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Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1896
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | 
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Some time ago I remember reading that as well as the clay pipe,some ginger beer bottles were found in Mary"s room.
Now if this is right it puzzles me.Mary was broke most of the time largely because she was utterly dependent on drink.Admittedly the bottles could have been bought by Joe but I very much doubt Mary would have wasted her money on Ginger beer when she could have had some of the hard stuff.
Yesterday,in connection with another thread, I was reading about the use Ginger beer bottles had for those making explosives with dynamite.
Those making these Molotov cocktales all,apparently used the ginger beer bottles for
these bombs.
A couple of related ideas came to mind-did John McCarthy have Fenian sympathies and if this is so could Mary have been involved with other Irish sympathisers to the Home Rule cause .
Who knows for sure that the "husband" who died in an "explosion" four years before wasnt the very same Flemming[brother of Joe Flemming maybe?] who blew himself up accidently on Tower Bridge in 1884?
Was this role as a "sympathiser" of the Fenians the reason why John McCarthy allowed the 29 shillings rent arreas?
I often wonder why noone could trace her family or if they did why none of them showed at her funeral?
Who too the mystery man who is rumoured to have waited till everyone left and then spat on her grave?
If she had had anything to do with bungled "sympathy work" she would have made some big enemies.
I know this is all very,very unlikely but I wondered whether anyone had ever picked up on the specific uses of ginger beer bottles!
Natalie
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 608
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
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All I can say is it merits looking into. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1898
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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That"s what I think Diana.I am aware it may sound a bit farcical but in fact the book tells us there were guide books recommending the collection of Ginger beer bottles for just this purpose!
I just wondered why Mary had a collection[or several of them anyway]in her tiny room.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2056
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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I'm not sure Natalie, but something tells me that ginger beer was alcoholic in them days.
If so, I would love to get a quart down my neck right now.
A few years ago I remember a large section of Southampton city being cleared because some pensioner's home brewed ginger beer had gone into melt-down in his garage, so you are right... dangerous stuff.
If you find any, send me some.
I'll have a look into ginger beer in them days. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1899
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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That would be helpful AP.Also I wonder if a search could be made on John Fleming[or Flemming]who was killed with several other Irishmen in an explosion, when a bomb planted at the base of Tower Bridge went wrong.This was apparently in December 1884.
When will Robert be back ,any idea? |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 373
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 8:54 pm: |
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Pictures of ginger beer bottles [with alcohol...circa 1888 ] .......We have ginger beer over here in the States that doesn't have alcohol.
Which is probably why only my kid drinks it around la casa
Hope this helps. |
Jane Coram
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 418
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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Hi Nats,
VERY interesting idea..........and probably worth having a look into.
The only mundane reason I could think of for having them there is that there may have been a deposit on the bottles and if she had taken them back, then she may have got the deposit back on them. I know dead boring, but a possibility.
It was common practice in those days, and right into the 20th C to collect bottles and take them back when you were strapped for cash.
Sorry, really dreary explanation, but a possibility.
Lots of Love
Jane
xxxxx |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 3:19 am: |
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Hi,
One of Marys nicknames was 'Ginger' this may not have been reference to her hair colouring but her liking for Ginger Beer....
Richard. |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 475
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 8:39 am: |
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I find this fascinating. I am not normally prone to speculation on the Ripper, I find the conclusions to unsoundly based. But in this case...
If there IS (and that's a big IF) any larger dimension to the Ripper case, then the Fenians might be it.
Nick Warren's article in the Mammoth book makes some interesting connections. If McCarthy and Kelly were somehow involved it might explain many things - the mysteries associated with her past; the absence of family at her funeral; her apparent fear in the weeks before her death etc.
I am even drawn to your explanation of the nickname "Ginger", Richard. But maybe that's pushing things a little too far!! Nice idea though.
A Fenian connection offers potential links to Matthews proposal that Monro might offer "a hint"; possibly to Tumblety; to all those insinuations that there was something strange going on in the background.
