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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3528
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 2:28 pm: | 
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Inaki,
Indeed, you got the ball rolling -- no doubt about that. 
Once again, thanks for your many interesting contributions and quite intelligent interpretations. I agree with others here that you are a great addition.
As for the focus on the sexual organs on tabram, I might have to stand corrected. It actually says, as you stated, Inaki, that the vagina also was attacked. OK, fair enough. I had missed that.
Still, looking at the cuts on Nichol's groin, I see very little similarities with the direct stabs into the vagina, that the sketch show on Casebook.
Now, just some comments:
"And I really appreciate all the efforts some people have done to dig up all that interesting and valuable information. But, however interesting and valuable they may be I still believe they go to (my so-called) Facts-Substitute #4. Why? Well, basically because that argument not only applies to Martha’s murder but to the whole Ripper’s murders! Although he wasn’t the first serial killer, JTR was the first to create a world-wide media frenzy around his killings."
Well, of course. Naturally! But this was probably -- as I said -- more a result of the growth of the illustrated tabloid papers plus the fact that they were a part of a series, more than their actual nature.
If we look at a number of crimes involving mutilation before 1888, they are clearly horrific enough in nature.
Why representatives for the authorities did react to that extent on the Emma Smith and Tabram murders I can't explain, because clearly they were wrong and did subject themselves to exaggerations, if we carefully study the facts of crime history.
And some of this crimes did get reasonable coverage (although it can't be comoared to the hysteria during the reign of the Ripper) -- the so called Whitechapel Murder in 1876 (involving the mutilator Henry Wainewright) did actually manufacture headlies that were rather impressive for its time. To pick one example.
So crimes of this nature did exist prior to the Ripper murders.
The hysteria was really to a large degree a creation of the press, and with that also increases the risk of copy-cats or peopel getting inspired of what they read.
We can see this also at the end of the Ripper period, where a number of copy-cats (at least in my view) pops up. And that is pretty much what can be expected in an environment that is so caught up in hysteria.
This hysteria -- and which fueled the tabloid press and illustrated papers (The Star really took off thanks to the Ripper) -- started with Tabram, which explains to some degree why the Tabram murder was seen as extraordinary and terrible beyond compare. And then, when the press (even before the police) are beginning to realise, after the Chapman murder, that the murders might be a part of a series, the fear and hysteria REALLY takes off big time.
Fact remains, looking at the horrific nature of the previous killings, the Ripper murders were not unique.
"Well, I don’t want to dwell on this subject too much, but I guess that if I were bent on murdering and I wanted to keep a low profile, I could find the way of getting round it (and I don’t know if that would have been a real problem). Besides, the killer could’ve just put a coat on and hide the uniform"
I actually can't say that I buy this. Sorry. I do not think this is possible for a soldier; win the Ripper murders we are not just talking about a long coat being seen. I am, as I said, no military expert, but I think this is a big problem.
"The “soldier theory” actually doesn’t account for why, if Martha had been strangled and was already unconscious, her attacker/s butchered her so horribly."
Why shouldn't this be possible for a soldier? After all, soldiers are involved in butchery as I see it, and we know some get affected by it in a negative way. I think especially a soldier could do it without questioning. Not ANY soldier, but surely you might have found psychotics also in the army in 1888, especially under influence of drink.
"This theory harps on the hypothesis that Martha’s murder was as a result of a sex deal that went wrong. My contention is that her murderer had the stamp of a maniacal killer and I don’t think this fits the scenario of the soldier who just blew a fuse and overkilled her (without the need for it) savagely."
Eerh... I'm sorry, but I have come across several such cases. In case you didn't know it, prostitutes are subjected to all kinds of loonies all the time, and it is next to minework and wood cutting among the most dangerous in the world. And most certainly was in 1888. You never know what to expect from a customer. I really don't see your point here. Why can't a client disputing over money turn into a raving maniac if he has that disposition?
"Also, Peter Turnbull (The Killer that never was) argues for the theory that the murders were “copycat” murders perpetrated by different men, amid a community that went into some kind of state of “mass hysteria.” "
The same idea has been put forward by Alex Chisholm and to some extent also Stewart Evans. Some conclude that one can really be certain of three canonical Ripper victims: Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, and I totally agree with this, although I am prepared also to possibly include some of the earlier ones (note the word "some").
I certainly do not believe all fell into the hands of the Ripper. As I see it, Jack the Ripper was very much a creation of media hype and that it stirred a lot of copy-cat spinoffs.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 627
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |
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Inaki - the basis of what I wrote was something AP Wolf wrote in another thread. I suggest you take the matter up with her.
