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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 627
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:08 pm: | 
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Robert (House)
Sorry - I don't know anything about Polish divorce records.
It did cross my mind that Golda's age would allow Woolf Kosminski to be her son. On the other hand, I'm not convinced there's any reason to think he was Aaron's brother if the "brother" referred to in the records is thought to be Woolf Abrahams.
If Golda was really the mother of Matilda Lubnowski (nee Kosminski), then - unless she was divorced from Matilda's father - she must also have been Aaron's mother, and must have given birth well into the 40s in the 1901 estimate of her age is right. So it seems unlikely she could have gone on to have children by her subsequent husband, Abraham Joseph Abrahams.
As for research in Poland, I think it would be reasonably straightforward to have a search done for Aaron's birth if we can come up with a place whose records are worth searching. It seems to me that Warta might be worth trying if that's the best candidate for "Wattan" in the naturalisation record for Morris Kosminski of Berner Street.
Chris Phillips
(Message edited by cgp100 on January 15, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3896
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Robert, I confess I know nothing of Polish, or Jewish, genealogy. I wish I could help more.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3897
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:16 pm: |
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An article in the "Times" Dec 6th 1897 concludes with the words :
This convalescent home was presumably distinct from, yet part of, the asylum proper. A tentative suggestion : could Swanson have heard that the Ripper had been identified at "the convalescent home" and jumped to the conclusion that it was the Seaside Home? (Not that Aaron was convalescing - he was incurable - but perhaps the authorities found it more convenient to have the identification in the convalescent section)
Of course, this doesn't explain the other difficulties with the Swanson marginalia, but maybe it could help with the asylum/seaside home problem.
Robert |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
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Don't worry guys, we'll weather through this mess. I'm trying to get some translations done now. One tip if anyone hasn't tried it before: If you type in the name "Kos(z)minski or (y), in the index search, use the soundex option to capture alternate spellings. I did one for all of Poland, and came up with about 200 Kosminskis throughout the country. But this was before the recent update of records.
Incidentally, I think it's very unlikely that Golda was in London prior to about 1892. She does not show up in the 1891 census with the Lubnowski-Cohens at 63 New Street, yet she does in 1894, on Aaron's committment papers to Leavesden, "Mrs. Kosminski."
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/ |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 327
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 3:07 am: |
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Greetings all,
I don't know if anyone is as thoroughly confused by this Slavic maze of names as I am.
All I want to know is, is the Spring Onion related to Steuart the Boy Soprano?
And I swear Chris Phillips, I am definitely none of the mystery unregistered guests above. Not even "Dennis from Australia". |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 328
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 3:10 am: |
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Greetings all,
I don't know if anyone is as thoroughly confused by this Slavic maze of names as I am.
All I want to know is, is the Spring Onion related to Steuart the Boy Soprano?
And I swear Chris Phillips, I am definitely none of the mystery unregistered guests above. Not even "Dennis from Australia". |
Christopher Lowe
Police Constable
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
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Nice to see a decent public sphere on the boards. A public debate generating more information and may possibly lead to a conclusion. |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 632
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 5:48 am: |
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Looking for naturalisation records on the online catalogue of the UK National Archives I came across the following references.
Each is headed "Nationality and Naturalisation".
Possibly these have all been checked already. Certainly I've seen references to the naturalisation papers of Martin and Morris Kosminski.
Abrahams
Too numerous to mention, but apparently no Abraham or Golda. But this one may be relevant:
HO 144/187/A45961
Abrahams, Woolf, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A5239 issued 27 January 1887.
Lubnowski
HO 144/303/B4419
Lubnowski, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A5910 issued 2 October 1888.
HO 144/617/B35410
Cohen, Israel Lubnowsky, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 12024 issued 22 May 1901.
Kosminski
HO 45/9452/69905
Kosminski, Martin, from Russian Poland. Certificate A2482 issued 7 January 1878.
HO 144/185/A45664
Kozminski, Daniel, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A5288 issued 17 February 1887.
HO 144/293/B1470
Kosminski, Samuel, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A5430 issued 14 June 1887.
HO 144/384/B20040
Kozminski, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A8944 issued 23 April 1896.
HO 144/1087/194213
Kosminsky, Samuel, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 19749 issued 21 November 1910.
HO 144/2273
Kosminsky, Myer (known as Myer Woolfe), from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 9,941 issued 26 March 1923.
HO 144/2835
Kosminsky, Alexander (known as Alexander Woolfe), from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 10,660 issued 6 November 1923.
HO 144/4971
Kosminsky, Joseph (or Joseph Kosmin), from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 12708 issued 28 November 1925.