I still feel that the Ripper is most likely to have been a crazed local working alone, but IF there is a wider perspective, then this might be part of it.
Phil |
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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This is the kind of bottle that is most likely to have been found in Mary Kelly's room Howerd.
The reason it was there, was probably because there was a deposit on the bottle, usually a halfpenny 
The bottle pictured is circa 1880-1900.
And the ginger beer in it was manufactured in the Kings Cross area of London
Regards Cludgy |
Julie Hawkes
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 9:14 am: |
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Hi,
Have a look at the Museum of London's online ceramic and glass website and search for ginger beer bottles. The early ones seem to be smaller than those posted by Howard and may be more like the ones Mary had in her room.
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/
Julie
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2057
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Natalie
This is an interesting little thread.
I’ve had a hell of a day so haven’t had much time to look around but nonetheless the results are of interest.
First of all, I would say that Mary Jane Kelly probably sold ginger beer from her hovel in Dorset Street, especially if she was known as ‘Ginger’.
It was quite common for working whores to sideline their income by selling ginger beer from home after the pubs had shut.
I found a very provoking report from June 3rd 1870 where just such a whore is raped and beaten in her hovel by a group of men who are refused their ginger beer at one in the morning, and then smash the window of the house to gain access and cause said mayhem.
This incident sounds awfully familiar.
Following on from that I also found a ginger beer fuelled fight between two whores late at night - they were sharing the same hovel, reluctantly - and the one girl lost an eye in the incident.
This also sounds familiar.
Ginger beer was actually called ‘Pop’ in the LVP, and folks who are interested in the Fenian connection to the case will be pleased to hear that ginger beer was actually kept in large copper cylinders, under pressure, which were then wheeled about Whitechapel for dispensation to the masses at the various outlets.
In 1866 crude bombs were actually made by filling ginger beer bottles with gunpowder which were then hurled through the windows of houses and clubs by the roughs of Whitechapel, most usually in cases of extortion, and very often by the Irish roughs.
A case from 1864 really highlights the danger of ginger beer, for a ginger beer maker of that year was actually suffocated to death when he somehow managed to stuff the soda water bottle into his throat during the manufacturing process.
I’m enjoying this thread. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2467
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Hi AP and Nats!!!
Am enjoying this too and have found all sorts of 'receipts' for
the making!of this 'creature!'
Love this pic Ive found of an 1888 Ginger bottle looks a bit as I imagine Mary too!
Also...loved the Fenian connection AP! Gosh! always thought Ginger beer was a dangerous thing! LOVED the idea of it being wheeled around in all it's horror....... around the streets of Whitechapel!!......Gosh! GREAT image! feel a drawing coming on!!! hehe 
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1900
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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Thanks Howard and Cludgy for these pictures of ginger beer bottles,and Julie for the thread on them.Brilliant clear pictures too.
Its a good point Jane about the deposits-very possible.
Interesting, Richard, that Mary Jane was known as Ginger!
The book I have by Clive Bloom documents some of the activities some of these Fenian women played in the 1880"s.They smuggled the Phoenix Park murder knives from where they had been purchased by John Wiess and son 287 Oxford Street London, in pillow like containers ,under their dresses,----pretending to be pregnant---.Don Rumbelow is reputed to have one of these knives which he says is called a Jack the Ripper Knife.
In 1867 another women,Ann Justice and two men wheeled a barrow load of explosives into the walls of a prison to free their compatriots.
The explosion ripped open the prison wall and demolished a row of houses.All were part of a secret "cell" of Irish fighters.Ann Justice attempted to hang herself in her prison cell.
Only one was found guilty .He was executed.
Another interesting piece of information was that the Irish Nationalist movement of that time had very strong links with France-it having had a series of revolutions and armed risings and therefore able to pass on useful information to
the "dynamitards".