Sincerely,
Phil
(Message edited by Phil on June 09, 2005) |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 252
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 2:50 pm: |
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Glenn,
Perhaps I am not getting my sources correct... this is from Quentin Pittman's article on Tabram:
"While Tabram's throat was not cut, she did receive approximately nine stabs to it. The breast, stomach, abdomen, and vaginal regions were the primary areas assaulted, with a deep wound penetrating the heart, and another penetrating the womb area above the vaginal region."
I realize that Killeen's testimony as summarized in the Times does not specifically back up this statement, so I am assuming Mr. Pittmans statement is backed up by some other source, but I do not have my books with me, because I am at work.
About the profiling thing... version two (from my earlier post)... to me it makes sense that serial killers would share some character traits, or similar backgrounds, and upbringing.
Cripes, I am actually somewhat relieved that we seem to agree on something for once (almost anyways.)
RH |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3529
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Rob,
""While Tabram's throat was not cut, she did receive approximately nine stabs to it. The breast, stomach, abdomen, and vaginal regions were the primary areas assaulted, with a deep wound penetrating the heart, and another penetrating the womb area above the vaginal region.""
True, I just now, thanks to Inaki, found a similar passage by Dr. Killeen that I had obviously missed. My mistake.
As you say, it was probably summarized in The Times.
However, looking at the sketches on Casebook about the victim's wounds -- as I wrote to Inaki -- the penetration of the vagina area doesn't really look that similar to cuts on the areas close to the groin in example Nichol's case. Although that does not in itself prove anything, they are clearly not of the same type. I still feel unconvinced about that, but of course that's just my interpretation.
As for the stabs in the throat, I personally think it is a vast difference from that to a cut throat three weeks later. It is in my view a completely different thing to do. So on that point we will probably never agree.
"Cripes, I am actually somewhat relieved that we seem to agree on something for once (almost anyways.)"
Yes, it's scary, isn't it?
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on June 09, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3530
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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Phil,
"Inaki - the basis of what I wrote was something AP Wolf wrote in another thread. I suggest you take the matter up with her."
What do you mean... her????
Or was it a slip of the tongue?
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 529
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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Glenn.
You said..."I for my part fail to see Howie's point here. If people were asleep, why on Earth should they have heard a knife hitting the body flesh? Only one cut was really deep, the others were rather small stabs (although there were many of them).
I may be wrong, but It goes beyond me how those could be heard if people were asleep at the time."
Glenn..there more than likely was some noise being made,regardless of whether these wounds hit bone or not. See Jane's post above for acoustics in buildings similar to the one in George Yard.
I'm not trying to make a point at all, just an observation on the Tabram murder based on the risks involved. We both know that the murderer took a risk in an occupied building while on the second floor landing. Big or small...there was risk.
...Neither of us nor anyone else on the boards know how loud the assault was. It certainly wasn't a silent one. We don't know if anyone was awake or not for certain. Regardless of whether someone was or wasn't isn't an issue. What is a fact is that this crime made some noise...period.
Don made a comparison with the murder of Kitty Genovese,which happened outdoors.
There's a difference between the noises made inside the building where Tabram was killed and the all-out screaming of the unfortunate Ms. Genovese.
One significant one is that people respond to noises inside their home and in their buildings more than to what occurs outside. The possibility of property being taken or an apartment being broken into will make most people react faster than an attack on a stranger,outdoors,with the possibility of a weapon and "what is happening to her could happen to you". Altruism only goes so far in cases where you,as bystander, could get hurt as well.
Had someone definitely heard noises resembling a break-in at the George Yard Bldg., which of course, Glenn, is not what I was stating at all, I think someone would have reacted to these noises,as perhaps as quickly to the shrieks of a woman who never got the chance to make one.
You understand now,Glenn?
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 532
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 9:53 pm: |
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Glenn...
You learn something new every day around here.
Yep...A.P. is a lady.
....furthermore, in the post that you made regarding the sleeping tenants and how on Earth they could have noticed the sounds I alluded to,I was only, repeat, only referring to the risk-level of this particular murder in relation to the Canonical Five. I forget at times that English is your second language,although you speak and relate to it on a par with the best of them. So I wanted to clarify this for your benefit,as I want you to understand what I meant in my post.
Don....
Actually,the women who "help" me in my little tests get a kick out of the "loco gringo".
(Message edited by howard on June 09, 2005)
HowBrown
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 632
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 1:43 am: |
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Howard, you got there first. Sorry Glenn, I thought you knew.
Phil |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 3:26 am: |
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Glenn, Rob,
Guys,
Re signature. Interesting posts chaps (and all who have contributed).
Just something I would like to add and I apologise if it has already been mentioned.
Theres been plenty of words typed regarding signature wounds. Whilst this is a part of signature other factors should also be considered. Body position is a factor though in Jacks case this may have been born out of the need for practicality.
