misinterpreted" by him.I read Habakkuk2:1"for the stone shall cry out from the wall".....that was as far as I got though!
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 2:22 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
Well going through the Bible is a tough job, so that's admirable.
I really don't know what to answer to it, except that we musn't confuse "ordinary" schizofrenia with paranoid schizofrenia. I am by no means an expert on the subject, but as far as I know -- and if I may lean myself upon rather rough generalizations -- delusions and twisted interpretations of reality is a well known symptom in both categories. However, as "paranoid" in paranoid schizofrenics indicate, that particular group often are unsure unsure of themselves and sees threats everywhere and that is the main point behind their aggressions. It is true that fanaticism apply to schizofrenics in general, but a paranoid schizofrenic is usually not interested in delivering "statements" to the outer world, on the contrary, they seek protection from it and seek seclusion. And their attempts to follow voices or impulses are generally a matter between themselves and the forces that drives them. I am not sure if Hitler could be considered a paranoid schizofrenic, although I believe he did display some paranoid traits in the end. I think his "condition" is more complicated than that.
Aaah, now I'm beginning to sound like an amateur psychologist, so I better shut up now... 
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
|
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