Interesting too that John McCarthy was born in France[with a name like that sounds a bit suspicious]----and Mary Kelly had links with France that noone is able to clarify!She apparently used the name McCarthy as another name
this business of Irish fighters/sympathisers etcetc is full of people giving false names so Kelly wasnt unusual in that regard.
Thanks Phil for your information---are you able to find out any more on the John Fleming who was blown up in the East End in 1884?
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2058
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Natalie
just a quick one.
Are you sure the Tower Bridge incident was 1884 rather than 1894?
Just to save me some time. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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AP.Thanks for all that information!
And that throws yet another possibility open-that she may even have made enemies of those rough gangs because of her ginger beer!
But clearly there are all sorts of reasons why she may have kept these bottles .
What I am most curious about with regard to her
past history is why this young, alcoholic,Irish
woman ---and a Catholic who must have been christened ---is so damn difficult to trace!
As are Joe Fleming and the " Morganstone" fellow if that was their real names.
Also what she was in France for and with whom?
And did she make most of it up as she went along?
Rumour has it she was better educated than the others,could read and write and received letters from her family in Ireland[according to John McCarthy].Her family in Ireland? Hang on I thought they were all in Wales?
Natalie
Hi Suzi,thats a great picture-I know Northgate Street in Chester-I used to live near there! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2059
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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No worries Natalie
always glad to help, and I do like my ginger beer.
Going back to the Tower Bridge incident of 1884, I think you must have the wrong year, for the Prince of Wales was laying in the first piles for the construction of the Tower Bridge in 1886.
So I reckon it's a bit like the good ship 'Sylph'. Arrived before she left.
Your Flemming or Fleming is not easy to track, so could you give a little more detail on the incident? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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Hi AP
There was a new thread opened under Mary Kelly, headed, Joseph Fleming a Fenian Connection, which
Phil Hill opened a bit ago.
He states it was a bungled bombing by John Fleming in Dec 1884 /Tower Bridge
its taken from a footnote in a book called Fenian Fire.
Only thing is that Chris Scott did a thread on Joseph Fleming who may or may not be the Joe Flemming[if that was his real name]that Mary Kelly is said to have known.
Many Thanks for your help Ap
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 492
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 1:53 am: |
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Natalie - thanks for prompting my memory. I had completely forgotten that thread. It was a plea for more information after I read about the incident in the book. I'll check the reference asap.
Thanks again,
Phil |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2470
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 4:38 am: |
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Nats-
Spooky!!!re Northgate Street!
Surely though if Mary was a Ginger Beer 'baron' she'd have had more than the 'odd' bottle hanging about tho...
Suzi
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1903
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:12 am: |
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Hi Suzi,
Well I wasnt supposing that she was any kind of
"ginger beer baron"!
All I was thinking is that with her being from Ireland originally, and now living in the East End,
where all the political activity had moved to in the 1880"s its just about possible that her sypathies lay with the Irish Home rule cause.Maybe her family had been involved too.If any of this were so she may have been prepared to "help out" from time to time by collecting the odd ginger beer bottle for the bomb makers!
But what has begun to interest me about her is what she actually got up to before her move to the East End three years before.
Nobody is sure about anything about her then or now.Joe Barnett came up with a strange tale about her working in the West End,hinting at a life of vice.Then he said she had "visited " France.
But was she telling him the truth?
I wonder what she had got up to in the West End if she was ever there,who her clients had been etc. and why she ended up where she did when people hinted that she stuck out like a sore thumb
in terms of her "niceness"/education etc ---presumably when she wasnt drunk!
The song she was said to have been singing,re violets on mothers grave-was this an Irish song?
I really think we need to keep on trying to track down even more information[even than Chris Scott has given us] regarding her past men friends
Joe Flemming and Morganstone in particular.
If she had really been involved in any of Northern Ireland"s long and troubled history
she could have made some bitter enemies.From either side-the Orange Lodge people or the Republican"s---or their "supporters"
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 501
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:37 am: |
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Natalie - in 1888 it wasn't only the issue of Northern Ireland (Ulster) which was in debate.