HO 144/12709
Kosminsky, Samuel, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 18402 issued 24 June 1930.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3921
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 8:22 am: |
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Interesting and complicated, Chris. Was this "our" Martin Kosminski? There is a "Times" report of a Mr Kosminski being robbed of skins in the early 1870s.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 633
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:04 am: |
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I think it probably is "our" Martin Kosminski, despite the fact that the date of 1878 is a year later than the date given in Scott Nelson's dissertation on this site. "Coles, Kosminski and Levy – was there a Victim/Suspect/Witness connection?"
Of the others, I suppose the Morris of 1896 is the same Morris who lived in Berner Street (possibly at the time of the murders), and whose naturalisation records state that he was born at "Wattan".
Probably the Samuel of 1887 is Martin's brother. (Samuel the furrier is described as naturalised in 1901.)
Perhaps Daniel is the man who appears in census records. Like Aaron, his occupation is given as "hairdresser", but according to my notes in 1881 he lived at 10 Bromehead St, and in 1901 his address is St Marylebone (I haven't seen the full 1901 entry). (But Daniel the hairdresser is described as a Russian subject in 1901.)
Morris Lubnowski must be the husband of Matilda (nee Kosminski), whose naturalisation papers have been seen.
Israel Lubnowsky Cohen must be some relation of Morris, whose family also used the surname "Cohen". He doesn't appear in the 1901 census as Lubnowsky, and there are too many Israel Cohens to track him down. (I don't know whether he is in Morris's household in 1891.)
Woolf Abrahams may be the husband of Betsy (nee Kosminski). Or it may not - "our" Woolf Abrahams is also described as a Russian subject in 1901. If it is "our" Woolf, and is new, it may be interesting.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3924
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
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Hi Chris
Daniel was living in Upper Baker St, St Marylebone in 1891, and was still there in 1901, with wife Rosa and daughter Bessie.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 656
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 8:56 am: |
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I looked at three of the Naturalisation applications yesterday. I think at least two of the three have been seen before, but some of the details were new to me, so I thought I'd post some notes here.
Chris Phillips
__________________________________________
HO 144/187/A45961 WOOLF ABRAHAMS
Memorial.
Woolf Abrahams of 62 Greenfield Street Whitechapel.
A subject of Russia having been born in the Empire of Russia in the year 1860.
Of the age of 26 years, and is a Tailor.
Resides at 62 Greenfield Street Whitechapel.
A married man, and has 3 children under age now residing with him, namely:
Rebecca Abrahams, aged 4 years,
Rachel Abrahams, aged 3 years,
and
Milly Abrahams, aged 6 months.
Has resided within the UK for a period of 5 years and upwards within the last 8 years
"namely at Greenfield Street aforesaid. Your Memorialist has during the whole of the period from June 1881 to the present time resided at Greenfield Street aforesaid, namely at Numbers 58, 74, 64 and 62."
The mark of x Woolf Abrahams
Declarations 20 December 1886
Woolf Abrahams [as above]
John Wills of 180 Burdett Road Mile End, Coke Merchant,
Joseph Moore of 3 Coke Street Greenfield Street, Whitechapel, Bootmaker
John Hall if 102 Whitechapel Road, Registrar of Births and Deaths
and William Shead of 57 Brick Lane Spitalfields, Grocer
They vouch for him having known him 5 years and upwards (JW, JM), 4 years (JH) and 3 years (WS).
Memorial and evidence sent by A. Barham, Solicitor (paper headed Hoe Street, Walthamstow), to Godfrey Lushington Esq 29 Dec 1886
Report dated 12 January 1887. Adds Journeyman Tailor, and that he is a member of the Naturalization Society.
Alfred Leach, Sergt
George H. Greenham, Actg Superintendent
Report transmitted 15 January 1887 to Home Secretary by James Monro Esq. Assistant Commissioner of Police, C.I.D.
__________________________________________
HO 144/303/B4419 MORRIS LUBNOWSKI
Memorial.
Morris Lubnowski of 16 Greenfield Street Whitechapel.
A subject of Russia.
Of the age of 31 years, and is a Boot Maker.
Resides 16 Greenfield Street Whitechapel.
A married man, and has 4 children under age now residing with him, namely:
Joseph Lubnowski, aged 9 years
Bertha Lubnowski, " 7 "
Annie Lubnowski, " 5 "
Samuel Lubnowski, " 3 "
Has resided within the UK for a period of 5 years and upwards within the last 8 years
"namely at 10 Plummers [sic] Row Whitechapel Middlesex from June 1881 to December 1882, at 32 Yalford Street Whitechapel aforesaid from December 1882 to December 1885 and at 16 Greenfield Street aforesaid from December 1885 to the present time"
[Signed] M. Lubnowski
Declarations, 13 and 16 June, and 26 July, 1888.