Its the rifiling of belongings and the placement thats seems to be a signature trait to me. Chapman and Eddowes bare evidence of this. Kellys folded clothing may (note may) also be a signature sign. Nichols, Tabram and Stride lack this but that may be due to possible disturbance.
Am I wrong?
Sorry if I have trespassed onto the wrong thread.
Cheers
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 105
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 5:22 am: |
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Ok, my take on signature:
(By the way, I agree with what Monty said)
Serial killers often have a condition called Narcissist Personality Disorder. This is a feeling of self-importance, and an obsession with fantasies of unlimited success. The person involved are often convinced that he or she is special and unique. These people are devoid of empathy, envies others and uses others to achieve their success (Vaknin).
The NPD syndrome makes the serial killer become obsessive with his fantasies. Thus their actions are geared towards their emotional satisfaction.
The signature gives away some of this.
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3532
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:09 am: |
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Monty,
You are allowed to hijack any thread,
Actually, I DID mention body position among signature traits.
Because you're right, it is.
As for placing of belong. That is true, but I am not sure if we see that in the Ripper anyway, and it pretty much depends on whom of the victims we include. True, Chapman's belongings seems deliberately placed, so I agree, that may have been signature. Agreed.
As for Kelly (even though I don't reckon her as a Ripper victim)... I actually think she folded those clothes herself before she went to bed! I don't see that as the work of her killer.
Helge,
True, but narcissistic traits generally also is included in other personality disorders, like psychopathy/sociopathy/APD and even among some that suffers from paranoid schizofrenia, so that is always a tough call. I do not dare to go into a complete psychological diagnose of a criminal 116 years ago.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3533
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:14 am: |
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Phil, Howie,
(Howie, I'm still not bying your arguments regarding sounds -- sorry, old boy).
Guys,
Not that it matters, but you gotta be kidding me. A.P. a woman??? A contributor with the Boards most masculine approach, sounding like an old man with a beard sitting in his cottage drinking brandy?
Do you have evidence of this? Do any of you guys know her/him in person? (Or perhaps... wait a minute... maybe it says so in his/her book...?)
Because if that's the case, then a certain very well-known and prominent Ripper researcher has totally pulled my leg.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on June 10, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2514
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:25 am: |
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Glenn,
something you just said caught my attention. if kelly folded the clothes herself, then does that mean you don't necessarily think she was killed by a client?
Jenni |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 186
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:55 am: |
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Hi Glenn, inaki and all
Well its certainly taken some time to catch up on the conversation this morning.
And find it facinating how many people agree Ada's Attack to be a possible early JTR. Her discription of the Sunburnt attacker must be the most reliable of Jack himself if this is the case.
Interested in all your comments. I think everyone knows I've always been pro-can Tabram.
Another similarity between the Five and Tabram is surely the silence itself.
If this was a Soldier who blow a fuse what is the chance that he did it without shouting? Surely a dispute about money would start verbally and escalate. Surely most attackers make noise when inflicting blows...you only have to watch mordern tennis to get that.
So our main problem seems to be the soldier's statement to the patrolman. Can we look at this?
Glenn is it possible for you to make this case in more detail. I might have gotten the wrong end of a stick but I had always assumed that this story relied on Pearly Polls statement that they left with soldiers.
I guess its a cheek but is it possible to list the time frames and widows of possibility for Jack meeting Tabram after the soldiers.
Also another thing that didnt quite fit, you said that the soldier was waiting for friend and that he had been first.....But Tabram was not interfered with? How long would a quick knee trembler or B job take. (Sorry if this sounds a little crass, but when needs must).
Anyway I guess what I'm saying Glenn is if the soldier is still your prime suspect can you sketch out this reason in more detail.
Just feel this is important in the context of this discussion.
Another fab sunny day in East London...you should all come and try it...doesnt happen often.
Jeff |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3535
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 7:30 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
I take your point about money dispute -- I assume that would have lead to quite a noisy argument. It was only one of several options, though, but yes, your objection there is actually correct. So I think we can rule that particular one out -- at least if a money dispute would necessarily contain an argument.
"If this was a Soldier who blow a fuse what is the chance that he did it without shouting?"
I don't understand this point at all. Surely soldiers are experts in killing efficiently and silently, even under emotional stress. Incidents were soldiers have gone bezerk are certainly not uncommon. Considering the difficulties several people have pointed out here regarding the site (noises etc.), I would certainly consider a professional soldier in this case rather than an amateur.
"Surely most attackers make noise when inflicting blows...you only have to watch mordern tennis to get that."
Yes, I suspect you refer to female tennis...