Britain ruled the whole of Ireland, including what became the Irish Free State in 1922. In the 1880s Gladstone was seeking to give Ireland "Home Rule" (it's Parliament had been absorbed by Westminster in 1801).
This was an era of absentee landlords, less than fifty years after the great potato famine, and around the time of the original "boycott" (named after a landowner).
MJK could have had links to, or come from any part of Ireland. Home Rule was a huge and divisive issue. So your remark (although expressed in anachronistic terms) is broadly right - she could have made some bitter enemies.
And if Rumbelow's knife was the Rippers, and if it is indeed part of the batch acquired to murder the British Chief Secretary in Pheonix Park, Dublin a few years before 1888, then Mary Jane might well have fallen victim to a Fenian who felt betrayed; or had just run mad.
Fenian strands rest all over Scotland Yard and London in the 1880s. There were explosions (one in Scotland Yard itself) and Anderson was up to his neck in conspiracies and secret work connected with the Irish question. Monro too was involved. Macnaghten later claimed that the Ripper was associated with the attempt to kill Arthur Balfour, a leading conservative politician of the day.
So the Fenian nexus is strong - it would be interesting if Mary was at its heart.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1904
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
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Phil,
Thanks for the reminder!
Northern Ireland though,had always been far more privileged by the British Government in terms of its economic ties with England-allowing for better schools,better housing,better paid jobs etc----and better trading.
But you are right,Mary Kelly could have come at it from any direction---family history/poverty due to the potato famine etc.etc.
Certainly it would be good to know a bit about these previous "boyfriends"of hers.And particularly the "husband" she told Barnett was killed in an "explosion".
Once again I am puzzled by the claim by Barnett that she moved with her family to Wales when young.The areas of Wales mentioned are also Welsh speaking I believe ,making it curious as to how her father got a job there let alone became a foreman there!
But then McCarthy told the inquest that she recieved letters from her relatives in Ireland
and that he had seen these letters[believed to have been from her mother].
So were her family in Ireland or what?
And why did not one of her family neither mother or father or any of the six brothers Barnett thought she had---or her sister--- show at her funeral?
Natalie
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 502
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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On the other hand, Natalie, didn't barnett think she had a brother ("Johnto"?) in the Guards?
Hardly obvious employment for a member of a fenian-sympathising family. But could he have been a lover she passed as her brother and was pumping for information? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1905
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Phil, well her brother may have just needed steady employment dont you think?
Also its beginning to look as though the two branches to Mary Kelly"s family may have split up-her mother"s side living in Ireland and fathers side in Wales is a possibility.
I doubt she would have told Joe Barnett she had any Fenian connections if she had.They were operating secretly and she may only have been part of a wider group of sympathisers rather than leading cadre.
Joe seems to me to have been a bit of a sucker with Mary Jane.He seems to have been "useful"while able to tide her over while she needed to stay in the East End.But as soon as he couldnt provide he was booted out or made to share their tiny room with all sorts.
Who was the mystery woman invited by Mary to stay a week and a half before her murder and whose presence so angered Joe?Was she really an "unfortunate" as Joe said[without him even knowing her name]
Who knows who Mary had started to invite back to Millers Court once the coast was clear?
We dont even know for sure who "Joe Barnett" was,even though his height and name are confirmed in the fish porter"s licence.But he could have been one of two or maybe more Joe Barnetts who lived in London at that time.Mary Kelly is a complete mystery-still.
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 506
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Isn't speculation wonderful!! We have created a whole edifice, sparkling and seemingly solid - and not a shred of real evidence to support any of it. Just conjecture piled on surmise; maybe added to if; supposition allied to fantasy; and all coated with wish-fulfillment - research the Russo way!!
I'm not knocking the Fenian links, but one has to be realistic!!