Morris Lubnowski [as above]
Joshua Jabez Hunt of 80 Commercial Road Middlesex Sole Sewer
George Ishmal [Ishmael elsewhere] Crow of 11 Charlotte Street Whitechapel Middlesex Leather Seller
John Hall of 102 Whitechapel Road Middlesex Registrar of Births and Deaths and
[deleted throughout: William Shead of 57 Brick Lane Spitalfields Middlesex Grocer]
William Andrews Barrett of 180 Burdett Road Mile End Middlesex.
They vouch for having known him 5 years and upwards (JJH), 5 years (GIC), 3 years (JH), 2 years (WAB)
Memorial sent by A. Barham, Solicitor (paper headed 5 Great Prescot St Whitechapel), to Godfrey Lushington Esq 19 June 1888
Report dated 9 July 1888. Adds that he is a member of the Mutual Naturalization Society.
Ernest Freeman P. S.
John Shore Superintendent
A separate note points out that JJH is not a householder, but manager for Mr Jas Lardeau, Grindery Dealer, 80 Commercial Road E, and lodges on the premises.
Report transmitted 10 July 1888 to Home Secretary by James Monro Esq.
Further declaration 26 July 1888 by David Taylor of 41 St Peters Road Mile End in the County of Middlesex Gentleman (5 years and upwards)
Sent to Lushington 3 August 1888.
Report on Taylor 10 August 1888. W.Turrell P. S. John Shore Superintendent
Transmitted 11 August 1888 to Home Secretary by [A. F.] Williamson Chief Constable for Asst Commr
__________________________________________
HO 144/384/B20040 MORRIS KOZMINSKI
Memorial.
Morris Kozminski
36 Christian Street St George in the East in the County of London
Subject of the Emperor of Russia.
Born at Wattau in the County of Kalisch, being the son of [deleted: Israel and] Barnett and Rachel Kozminski who were both Russian subjects
[His place of birth has been read as Wattan previously. I can see why, but I've compared the final letter carefully with the other examples of 'u' and 'n' on the page, and I read it as 'u']
Aged 32 having been born on the 19 September 1863
By trade a baker.
Married and has 2 children under age residing with him viz.
Israel - 7 years of age
Betsy 6 years of age
Has resided within the UK for 5 years during 8 years immediately preceding, namely
"From December 15th 1889 to January 10th 1895 at 70 Berner Street St Georges East in the County of London
From January 10th 1895 to Present time at 36 Christian Street St georges East in the County of London"
[Beside the first is written 5 [years] 0 [months], and beside the second 9 [months]]
Declared 24 September 1895
[Signed] Morris Kozminski
Declarations in support by:
Henry William Simes, 2 Pembury Road Clapton London Traveller
William Harries 32 Christian Street St Georges in the East London Dairyman
Edwin Edgley, 15 Dempsey Street Stepney London Coal Merchant
Robert George Simes, No 13 Queensdown Road Clapton, co London Flour Factor
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 657
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 9:08 am: |
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A few comments on the Abrahams and Lubnowski applications.
These at least give us a reasonably precise date for their arrival (and presumably that of Aaron) in England - June 1881. This date seems to fit well with Robert Houses's suggestion that they may have emigated as a result of the pogroms in Poland in early 1881.
It also gives a detailed account of their movements since their arrival, Woolf Abrahams having lived at different addresses in Greenfield Street, and Morris Lubnowski having lived in Plumbers Row, Yalford Street and Greenfield Street. (Though I haven't been able to find Yalford Street on a map.)
There is also a definite year, as well as an age, for Woolf's birth, which may be helpful in investigating the possibility that he was Aaron's step brother.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3994
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 9:15 am: |
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Great work, Chris. I see that 180 Burdett Road comes up twice.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 658
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 9:24 am: |
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Some comments on Morris Kozminski's application.
Firstly, I read his place of birth as Wattau, not Wattan as it has been previously read. So I'm inclined to think this is present-day Warta, as I suggested previously. Warta is in the Gubernia of Kalisz, which would correspond to the "County of Kalisch" in the document.
Secondly, on the face of it, the statement that he had lived at 70 Berner Street only since 15 December 1889 shows that the later presence of a Kozminski so close to the scene of Stride's murder can only be a coincidence.
Having said that, I'm a bit puzzled how this can be reconciled with Morris's appearance at Berner Street in the 1889 directory (as Scott Nelson posted).
There is also the statement in the 1891 census that Morris's 2-year-old son Israel had been born in London, which suggests Morris was in London by April 1889 at the latest. In the 1895 application, Israel is said to be 7, which would place his birth even earlier.
Perhaps a search for Israel's birth registration would shed some light on the puzzle (if it hasn't been searched for already). But the date of 15 December 1889 given in the application would have to be wrong by more than a year to place Morris Kozminski in Berner Street at the time of the Stride murder.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 186
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
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Excellent work Chris.