No, I do not rely on Pearly Poll (her testimony and her behaviour at the line-ups contains too many odd features that makes her unreliable, although much of it of course could e explained by that she was scared for her own safety).
But I think, although her timing is strange, it is interesting that she also, besides the PC, mentions a couple of soldiers.
The witness statement that interests me is the one made by PC226H Thomas Barrett, who around 2 AM the same night -- while patrolling George Yard -- spoke to a "private of the Guards", who said that he stood there waiting for "his mate who had gone away with a girl".
Tabram's body wasn't discovered until 3.30 AM and it had not been lying there 1.50 AM.
Which means she pretty much could have been killed around 2 AM or at least between 2.00 and 3.30. I'd say those are a bit too much coincidences for my taste.
True again, there were no signs of sexual contact, so it is possible my theory regarding she having sex with any of them doesn't work -- although it could have been a knee-trembler, of course. Or else she was simply killed for unknown reasons BEFORE the sexual act was performed, of course we are not in the position to know why.
But of course one can make up a million scenarios that would fit ones expectations here -- but I guess none of them could be backed up by evidence, regardless if they contain the Ripper or a soldier. It would simply be guesswork.
All the best
P.S. Jeff, it's cloudy here today -- no summer sun. rather warm, though.
(Message edited by Glenna on June 10, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3536
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 7:36 am: |
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Jenni,
"if kelly folded the clothes herself, then does that mean you don't necessarily think she was killed by a client?"
Well, I can't see why a client in the room would mean that she didn't fold her clothes herself -- as far as I know clients rarely do it for them.
But, yes, I actually suspect that her killer might not have been a client at all, although it will always remain a possibility.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 188
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 7:48 am: |
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Glenn sorry to push the point but where exactly in Georges yard was the soldier, at the door that went dirrectly up to the place that Tabrams body was found?
Also how do we know Tabram was not there at 1.50am. There must have been another statement.
Also how acurrately can we pin piont time of death...looks like we have a one and half hour window. Surely plenty of time for Jack to meet Martha. Also what time does Pearly Poll say that she seperated from Martha and surely one of the soldiers went with her?
Just popping up stairs to do some rostrum work back in a mo. Jeff |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 636
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:03 am: |
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Glenn - I think someone has been pulling your leg, and it's not me!!!
Phil |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3537
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:13 am: |
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Jeff,
The soldier was found lurking around the north end of George Yard, Wentworth Street.
Elizabeth Mahoney and her husband returned to her home about 1:40 or 1:50 AM in George Yard buildings. She saw no one or anything unusual when she ascended the stairs.
There also exists a statement that says she and her husband came home around 2 AM. But since they didn't see any soldiers in the vicinity this has to be questioned. As far as timings are concerned, I prefer to rely on the PC.
Dr. Killeen pinpoints her death at approximately 2:30, but pinpointing time of death detailed enough was not possible in the 19th century so we must allow a certain margin of error either direction.
Still, as I said -- too many coincidences for my taste.
Pearly Poll (who was quite unwilling to co-operate with the police and who probably lied about both timing and her inablity to recognize the soldiers in the line-ups) said that she last saw Tabram with a Private around 11:45.
Several facts indicate that she didn't want to participate in the investigation and it is fair to assume that she might have been scared for her own safety, since she was that reluctant and didn't want to attend. So she is not a reliable source, and the police didn't think she was.
But it is interesting that she also mentions a soldier.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on June 10, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3538
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:14 am: |
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Phil,
Email me and elaborate.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 8:45 am: |
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Does Elizebeth mahoney sleep close to the murder location? She was evidently awake shortly before the attack and yet doesnt report hearing anything.
Of course I'm assuming she was coming in rather than going out....doesnt that stike you as interesting. Seems to confirm our killer was very silent.
How many other entrances were onto georges yard? and were all the landings similar. Is it possible that these were a well known place for prostitutes to take clients and if this is a common knocking ground is it not possible the soldiers story was true but he was awaiting his friend on another landing.
Is it not possible georges yard was a regular prostitute haunt and thus the soldier was nothing out of the ordinary....do we have any records of police patrolman and how common such things were?
Just a thought
Jeff |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3539
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 9:03 am: |
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Jeff,
I am sorry, but aren't you grasping at straws here and makes things unnecessary complicated?
I have no idea exactly where Mrs Elisabeth Mahoney slept in the building.
But it is said that she and her husband had "passed the spot" where the body was found and they had seen nothing unusual in the building, so apparently they passed it on their way up. The Mahoney's had been out for five minutes to buy dinner from a chandler's shop.
So clearly they were going up after had been outside.
Don't you have the Ultimate Companion and the A to Z, mate? It's all there.