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Well Phil you could just as easily say this of the police who on nov 9 1888 discovered Mary"s remains and declared that they were the work of the ripper!
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2476
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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Gosh!
Theres a lot of too and fro-ing going on here!
The initial emergence of a 'Ms Kelly 'in Limerick is still to me a mystery......the journey ...(if that happened)... to Wales and the employment of Father as a foreman in a tin (more likely as the working of Tin is a very poular shall we say and well documented industry in the area) works is still spurious isn't it...
...then the marriage to Mr Davis/Davies..........who disappeared in a pit horror .......again many sadly did......all a bit 'convinient ' isn't it....
As to the Fenian link....I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the Fenians, its an intriguing thought ,BUT may just link into all the other intriguing things about the knowledge or lack of it with our mysterious Mary,but I DOUBT she had any link with them to be realistic!
As to the visit to France.... Gosh theres even more possibilities here,...could have been absolutly nothing, just a trip over the Channel with a punter of some kind or God knows what else.....Probably though of no importance though just something she told to Joe as a way of making herself feel well travelled shall we say ,and that coupled with the 'Marie- Jeanette 'soubriquet gave her some sort of "je ne sais qois" (SP!) I'd imagine in Dorset St and its' environs! .
There is always the 'thing' that 'wrangles' with me about the fact that she was recieving letters (allegedly) from brother J and 'family' in Ireland and was allegedly well(!) educated enough to read them.....but still asked Joe to 'read to her' re the murders........hmmmmmmmmmmmm ..........pretending to be something or someone she wasn't maybe.........
Have confused myself here now but some thoughts here eh?
Suzi
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1401
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Hi suzi,
I Agree Kelly was reported to be a educated young woman, that stood up for women of unfortunate means, she spoke fluent welsh, was a artist, and certainly was not incapable of reading a english newspaper.
I would bet that she had to sit in that sordid room whilst Barnett read all the gory details of the murders to her, hense frightening the poor girl to death, hense the reported nightmare that she was being killed....
Richard. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Hi Richard
Good to hear from you!
Exactly she has a 'myth' of being educated well certainly in respect to the other poor dabs....as to the 'Welsh' dont know........
Odd tho that the report is that she asked Joe (allegedly) to read to her........
She must have been a frightened girl but Why so much and to what extent and WHY sadly we'll never know (for sure!)
Cheers
Suzi
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1909
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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Suzi,
sometimes having someone between you and the printed word can be reassuring!A solitary reading of the ripper"s acts could easily terrify someone living only a stones throw away from the crime scenes-whereas from dependable Joe it was maybe more bearable.
The thing about the Fenians is that they were known to have cells in the 1880"s in the East End.
A good proportion of the population were Irish and poor and were probably very sympathetic indeed
to the movement.Especially those Catholic Irish.
Also I am not particularly suggesting she was killed by the Fenians.I would like to know exactly what she did do in the West End and France if indeed she was ever in either place.
Mary herself could, as Phil suggests above,have been sleeping with certain characters such as "Johnto" of Scotts Guards fame, pumping him for information which she "passed on" etc. ---and she could have been discovered or suspected and had to flee to East End obscurity.
After all this is only taking what little we know of her through Joe and a few aquaintances and putting together a story that departs from the conventional one of her being a young widow of a Welsh man who died in an explosion.
I really do not believe this as I think if it was true we would have been able to trace this Davies or Davis by now and her marriage too.
And if she had all these brothers and a sister why did none of them ever turn up to her funeral or later claim to have been her sibling?All the other victims relatives were traced -even Elizabeth Stride"s relatives recently.
Natalie
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 507
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 5:52 am: |
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Natalie, I agree entirely with you when you write: "After all this is only taking what little we know of her through Joe and a few aquaintances and putting together a story that departs from the conventional one of her being a young widow of a Welsh man who died in an explosion."