One quick question: What is meant by "Memorial"? Also, do you have dates for these Naturalization applications? It is frustrating that the application for Morris Kozminski lists the town (?) and county of his birth, but that Woolf Abrahams' and Morris Lubnowski's don't. Rats.
Keep going man.
Rob |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 659
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
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Robert H
My dictionary defines memorial, in this sense, as "a written statement of facts, esp. of the nature of a petition, remonstrance, etc."
The first two memorials aren't dated, but were presumably written at the same time as the accompanying declarations (i.e. 20 December 1886 for Woolf Abrahams and 13 June 1888 for Morris Lubnowski).
That's a good point about the first two not specifying the place of birth. The memorials were written on printed forms, and by 1896 the form had become more detailed, including the phrase "he was born at". So I have hopes that the application of Israel Lubnowsky Cohen - presumably a relation of Morris Lubnowski/Cohen - dated 1901, will include a place of birth in Poland.
Incidentally, I have just checked Paul Begg's recent "The Facts", and he does give the sequence of streets where the Lubnowskis had lived (p. 376), though he dates their arrival in England only as "in 1881, probably at the same time as Aaron."
Elsewhere (p. 370) he says that Aaron "entered England in 1882". This is based on Aaron's burial record, which states that he had been in England for 37 years (p. 506). But as he died in March 1919, I think this is equally consistent with his having come to England in June 1881, together with his sisters and their husbands.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Excellent work again Chris.. especially in narrowing down the date of Aaron's (probable) entry into England. |
Edgard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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I noticed a William Harries between those in support of the Naturalisation applications for Morris Kozminski.
Is any relation possible with Harry Harris, the witness of the Eddowes murder? |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 2:25 pm: |
|
Hi
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, or if it has any bearing or use at all, but on the 1871 census there is a Janet Kosminiski, an unmarried servant aged 21 living at 32 Pelham St. Mile end New Town. Her place of birth is given as Kurlisk Russia also.
A possible earlier arriving relation?
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 665
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Robert H's thread on the 1894 O.S. map:
http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/map/index.html
enabled me to find Yalford Street, where the Lubnowskis lived between 1882 and 1885. It's a narrow street parallel to, and between, Greenfield Street and Plumbers Row.
The reason I couldn't find it on the 1873 OS map was that it was called New Street then (another one!).
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 668
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 5:12 am: |
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I have looked at a couple more of the naturalisation applications at the National Archives.
It seems likely that Israel Lubnowsky Cohen, who applied for naturalisation in 1901, was an elder brother of Morris Lubnowski Cohen (Aaron Kosminski's presumed brother-in-law). According to his application, he was born in Poland in 1856, and was the son of Joseph Lubnowsky Cohen and Leah Lubnowsky Cohen. Crucially, his place of birth is given - he was born at "Klodiva in the Province of Kalish Poland". (I think this must be Klodawa, about 50 miles north-east of Kalisz.) Israel also stated that he had lived in the country for the past 13 years, although the ages of his children in the 1901 census suggest he had still been in Poland 12 years before.
The other application I looked at was by Daniel Kozminski the hairdresser. I can't see anything in the details to suggest a connection with Aaron. Daniel was born at "Tusching near Lodge Poland" (Tuszyn, about 10 miles south of Lodz), and said he came to England in 1873. Oddly, the application would place him at 12 King Street, Tower Hill, at the time of the 1881 census, whereas the census return itself shows him at Bromehead Street. It's also discouraging that although the records from Tuszyn for this period have apparently been covered by the "Jewish Records Indexing - Poland" project, Daniel's birth doesn't show up in their database:
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/town/tuszyn.htm
I believe this gives us for the first time a firm indication of where in Poland one of Kosminski's relatives was born. This link shows the location of Klodawa (red star near the top), in relation to Kalisz, where Martin and Samuel came from (2/3 of the way down on left), Warta, where I presume Morris was born (2/3 of the way down, left of centre), and Tuszyn, where Daniel was born (not marked, but about 10 miles from the centre of Lodz on the main road to the south):
http://tinyurl.com/5jto8
The bad news is that these papers are closed for 100 years, so the following applications can't be seen:
Kosminsky, Samuel, 21 November 1910.
Kosminsky, Myer (known as Myer Woolfe), 26 March 1923.
Kosminsky, Alexander (known as Alexander Woolfe), 6 November 1923.
Kosminsky, Joseph (or Joseph Kosmin), 28 November 1925.
Kosminsky, Samuel, 24 June 1930.
Chris Phillips
__________________________________________________________
HO 144/617/B35410 ISRAEL LUBNOWSKY COHEN
Memorial
Israel Lubnowsky Cohen of 46 Rutland Street in the Parish of Stepney
A subject of Russian Empire
born at Klodiva in the Province of Kalish Poland
on the 14th day of August 1856 and being the son of Joseph Lubnowsky Cohen and Leah Lubnowsky Cohen both Subjects of Russian Empire
Resides at 46 Rutland Street Stepney E
and is of the age of 44 years and is a Hebrew Teacher.