"How many other entrances were onto georges yard? and were all the landings similar. Is it possible that these were a well known place for prostitutes to take clients"
The landings in buildings in the area was apparently known to be used by beggars, prostitutes and drunkards as sleeping shelters.
Which could be one explanation to why people didn't take notice or woke up to any sounds that might have occurred.
"Is it possible that these were a well known place for prostitutes to take clients and if this is a common knocking ground is it not possible the soldiers story was true but he was awaiting his friend on another landing."
Anything's possible, but at some time you have to consider all facts looked at together and the circumstancial evidence. One could probably come up with a theory that Donald Duck had entered the building through a basement window, but it is certainly not supported by any facts in the case.
My interpretation is, that too many circumstancial evidence and facts points towards one or two soldiers being involved because that is simply what the available facts suggests.
Besides that, anything's possible.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
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yes I do have an A to Z but not at hand so I'm working from memory. But this killing has always interested me and have a good over all.
But i find it signifcant that people were about and awake shortly before the murder. Surely they would have been asked if they'd heard anything yet they appear not to.
You place alot of significance on the policemans statement from the soldier yet this is a known haunt for prostitutes and there is no edidence that Tabram is even in the building at 2.00 am.
The soldiers statement could well be true but the only thing conecting him to Tabram is pearls statement that she left with a soldier.
I really dont see what else we can do but consider the facts and extrapilate what they could mean. At the end of the day the Soldiers Statement doesnt really seem to tell us much.
Pearl Poll says Martha left with a soldier. You could make an asumption that the two soldiers had made an arrangement to meet up at a given time but I think it unlikely they would have known Georges yard as a meeting piont.
If this was the same soldier that killed her, why hang around at all?
And isnt the two soldier theory based on the fact that it was stated two knives were used and an assumption that this meant two people rather than one man with two knives.
As you seem to be stating that the soldier is your main reason for excluding Tabram I think considering the facts about him and his statement very imortant and not micky mouse at all.
You say the facts piont towards the soldier but the only fact apart from Pearli Polls statement, which you dismiss, appears to be the statement of a soldier, standing in the north of the yard that he is waiting for his mate. You've already said that soldier travel in pairs.
It just doesnt seem like damning evidence.
And sorry if you think I'm having a laugh which I am not...just trying to get the facts straight in me head. I dont think Martha was killed by two soldiers.
Jeff |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3541
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 10:05 am: |
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I am sorry, Jeff, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Pearly Poll mentions a soldier (although her timing can be questioned), a PC finds a soldier hanging around close to the crime scene at a reasonable fitting time when the murder might have been committed etc.
I'd say that is too much coincidences for me to dismiss. And those are the only facts we have that actually points to a suspect. I prefer to give weight to that, especially combined with the slim possibility of the Ripper changing his MO and signature within a three week period on several important points.
It is not evidence, but what is most likely or not.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 253
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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Regarding this soldier,
From victims page, Tabram:
"Some time around 11:45 PM Martha and Pearly Poll went separate ways. Martha with the Private into George Yard and Pearly Poll and the Corporal into Angel Alley. Both, obviously, for the purpose of having sex.
1:50 AM: Elizabeth Mahoney returned to her home in the George Yard buildings. At the time that she ascended the stairs to her flat she saw no one or anything unusual in the building.
2:00 AM: Police Constable Barrett saw a young Grenadier Guardsman in Wentworth Street, the north end of George Yard. Barrett questioned his reason for being there and was told by the Guardsman that he was waiting for a "chum who went off with a girl."
3:30 AM: George Crow returned to his lodging in the George Yard building and noticed what he thought was a homeless person sleeping on the first floor landing. As this was not an uncommon occurrence he continued on to bed."
From the timeline we have the soldier at 2 AM, waiting for a chum who went off with a girl. We know Whitechapel had many many prostitutes, and there is no real evidence that the "chum" was with Tabram... it could have been any prostitute.
Also, as Tabram is said to have gone with a soldier at 11:45, it is conceivable that this soldier is the "chum" in question, although 2 + hours is a long time for them to be off together in my opinion.
In any case, Tabram's body is seen by Crow at 3:30 AM. This is a large window of time, 1 and a half hours, in which Tabram could easily have got rid of her soldier client and met up with another, i.e. the Ripper.
RH |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3543
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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Yes, there is a time window to consider up til 3:30, but that does not mean that she was killed 3:30,
she could just as well have been murdered at 2:00 or slightly after -- especially since Killeen estimates her time of death around 2:30.
Pearly Poll did say that she last saw Tabram at 11:45 with a soldier, but a lot of points in her testimony can be questioned, since she obviously was very reluctant to get involved. It can not be proven but it is very suggestive, that she lied about the timing as well as lying about not recognizing the two soldiers in the line-up (which is what the police also believed). So her information is not reliable. Still, she does mention a soldier.