But we do have to keep clearly separate what we have evidence for and what is simply extrapolation that, however logical, is just that. It may give us insights, open possibilities, or make links which were not previously apparent. But we need to be careful, IMHO, not to take this "hypothesising" too far or even begin to suspect it might be true - without evidential support.
The fact is that all the points you raise:
difficulty in tracing the Davies or Davis family;
her marriage;
why none of her family attended MJK's funeral;
all have other, and perhaps simpler, explanations. The family lived too far away; she had embroidered her past to make Barnett more protective; or herself more romantic; she had fallen out with her family (fallen women were often cut off in those days).
I am enjoying this speculation, and i have strong suspicions that a fenian connection might be important, but I just wanted to inject a note of caution.
Regards,
Phil |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1741
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 6:19 am: |
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Hi All,
The problem as I see it is that victims (or at least suspected victims) of serial killers, are generally picked at random, and only because they satisfy the immediate whim of their assailant.
It's fun speculating about a victim's past, and I'm not trying to undermine the importance of putting the few factual bits and pieces together that can tell us more about the women who lost the little they had to Jack.
But the depressing fact is that we won't find any clues leading to his identity or motivation, in the lives lived by his victims up to the point when they met the point of his knife, if they were simply in the wrong place during the wrong ten minutes.
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on May 11, 2005) |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 510
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
|
Caz - I think the reason that MJK attracts this specific attention, is that there has always been a suspicion (never, I think, absolutely rejected) that her death might be particularly significant in that the murders appear to have stopped after her death. I know that others may have been later victims but they are not generally accepted as such. Thus MJK is often perceived as the "last".
One explanation is that the murderer was incarerated, or died (Kosminski/Druitt), but another is that Kelly was always the intended victim and that when she was dead the reason for the killings ceased to exist (Gull/royal conspiracy/Dr Stanley etc).
Thus who Kelly was, her associations and relations, and her past become of interest and MIGHT offer the key to a solution.
Phil |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2481
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Caz-
Hi! Great point..that is the unutterably depressing and frustrating part of it all eh.....
Phil- Hope you're right!
Suzi
x
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
|
Luke Whitley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 7:16 am: |
|
Hi Caz.
Well said. For a refreshing change on these boards, simply put, and uncomplicated. The past history of these victims has no bearing on their fate as the unfortunate victims of a random killer.
As you said, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. No amount of research into Kelly's early life is going to turn up the identity of Jack the Ripper. It's an interesting side-show, but no more.
Keep being simple and realistic Caz.
Best regards.
LUKE WHITLEY |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1913
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
|
Hi All,
I can see why you think about the killer[s] like that Caz and its a good point.And it may be correct.
But so far nobody knows for sure who the Killer[s] was/were!
We now know roughly who Martha Tabram was,Polly Nichols,Annie Chapman,Elizabeth Stride
and Kate Eddowes-and other women such as Alice Mckenzie and Frances Coles,who they were,who they married [or how they earned their livings previously] -we know a surprising lot about them
including some of their fantasy lives to some extent-I"m thinking of Elizabeth Stride and her Princess Alice story.
What do we know about the young woman found in Millers Court with her face and body slashed
about so badly with a knife that she was unrecognisable and looked a quarter of her original size?
Well we know she lived in Millers Court.
Her landlord told us she used to receive letters from her "relatives" in Ireland
but
her ex Joe said her relatives were in Wales!
What if Joe was rather gullible and hadnt really thought much about or investigated her past in any serious way?
Are we to simply go on accepting his word for it?
Or are you saying it doesnt much matter who she was because it won"t help us find out who Jack was anyway?
But hey Caz---it just might!
even the name on her death certificate,"Marie Jaenette" might lead us somewhere....
Phil,
Did you find out anything more about John Fleming?
Could you dig out the exact reference to the London Bridge explosion -the date and if possible the spelling of his name and those of his compatriots?