A married man and has children residing with him viz:
Matilda aged 14 years
Rachel aged 13 years
Joseph aged 11 years
Kate aged 9 years
Raphael aged 8 years
Annie aged 5 years
Jane aged 3 years
place of business at 46 Rutland Street Stepney E
Has for five years within the period of the eight years last past resided within the United Kingdom vizt:
46 Rutland Street Stepney E from February 1894 to the present time.
[Signed] I. L. Cohen
23rd January 1901
Declaration of memorialist
Also declaration of William [Hutchins: deleted] Henry Hayman
Joint declaration of William Hutchings Henry Lyon Solomon Solomons William Henry Hayman
WHH of 86 Fieldgate Street Whitechapel
Has known ILC during residence at 46 Rutland Street from February 1894 to the present time.
Personal knowledge from visiting him for a period of 5 years.
[signed]
Declared at 58 Plummers Row Whitechapel 23 Jan 1901
ILC [signed] Same place and date.
WH of 58 Plummer's Row Whitechapel E
HL of 4 Yalford Street
SS of 2 Anthony Street Commercial Rd
WHH of 86 Fieldgate Street Whitechapel
[all 5 years]
Further investigations showed that Cohen had lived at the address since February 1896, not 1894.
He is described as "an illiterate man", also as a respectable man, and states he has resided in this country for the past 13 years.
His landlord was Mr J. Hodges, of No 5 Carlton Road, Mile End.
__________________________________________________________
1901 census (RG 13/326, fo. 55/p. 32) Mile End Old Town civil parish
No 204 / 46 [Rutland St]
Isreal Lebnovsky Cohen / Head / M / 47 / Hebrew Teacher / own account / Poland
Leah Cohen / Wife / M / 40 / / / Poland
Joseph Do / son / S / 12 / / / Poland
Matilda H. Do / Daur / S / 16 / Pupil Teacher (S.B.L.) / / Poland
Rachel Do / Daur / S / 14 / Milliner / Worker / Poland
Kate Do / Daur / / 10 / / / London Whitechapel
Annie Do / Daur / / 6 / / / London do
Janie Do / Daur / / 4 / / / London do
[?]Zelik* Goldstein / F in law / Widr / 71 / Retired Hebrew Teacher / / Poland
__________________________________________________________
HO 144/185/A45664 DANIEL KOZMINSKI
Memorial.
Daniel Kozminski of 102 Hounsditch in the City of London Hairdresser.
Came to England in 1873 and is a native of Russia having been born at Tusching near Lodge Poland [insertion in different ink: October 20th 1853] and has lived in the United Kingdom ever since and for the last 5 years and upwards
at 10 Church Street Rotherhithe 7 years
At 12 King Street, Tower Hill from October 1880 to October 1882 2 years
At 102 Houndsditch from October 1882 to the present time 4 years
[total] 13 years
Married but has no children.
[Signed]
Declaration 2 December 1886
Daniel Kozminski, Marcus Meyer, Morris Britton, John Hyman and Abraham Jacobs
MM 57 Houndsditch Wholesale Trimming Warehouseman [confirms King St and Houndsditch residence]
MB 307 Mile End Road Oil Merchant [5+ years]
JH 132 Houndsditch Commission Agent [5+ years]
AJ 5 Phils Buildings Houndsditch General Dealer [5+ years]
[all signed]
Declaration of DK [signed] 24 January 1887
(Message edited by cgp100 on February 04, 2005) |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 671
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
|
Going back to Morris Kozminski of Berner Street, I was previously a bit puzzled by the apparent contradiction between his statement that he lived at 70 Berner Street from 15 December 1889 onwards, and what I thought I'd read - that he appeared in the 1889 P.O. Directory for that address. (I can't now find the statement of this, and I think I may have misunderstood what I'd read.)
Anyhow, I checked the directories yesterday, and Morris doesn't appear at that address in the P.O. Directory until 1892.
I also checked for the birth registration of Morris's elder son Israel, and found an entry in the index for Israel Kosminsky, St. Geo. East (1c. 372) in the 2nd quarter of 1888. (This is consistent with the ages given in the 1891 census and the naturalisation application.)
However, I don't think Morris's presence in London in 1888 is in conflict with what's said in the application, because in view of Daniel's application it seems that the practice may have been only to give details of residence sufficient to cover the obligatory 5-year period.
So I don't think there's any reason not to accept that Morris moved to 70 Berner Street on 15 December 1889. But on the other hand, he was in the same district as early as mid-1888.