"From the timeline we have the soldier at 2 AM, waiting for a chum who went off with a girl. We know Whitechapel had many many prostitutes, and there is no real evidence that the "chum" was with Tabram... it could have been any prostitute."
Well, as I said, combined with other elements, I'd say there are quite a lot coincidences here. But that's just me.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on June 10, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 254
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
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To my understanding the time of death was estimated to be about 3 hours before the examination at 5:30, so you are right. But still, I don't see how this could be very accurate. It could have been anywhere between 2 and 3 AM in my guess. I mean how accurate is this time of death estimating anyways? Even if it was 2:30 this is still a significant window of time, in which anything might have happened. There is just not enough to connect this guy to the Tabram murder in my opinion. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3545
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:35 am: |
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"To my understanding the time of death was estimated to be about 3 hours before the examination at 5:30, so you are right. But still, I don't see how this could be very accurate. It could have been anywhere between 2 and 3 AM in my guess. I mean how accurate is this time of death estimating anyways?"
That is true indeed, which I also pointed out in a post above. But as you say, that could just as well mean 2 AM as 3 AM -- any of them could be correct.
I have to disagree with your last sentence, though, considering the options.
I'd say there are too many coincidences here that cant be dismissed. And actually more factual stuff to go on, than a theory of a supposed second killer (which we have no evidence of at all and that no one have seen).
But as I said, my personal interpretations.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:59 am: |
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Surely the most likely sinario is that the soldier was indeed the soldier that went with Tabram.
She had finished her buisness with him and gone off in search of business.
The soldier was waiting for the corpral to finish with Pearly Poll.
His story fits.
Tabram returns half an hour to an hour later with new client.
Jack kills her. Time frames seem to match.
Only floor is that Tabram must have finished off soldier other than 'interferance'.
Remember constable Barrett see's a guardsman not a corpral.
Jeff |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3546
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
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Well, Jeff, that is your interpretation, since you seem convinced of that Jack necessarily should be included. I am not, and we have no indication whatsoever of a second killer.
To me the grenadier found by PC Barrett is more interesting considering the timing and the location, and although I can't prove it it is not impossible that it was the same soldier that Pearly Poll refered to; she doesn't seem all that reliable and gives the impression of wanting to sabotage the whole investigation.So I think we should be a bit cautious of drawing too much conlusions of timing and other details from Pearly Poll's descriptions, considering her behaviour.
Hey, Jeff, do you really live in East End? If so, pretty cool. I remember it as quite a busy area.
Have you tried the Guinness in the White Hart pub (nice and very clean toilets, by the way -- and a good selection of food)?
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on June 10, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 192
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
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We have no indication whatsoever of a second killer.
But surely when you have a serial killer on the lose like JTR you have to consider the possibility. Right time right place to fit Jacks pattern.
I just find this more likely given Inaki's detailed post that Tabram was strangled and mutilated by the Ripper.
Think about it..if this was the same soldier and he'd just attacked Tabram he'd be covered in blood...I think Constable Barrett would notice. If she wasnt dead where was Tabram?
Not with the corporal....there must have been someone else.
Jeff
PS Actually I live in Walthamstow Village. Think it was the old victorian gas lamps that attracked me. The house was built in the 1880's we've restored the original metal fire places and any othre original features back to period. I work in Docklands however...My hair dressers down Brick lane so if I'm down there tomorrow I'm going back to Georges Yard area...see if I can get any sense of it.
Time for home soon. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3548
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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Jeff,
"But surely when you have a serial killer on the lose like JTR you have to consider the possibility."
I am not so sure there actually existed a serial killer at that time.
"I just find this more likely given Inaki's detailed post that Tabram was strangled and mutilated by the Ripper."
However, according to Killeen, the stabs was not inflicted post mortem, in other words -- in contrast to the Ripper victims -- she was not dead when she was stabbed. That is according to Killeen, and he seems very firm on this point, as well as that two weapons were used.
Although I can't rule out Inaki's interpretation, of course.
"Think about it..if this was the same soldier and he'd just attacked Tabram he'd be covered in blood...I think Constable Barrett would notice. If she wasnt dead where was Tabram?"
Well, that pretty much opens up to the idea that he might have telling the truth about his mate and that it was not him, but his mate that killed her?
I have actually never thought that the grenadier that stood outside was the killer, but actually his mate.
I haven't heard of Walthamstow Village, but it sounds great. I like old Victorian gas lamps too.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 193
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
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Walthamstow is the edge of Eastend. If you go through Hackney down Mare Street you go Bethnal Green Whitechappel.