Thanks
Natalie
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Judith A. Stock
Sergeant
Username: Needler
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
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Dear Nat and all,
On this one, I have to stand directly in Caz's queue. Gacy, Dahmer, Bundy, et.al. "shopped" for their victims, as did, I believe, Saucy Jack. Trying to determine whatever pointed each to a certain one, as opposed to another, is like trying to figure out why a shark bites one swimmer and ignores another. There may be striking similarities, unbelievable coincidences, bizarre synchronicities, and downright inexplicable oddities in the lives and deaths of the victims, but I must agree with Caz that these poor women were simply, and sadly, in the wrong place at the wrong time. Until we can find that elusive Polaroid shot of the Ripper standing over Kelly's bed, knife in hand, I fear we are doomed to guess, speculate, and ruminate 'til our brains go into meltdown. Fer a' that, it's still just guessing.........and can be nothing more. Not that guessing isn't a lark, but it's still only guessing......sort of like what the weatherman does every day.
Cheers to all.....to be perfectly honest, I have never once speculated about the possibility of Mary's being a moonshiner on the side.........food for thought, indeed...........
Judy
http://www.casebook.org/2006 |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 521
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 1:41 am: |
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But the weatherman no longer guesses, and weather forecasting (at least in the UK) seems to be becoming gradually more accurate and is highly scientifically based.
What amuses me about the certainty that the victims were chosen at random, is the way the proponents of that view simply reject any other possibility. Thank heaven none of you work for the police, or we'd have even more innocent people behind bars or executed!!
I gave the reason why we cannot reject the idea that at least MJK may have been known to her murderer - the series appeared to stop with her death.
Now I and you may not agree with that, BUT THAT THEORY HAS NOT YET BEEN CONCLUSIVELY REBUTTED OR REJECTED so it cannot be ruled out. It is a valid and useful avenue of research IMHO.
I exactly the same way we cannot yet be certain which victims Jack killed. Is Tabram in? Stride and Kelly have been questioned as being his work. Now if research into MJK's backlground showed she had been killed by someone else, or even that there was good evidence that she had, would that not change the case?
Blinkers off please.
Phil |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 2:14 am: |
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Phil,
I am really not following you around the boards, in case you are paranoid. Ha!
But I agree with your statement that we are not sure which victims were killed, we are not sure of any connection between them. In fact, we are actually sure of very little. We need to consider all aspects of the case, and as I have stated elsewhere it might be a very simple thing that we have overlooked. Some kind of connection.
Yes, in the back of my mind I feel there is a connection somewhere, much more so than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think it is a long shot, but the ginger bottles may provide a clue. I tend to agree with Jane that Mary was probably going to return them for the deposit.
But, when you have as little to work with as we do,we do need to look at everything.
Cheers,
Carolyn  |
Scott Suttar
Inspector
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 194
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 3:43 am: |
|
Hi all,
Sorry, but I have to disagree.
Dismissing the life and times of MJK because it is unlikely to shed any light on who her killer was is a strange thing to do. To do this we must assume that the killer was of the type suggested in several posts above. As Judy put it they "shopped for their victims". That is to say that they were chosen for reasons only known to the killer and to the rest of us they appear to have been chosen at random.
Is this not also an assumption? Do we not risk disregarding many other types of killers because we have pidgeonholed Jack as one particular type?
There are many more examples in the history of murder of killers choosing victims because of a personal connection than there are of killers who just randomly kill.
Until we know Jack's motive I for one think it is prejudicial to say definitively that Jack had no prior connection to the victims.
Scotty.
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 4:13 am: |
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Scotty,
Isn't that on the same lines that I mentioned above? To dismiss any possibility at this point I feel would not help us with this case. There is so very little to go on. So little that we actually know.
We need to watch out for the "trap" of making assumptions, as they can muddle this already very muddled case. I feel we also need to be careful of not bogging ourselves down with too many petty details, so that we might miss something simple. Where do we draw the line?