What I thought was interesting - although it's probably no more than yet another coincidence (or perhaps a Kosminskidence?) - is that Morris Kozminski, baker, is immediately preceded at 70 Berner Street by one Wolff Abrahams, baker, in the directories for 1890 and 1891. No one is listed at this address in the 1889 directory (and there is no Morris K in 1891, and no Wolff A in 1889 or 1892).
This seems unlikely to be the same man as Aaron's brother-in-law Woolf Abrahams, because he is described as a tailor, both before and after this date.
But if nothing else, it has brought home to me that I still don't know where Woolf Abrahams was living at the time of the murders. I have him at 62 Greenfield St on 20 December 1886 (naturalisation application) and 3 Sion Square on May 26 1890 (birth certificate of daughter Matilda).
Is there really a two-year gap in which we don't know his whereabouts?
Chris Phillips
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Kesker
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 10:30 am: |
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Hi.
I'm afraid I have nothing to add to this conversation other then I am in fact a Kosminsky. You've no idea who amazed I was when I first got the internet and googled my name to find that one of my ansestors was a suspect for Jack the Ripper. Other then that I only know as much as you do.
Just thought I'd mention this.
Rachel Kosminsky |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:14 pm: |
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Hi Rachel
Do you happen to know if your family line includes any of the Kosminskys mentioned above, say Morris Kosminsky, the East End baker, or else Martin Kosminsky, the West End furrier? Ironically, it appears that Morris had a shop on Berner Street in the East End where the Stride murder took place (though not necessarily meaning he was connected to the murder), while Martin had premises on Berners Street off Oxford Street in the West End. We need to sort out the exact relationship between the different family members and see where Aaron Kosminsky fitted in among them, if he did so.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by chrisg on February 17, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
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Rachel,
Feel free to contact me at robhouse54@hotmail.com I would like to ask you some questions if you really think you are a descendant of any of the Kosminskis discussed her on this message board.
Rob House |
Kosa One
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Arron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper!
" Kosa was the ripper cause Kosa was seen,
Kosa was the ripper , you know what I mean,
Israel seen him, and thats no lark,
Where Kosa was with Lizzie, it was not dark"
Kosa, the whacko wrote 'From Hell'. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 7:27 pm: |
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Kosminski was kinky if you know what I mean,
To play with himself was he ever so keen.
It got him in trouble one day in Itchy Park,
When Morris Lubnowski figured Aaron his snark.
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 206
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 1:46 pm: |
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General Question for all:
I have been thinking lately about the fact that Kosminski was a "hairdresser". Historically, there has been a connection between barbers and surgeons.
This has been addressed in the dissertation A CUT-THROAT BUSINESS by Andy Aliffe (http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-cutthroat.html)
I quote: "Apart from cutting hair and shaving, their more familiar civilian role was to perform minor surgery such as blood letting, treating wounds and lancing abscesses and some were also trained in the operation of removing gangrenous arms or legs. By definition they had "some rough anatomical knowledge". "
In Poland, the barber-surgeon was known as a Feldsher, which translates roughly to "old-time barber-surgeon" or "assistant surgeon". I am thinking about Sims statement that "He the polish jew suspect) had at one time been employed in a hospital in Poland".
"the training of a feldsher involved mainly a prolonged apprenticeship under the supervision of an experienced practitioner, after completion of secondary school" (http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol05/vol05.079)
I think I remembered reading that a "hairdresser" was a term for a person who generally only cut hair, while "barber" may have been more like a feldsher.
Is there any chance that Aaron Kosminski was trained as an assistant feldsher in Russia, and that this would explain Sims statement? I am just throwing this out there to see if anyone wants to weigh in on it.
Rob H
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 749
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 5:38 am: |
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Rob
What strikes me is the number of parallels between Aaron Kosminski and George Chapman/Severin Klosowski - not only their both having been barbers/hairdressers in England, and both having been stated to have been previously employed in hospitals in Poland, but their near-identical ages and even the fact that they both seem to have lived in Greenfield Street in the 1880s!
Their places of origin in Poland also seem likely to have been very close together. Chapman is said to have been born in "Nagornak", Poland. Unfortunately I can't locate this place - presumably it's been copied from author to author without anyone identifying the modern name of the place. But if McCormick is to be believed (which is always doubtful) "Nagornak" was in the district of Kolo, which is only about 10 miles west of Klodawa, where Kosminski's presumed relation Israel Lubnowsky Cohen was born.
In view of the similarity of their surnames (K*os*ski), one might almost be tempted to propose a Kosminski/Klosowski confusion theory. I daresay it could be made at least as plausible as the Kosminski-Kaminsky-Cohen suggestion.