I'm still a little confussed by your thinking.
Either the soldiers mention by Pearli Poll are the same soldiers or we have two completely seperate soldiers form the two they met earlier.
If the Corpral was with pearli Poll was the soldier out side Georges yard the soldier who went off with Tabram....a completely seperate soldier?
In my count we seem to have at least one extra soldier?
Anyway must fly traffic gets heavy on a friday out of docklands....I can read posts at home but not post.
Jeff |
Inaki Kamiruaga
Sergeant
Username: Inaki
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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Hi Glenn!
Yes, the ball is rolling. Let’s see if we can score some goals…
Why representatives for the authorities did react to that extent on the Emma Smith and Tabram murders I can't explain, because clearly they were wrong and did subject themselves to exaggerations, if we carefully study the facts of crime history… Fact remains, looking at the horrific nature of the previous killings, the Ripper murders were not unique.
I think we might be “going astray” if we keep focusing on trying to explain why a thing happens instead of the thing itself. And I think this can be applied to Martha’s (and the others, too) murder/s. Of course, it wasn’t the worst murder in history. Nor were the others. But what’s the point in that (apart from the historical interest)? This is not a “who's got it bigger contest”. Does that lessen the fact that Martha’s murder was “one of the most dreadful murders anyone could imagine”… (Sugden, 1998, p.20,28) and that it was a turning point in the perception of Whitechapel’s people? “Such was the alarming effect on the population that a few days later about 70 local men formed the first Vigilance Committee caused by the Whitechapel Murders…” (Sugden, 1998, p. 19).
Besides, --and this aspect of the case is often glossed over-- one of the reasons the Martha’s murder hit the tabloids was that it was perceived like a “killing that had taken place just for the pure joy of killing…” (From Hell, p.21). As it’s stated in The Complete JTR, 1988, p. 3-4: “Until Jack the Ripper, nearly all crime had been ‘economic’ in origin (…) The first criminal case that bears superficial resemblance to the Ripper case is that of the Ratcliffe Highway murders of December 1811 (…) The extreme violence of these crimes produced a nationwide sensation very similar to that produced by Jack the Ripper. Again, in 1828, the activities of the body-snatchers Burke and Hare caused a similar sensation; they killed at least a dozen people, most of them prostitutes. The motive was purely economic (…) In Whitechapel, murders were so commonplace that the newspapers did not even bother to report the murder of Emma smith on Easter Monday, 1888…”.
Whitechapel’s people didn’t understand the “logic” behind her murder. Note that, not even Emma’s attack was perceived the same way. After all, there was some kind of logic behind it (robbery, sex, etc.) In these aspects Martha’s attack departed from the rest and although it wasn’t the worst crime in the East End’s history it “inaugurated” a new type of crime: the murder for the joy of murder in series of continuing episodic nature, i.e. a new type of urban serial killer had been born (although JTR wasn’t the first SK in history). That’s a Fact that will remain constant along the rest of the Ripper’s series. And this Fact cannot be substituted or lessen by saying that there were worse murders in the East End. That’s one of the reasons for why the local authorities were so alarmed. They didn’t see it as the other crimes. And it was after Tabram that they started to link it to previous murders.
The Fact is that the type of Martha’s murder can fit into the same frame of the Ripper’s murders, i.e. working prostitute, strangling, ferocious attack and overkilling, no apparent motive for it (apparently, no economic or sexual murder), sexual organs and throat targeted, 3 weeks before the first canonical, and a long etc. In this frame the rest of the murders wouldn’t fit, however gruesome they may have been.
Why shouldn't this be possible for a soldier? After all, soldiers are involved in butchery as I see it, and we know some get affected by it in a negative way. I think especially a soldier could do it without questioning. Not ANY soldier, but surely you might have found psychotics also in the army in 1888, especially under influence of drink… prostitutes are subjected to all kinds of loonies all the time, and it is next to minework and wood cutting among the most dangerous in the world. And most certainly was in 1888. You never know what to expect from a customer. I really don't see your point here. Why can't a client disputing over money turn into a raving maniac if he has that disposition?
Let’s see if I can drive my point home… My point is not whether a soldier or other type of client could have commited the murder or not. Of course, a soldier, a miner, or whoever you choose may turn into a murder. But my point is that the aspects the "soldier or the client who blew a fuse theory" entail don’t fit the facts we see in Martha’s case.
Let’s see… You’ve already mentioned some of them: you might have found psychotics also in the army in 1888, especially under influence of drink… Why can't a client disputing over money turn into a raving maniac… Or the sex deal that went wrong…
The “loony, angry client (soldier or not) theory” only fits with some of the elements of Martha’s case (or the others) but fails as a whole. It doesn’t account for why if it was a dispute over money, sex, etc., Martha wasn’t beaten, raped, shouted, etc. As Jeff puts it: “Surely a dispute about money would start verbally and escalate. Surely most attackers make noise when inflicting blows...” Anyone can kill anyone, but the fact is that Martha’s killer did it in a Ripper-like way.