I agree with your statement that we cannot say anything definitively about Jack...To do so would be foolish, given the information that we have. So, we all speculate (with different degrees of logic) and that is as good as it gets for now.
Just my humble opinion,
Carolyn  |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 675
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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Hi all,
Even serial killers who normally murdered completely random people have been known to kill someone they already knew. Didn't Christie start with the upstairs neighbor and then end with his wife, with a whole bunch of more typical random victims in between? (I believe so, but I'm tired and my memory is fuzzy.) The Canadian sex killing husband and wife team (blanking on the names -- Homolka I think was one) also offed the woman's sister. It's all about opportunity.
There's every reason to believe that all of the Ripper victims were chosen randomly, but then it's also possible one or more of them may have known their killer(s) in some way. As a numbers game I think they probably were all completely by chance, but, as always, the odds only tell you what was most likely not what really happened.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Scott Suttar
Inspector
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 195
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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Hi All,
Dan completely agree, and to add another, didn't Fred and Rosemary West do in some relatives? A Daughter/Stepdaughter I think was one.
Carolyn, you and I are in complete agreement as far as I can see. I was questioning some of the views expressed by others earlier in this thread.
Anyway, back to the original topic of this thread. I have nothing further to add on the ginger beer bottles, but I find the possibilities mentioned above on what has generally been an overlooked item found in Kelly's room quite fascinating. As has been stated it is all speculation but I think it does demonstrate that such seemingly insignificant pieces of evidence could hold such important clues.
Scotty.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1921
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
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Hi Scott,
My thinking too-the ginger beer bottle connection re dynamite vessels seems to have been "overlooked"---- which is not to say that more likely the ginger beer bottles were there as "empties" which Mary or Joe could have returned for their deposits.But it may be worth having a look at from a different angle
Natalie |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2494
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Nats!
Youre never 'overlooked!'
I remember (sadly!) bottles being kept to take back for 'rewards' hehe God ........age!!!
OK I think Nats had a good thread here which has been sidetracked a bit but at the end of the day its got us all going a bit....and....... there are of course other things in that room that are worth a look too!
Suzi
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1929
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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Hi Suzi,
now Suzi I didnt say I had been overlooked!
Its quite a different matter to say that there was a "possibility" of the ginger beer bottles being collected for the Fenian Dynamitards!
I actually think its very unlikely but it remains a possibility until more is known about who Mary actually was.
Cheers
Natalie |
Jane Coram
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 427
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 7:51 pm: |
|
Hi Nats,
The thing is that it I really think that it is quite possible that a flash of inspiration such as that could actually lead to the case being solved.
That is how a lot of cases are eventually solved isn't it? Someone gets a sudden idea which has been overlooked before and it leads to a breakthrough.
It is certainly worth looking into. No-one can say how viable it is until they have done some research on it. And even if it does prove not to be correct, some other useful information may be unearthed because of it.
All research is useful if only to narrow down the possibilities. So I for one think it was a great idea and would love to see if anyone can come up with something on it.
Lots of Love
Jane
xxxxx
By the way Suzi, round our way it was called 'taking the empties back'. It paid for many a dinner!  |
Paul Boggs
Police Constable
Username: Pboggs
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 7:44 am: |
|
Although IMO some of the postings on this thread have long since passed the border into the land of fancy – if not fantasy – I can’t resist the temptation to add some more fuel to the fire. Unless I have overlooked something, no one seems to have made any reference to the Ripper’s (as we know, he uses that “trade name” himself here) com-ments in the “Dear Boss” letter to the Central News Office on Sept. 25/27: “I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with…..” Now I’m curious to see what ideas this reference will inspire. |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 8:31 am: |
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Paul,
Since the letter was written on Sept.25/27 and M.J.K. was killed on November 9, I would assume he already had the bottles in question...
UNLESS he needed them for the deposit! 
Cheers,
Carolyn
P.S. Welcome to the boards!!!  |