More seriously, it's a bit unsatisfactory that the statement about Kosminski having worked in a Polish hospital comes from such a distant source as George Sims. In the past I've been a bit dubious about this because he must have been quite young when he came to England (only about 16). But I hadn't noticed that, according to Sugden, Chapman's apprenticeship to a surgeon began in 1880, when he must have been only about 14.
So Kosminski could at least have begun such an apprenticeship before he left Poland. Whether and where one could hope to find any contemporary records to confirm this, I don't know. Sugden doesn't refer to any, saying he is giving detailed source references only to aspects of Chapman's life directly relevant to the murders.
Chris Phillips
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2030
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:26 am: |
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Hi Chris,
from what you have said actually a Kosmonski/Chapman confusion theory sounds possible!
certainly one wonders why the leading police officials would be thinking of different people if trying to convince the public they actually knew who JTR was.
Jenni
"Pick up the papers and take them to Tobermory!"
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Carolyn
Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
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Hello,
Thank you for posting the above information. I was not aware of the term,"feldsher". If this term also applies to Kosminski, trained before he left Poland - opens up all kinds of possibilities.
Giving me more things to think about, damn!
I know the Kosminski/Klosowski confusion theory was said in jest, but I have had my share of confusion when reading about the two of them. There are so many parallels between them. Maybe they are evil twins?! Ha!
Has anything been said directly about Kosminski being a feldsher? Also, is the only reference about Kosminski working in a Polish hospital from George R.Sims?
Thanks,
Carolyn |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 12:04 pm: |
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The Kosminski-Klosowski confusion theory has every bit as much relevance here as Aaron's masturbation fantasies do in Itchy Park. There is no empirical evidence to substantiate whatever. Thus there is no reason to accept the theory. |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Dear Chris Phillips:
Not to be a wise guy, but are you or anyone else using maps of Poland from post-WW2 to find Nagornak ?
Nagornak may have suffered the fate of Lidice,in the former nation of Czechoslovakia....that is, being completely wiped out. Lidice,however,has been rebuilt since the end of WW2. Maybe Nagornak wasn't.....
If I can find it,I'll look at the old map of Europe I have around here and will e-mail you if I find it.
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4270
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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There seem to be two Nagorniks and a Na Gorach.
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PL/
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 754
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 4:52 am: |
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Howard and Robert
Thanks for those suggestions.
The Nagorniks sound plausible enough, but as far as I can see neither of them is anywhere near Kolo. But perhaps McCormick just got that wrong.
Chris Phillips
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Cledus
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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Can you be more specific when you say barber or hairdresser.One is for men , the other for women.Today, only gay men are hairdressers. If this Kosminski was a hairdresser, than this sais alot about his mental state and plausability as a suspect.Also, whats with the masturbating in public thing, I never herd this one?
Thanks, Cledus the slack jawed yokel |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 230
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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OK, so I was reading this book about serial killers by Peter Vronsky, I believe it is called the Method and Madness of Monsters. Anyways, in this book, he discusses how serial killers do some practice runs, take their fantasy "out for a walk" so to speak. But then, they are set off to kill by some "trigger"... getting fired from a job, death of a family member, etc. etc. So I have often wondered, if we are considering Aaron to be the Ripper, what might have been his "trigger"?
Then I discovered this article "Tower Hamlets 1888", published in the "East London Record ", no.2 (1979) see http://casebook.org/victorian_london/tower1888.html
The author says:
"It was that year (1888) that the Jewish immigration problem first broke surface. In those very same parishes, where racial violence prevails today, political agitators were already mouthing the same rhetoric derived from the lowest common denominator - the irrational fears and hatred festering in the mind of the slum dweller. With local unemployment and housing shortages, then, as now, a major pressure gauge, 1888 was the year of opportunity both for political demagogues flying the anti-alien kite and the new style social investigator."
Now, we know that the Kosminskis likely immigrated to London in 1881-2, and the mass westward exodus of refugess from the pograms in Russia occurred around this time. But for some reason, 1888 is identified as the year "the Jewish immigration problem first broke surface". In my mind, this could be related to the "trigger"... if there were anti-jewish agitators, articles in the press, etc... this could have reminded him of the situation in Russia just before the pograms broke out there. This also in my mind could be tied to the graffito: "The juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing".
My question is this: does anyone have any more specific information about the anti-jewish agitation that occurred in 1888? Were there riots? I know of one anti-jewish riot which occurred I believe around Sept 15 (in other words, 15 days prior to the double event and the Goulston Street graffito). Were there specific other incidents, articles in papers, anti-jewish rallies, etc. that may have preceded the series of murders? In other words that may have triggered the series..
Thanks for any help in this.
Rob House |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 233
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
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You guys have any input on this? Chris Scott, Chris Phillips...? Any suggestions on where I might find such information?
RH |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 842
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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Rob
I did wonder when I read your quotation whether it might refer to the antisemitism that occurred in the wake of the earlier Whitechapel murders, rather than something that happened earlier. But I don't know.