Try to look it this way:
On the one hand we have a supposed angry client that blows a fuse… but on the other we have a killer who controls himself to the point that nobody hears a single noise.
On the one hand we have a supposed client who may be disputing over money, sex, etc., and on the other we have a killer who doesn’t shout or insult the victim, doesn’t beat her, but strangles her and later takes his time to butcher her.
On the one hand we have a supposed client who over-reacts instintively (as it should’ve been if everything happened as a result of a spur of the moment reaction, provoked by something the prostitute did or said), and on the other we have a killer who acts cold-blooded, takes his time to change the blade, finds time to position the body, turn up the clothes, search her pockets, etc., and make his way out unnoticed and quietly.
If I only tackled the problem isolating the elements, I could end up seeing trees instead of a forest. The individual elements are: prostitute killed, knife used, etc... what’s all the fuss about it? That happens…
But, if I takle the problem as a whole set of elements (including the psychological ones), I’ll see that Martha’s murder has the elements of a maniacal killer, somebody very much in the style of JTR, the killer who struck only 3 weeks later!
So, when it’s objected: Why can't a client disputing over money turn into a raving maniac if he has that disposition? I’d reply: Exactly! And why can’t that client be JTR? Once again, we know nothing about our man and what triggered his killing spree. That’s why that type of objection goes to Facts-Substitute #3.
Anyway, my point is that Martha’s case meet enough reasonable facts as to be labeled as a Ripper’s murder. IMHO, it has more elements than Stride’s murder (although I believe her to be a JTR’s victim, too). So, if we don’t mind to include Stride in the list (although she may be disputed) we shouldn’t be afraid of including Tabram in list, too (although some people may dispute her, as well). I think it’s only fair to restore the status she once enjoyed.
PS- However, according to Killeen, the stabs was not inflicted post mortem, in other words -- in contrast to the Ripper victims -- she was not dead when she was stabbed. That is according to Killeen, and he seems very firm on this point, as well as that two weapons were used.
But, even if my interpretation is not correct, this wouldn’t rule her out. Because, it could be argued that the fact that the Ripper caused all the wounds once the victim was dead could have been as a result of his “Malpractice” with Tabram. Take a closer look at her attack.
First the killer strangled her, stabbed her throat and other parts of body a total of 38 times… For all purposes, in his eyes she would be dead… But, what if she made some kind of move showing that she was still alive? That’s why her killer may have looked for a better weapon, changed blades and run it through her chest. In fact, that could explain why the next time he’ll go from stabbing to slashing the throat open. Next time, he doesn’t want to “get the surprise” that his victim is still alive when she wasn’t supposed to… Remember: “Malpractice makes perfect”
(Message edited by inaki on June 10, 2005)
"Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out" - Feynman
"You cannot rationally argue out what wasn't rationally argued in." - George Bernard Shaw
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 715
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Hi Glenn,
Why do you keep saying "We have no indication whatsoever of a second killer."? That doesn't make sense. You haven't proved anyone as the first killer, so there's no "second" involved anywhere.
And, heck, a direct interpretation of what you are saying is that we have no indication of a killer other than Jack the Ripper, who is the only first killer we have. I know that's not what you mean, but that's a more natural reading of your words.
We don't know who all Tabram saw that night or what time she was killed. Heck, if the medical doctor is off on his times (and he may very well be, even these days it's hard to find the time of death precisely, back then it'd be more of a crapshoot) Martha may not have even been killed until after 3:30 am sometime. The witness at that time, Crow, said he thought someone was sleeping... and maybe she was and the killer saw her there later and killed her then. Certainly for as narrow as that stairway was and the pool of blood Tabram was reported found in, Crow was lucky to not have stepped in blood and trailed it around if Tabram were indeed dead at that time.
Trying to write this off as the work of the soldier she was said to be last seen with more than five hours before her body was found and three hours before the doctor's estimated time of death requires making a number of assumptions about what happened that night that we just do not have the evidence for.
(Message edited by dannorder on June 10, 2005)
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2181
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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I’m all for having Tabram as a victim of Jack, suits me just fine, but I do ponder the salient fact - as Phil mentioned - that no whores were killed in Whitechapel in 1888, apart from the whores attributed to Jack.
Even when you find a whore killed in 1888 and think ‘ah, this is one they have not seen yet’, she becomes a possible victim of Jack.
Like the Smith chick.
I still want someone | | | |