The Royal Historical Society bibliography turns up quite a lot of references that would be useful for exploring the background, if you have access to a good enough library. For example, this is a search using the keyword "anti-semitism", limited to 1888:
http://tinyurl.com/dlgdy
Chris Phillips
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 7:44 am: |
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Rob,
Again you have triggered an interest.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 235
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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I like to keep you busy Monty. ;)
RH |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 4:16 am: |
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Rob,
The idea that anti-semitism was the trigger is. to me at least, an unlikely one.
A trigger would be a sudden life changing event, usually stressful, that 'sets them (serial Killers) off'.
Seeing as the Kosminskis were probably involved in the Russian pogroms I feel that basically persecution and harrassment would have been the norm for Aaron. Something, though unpleasent to say the least, that can be handled.
I cant see it as a trigger, which usually is a more personal event.
Cheers,
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1780
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 6:46 am: |
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Hi Rob,
Last August Professor WJ Fishman gave a talk on
events in Whitechapel.He is a leading authority on these areas you are looking into.He has himself written extensively on the East End at this time.There are some excellent books-East End Jewish Radicals/The Streets of East London etc etc.In this[The Streets of East lon.....he writes on pages 115/6...."on 5 July 1888 672 women downed their tools and quit the factory[Bryant and May Match makers].The East End rallied to their aid....
momentous happenings-not least for women."
In fact this Match Girls Strike was the powder keg that set off all the latent volcanic forces-the "annus mirabilis" [or OK "horribilis" depending on which side you were on] culminating in the formation of the first Indepenent Labour Party in 1893 .Fishman writes about all this in these books.He also points out the role of the Arbeter Fraint[The Dutfields Yard Radical Jewish Workers Paper and printing press]in rallying Jewish forces to work with Gentiles to establish common aims etc.
He is sure to be able to furnish more insight into your question about anti-Semitism at this period.People who may be able to help you contact him by email would probably be adrian Morris or Caz [Caroline Morris] |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 238
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
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Hello Caz and/or Adrian Morris,
Do either of you have contact info for Professor WJ Fishman?
Rob |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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I've read Fishman extensively, and recommend him. He makes important contributions as an historian, but his writing style is soporific. It's like eating a plate of warm macaroni with no sauce. Nothing of the zip and verve of a David Radka there.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1807
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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David
Yes he is a bit bland at times but what a treasure chest of East End life can be found there!
Natalie |
Kyle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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Hi,
I 100% agree that the outbreak of antisemitism in 1888 fits right in with these crimes.It also fits in with the Glousten St Grafitti.Many of the migrants to the East End had alresdy come from countries where they had been persecuted as jews.They arrived in England thinking it was a safe haven for jews and all people.Put yourself in thier shoes for a moment. They now find themselves being persecuted in England in 1888.So I think, one, or more, had reached their breaking point and decided to make a stand.
Thus the message " The Jews will be blamed for nothing" . I wondered for a long time what this meant until it hit me. The NOTHING means just that. The jews are not going to be blamed for nothing - something they have not done.The murders were the vehicle to say that a stand was being made in England, and they are not going to be blamed this time round.
Thanks |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
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Kyle,
I agree there was anti- semitism in the East End in 1888 but not that there was a specific outbreak
of it.
I agree that there were people anxious to blame the Jews for the crimes of JtR.
There were plenty of others who seemed ready to link up over various issues with long term East Enders. |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 239
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
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Monty,
The reason that I think this may have been the trigger, is that it would have triggered memories of the atrocities that Aaron witnessed in the pogroms in Russia... he may have seen it as a similar environment. I am not saying in any way that this was a conscious, rational decision that was made as a result of anti-semitism, but rather that it would have been a complex psychological and emotional reaction to the rise in anti-semitism. In my mind, I picture the pogroms to be similar in brutality to the way jews were treated by the Nazis in Lodz, warsaw etc... perhaps more brutal in a sense, because it was mostly sudden attacks... the type of atmosphere which in the 20th century has become associated with being the precurser to genocide, in Rwanda for example. So if he experienced this sort of violence and hostility first hand, this would have created a psychological wouynd so to speak... and my idea is that the wound was re-opened by the sudden rise in anti-semitism in London which was a backlash to immigration, competition for jobs, high unemployment, poverty etc. I realize that "triggers" are usually a more personal event, such as a death, or getting fired, etc. But this is an unusual case. I can picture that this person (Aaron) would have been filled with a deep anger, and that this resurgence in anti-semitism pushed him over the edge, with a general anger and resentment for society at large. Combine this with a confused sexual fantasy world (evidence of which this being his masturbation), and quite probably a paranoid schizophrenic personality. This is how I am seeing the situation.
Rob |
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