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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 314
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 3:30 pm: |       |
Hi all,
I know I’m a little late, the last discussion has already ended, but I had (still have) internet problems. Anyway, here a the two cents I have been wanting to contribute for a while, but never seem to have come ‘round to.
There are perhaps as many as 20 similarities between the murder of Martha Tabram and those of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. However, like most of you have rightly said, not all of them are significant.
These are the similarities I think are significant.
· Absence of an obvious motive.
· Silence: if it were an escalated ‘argument’ with an intoxicated customer I would have expected some noise, like a term of abuse being yelled, a cry for help or a scuffle. But no one heard a thing. Like in the other cases the attack on Martha Tabram seems to have been so unexpected and efficient that she wasn’t able to cry out or put up a struggle.
· Timing of the knife work: the killer most probably did most, if not all of his knife work after his victim lay on her back, senseless.
· Location: as I don’t think that Whitechapel and Spitalfields were London’s only poor and rough neighbourhoods inhabited by prostitutes (Bethnal Green, Mile End and Stepney for instance were too, I believe), it stands out that Tabram was not simply killed in the area where the Ripper did all of his killings, she was killed in the very heart of it.
· Timing: Tabram was killed only 3 weeks before the first certain Ripper victim, Nichols.
· MO: Jack the Ripper laid his victims on their backs, pulled up their skirts and spread their legs more or less, enabling him to mutilate the abdomen in the easiest way and so these actions could be considered part of his MO. Martha was found lying on her back with her legs open and her skirts thrown up, exposing the lower part of the body. Although she wasn’t mutilated, Martha had suffered at least 13 stab wounds and one cut to the lower part of her body. Perhaps, like Monty suggested, the killer was disturbed before he could do anything more.
· Throat wounds: although I don’t know if it can really be called a similarity, something that strikes me as important is the fact that, albeit not slit, the throat was attacked. In fact, Martha was stabbed 9 times in her throat. That is little under 25% of the total of 39 stab wounds in a relatively small part of the body. Although the other stabs do, to me the stabs to the throat don’t seem like random stabbing, it rather seems like Martha’s killer was purposely stabbing her there.
If Martha Tabram wasn’t killed by the Ripper, then it must have been another troubled mind, most probably not a local, as I would otherwise have expected more and similar knife attacks to have taken place in the same area.
All the best,
Frank
|
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 968
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 3:52 pm: | |
Hi dg cornelius!
regarding the surgical skills of JtR my objections to him having little or no surgical skills are
-the speed of his "work" in a dark corner of Mitre square in particular[probably 10-15 mins].
-the fact that he was able to do intricate marks on her eyelids as well as quickly extract her kidney which in humans lies underneath tissue which can make it difficult to locate by someone totally unpractised in human anatomy/sugery/post-mortems.presumably he felt for this as he wouldnt have had a"clear view" without spotlight or daylight to make such a clean sweep of it as he did as well with some of the other victims.Animals have a different body shape.If they were the same to operate on surgically then why does a vet nowadays require 7 years training and a human surgeon the same but in qute different training institutions? A butcher may have rapid cutting and segmenting skills for animals[in daylight]but that doesnt mean he can rapidly translate such cutting up to humans in such different conditions whereas a surgeon or person with a thorough knowledge of human anatomy
might manage the type of mutilation found on Catherine Eddowes in my [humble]opinion!
With regards to my photo I took it very quickly without thought to composition and so there are those stray wires everywhere.OK and I will maybe replace it over the holidays when I have more time if its so scary!
but thanks anyway for sugaring the pill with your kind compliment!
Cheers Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 969
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 3:59 pm: | |
Hi Frank,point by point I do agree with you.Really clearly explained-thanks!
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1900
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 5:21 am: | |
Hi Frank,
Just some comments to your post:
· Absence of an obvious motive.
True. However, this is not singular. I would think the Ripper wasn't the only one capable of performing murders without a motive.
· Silence:
OK. This is probably the best argument on your list. I can agree to a certain point here.
· Timing of the knife work:
True again.
Still, once again, to strangle someone prior to stabbing or cutting a person is very common in sexual murder crimes. Once again, I don't believe the Ripper to be the only one in Whitechapel being capable of doing these things.
· Location:
Means nothing. I am actually surprised more things like these didn't happen in this area. A district marked by poverty and unemployment would most certainly be a logical environment for these kinds of deeds.
· Timing:
To me this could be nothing but pure coincidence. As I see it, it is actually possible that the media coverage surrounding the Tabram murder could have influenced and triggered the Ripper to do his work.
· MO:
I don't agree. This is probably the best argument against it being a Ripper work.
The victim lying on her back with the lower part of her clothes dissarranged, is probably the most common feature in all murder cases with sexual implications. And not just in serial killing. So that means nothing.
Apart from this point, there is absolutely nothing in the MO that would suggest that the Ripper was responsible for it. Stabbing is not the same as ripping someone up. I totally disagree on that the stabbing seems deliberately made and not frenzied and uncontrolled; apart from the fact that the stabbing was concentrated to the lower torso, they do seem frenzied and lacing of a clear MO to me.
· Throat wounds:
Again not at all consistent with the Ripper's approach. fact remains that there WAS NO throat cut. Stab wounds in the throat area is not the same. The fact that there are stab wounds on so many parts of the body is quite consistent with a frenzied and uncontrolled attack. The Ripper was quite consistent in all of his canonical work as far as the throat cutting is concerned.
Let me retort with other points to ponder.
1. The important part of the Riper's conduct lay in the signature (mutilations and taking of the organs). In Martha Tabram's case there is no signature, apart from the dissarranged clothes (which doesen't necessarily HAVE to be a deliberate signature, but rather a result of a sexual assault).
2. We already know of several other rather singular killings of prostitutes in the same district/area and during the same time period, that probably not was the Ripper's work.
So on grounds of the timing and location, there is absolutely no reason to assume that the Ripper should be responsible for all sexual related murder crimes in probably the one of the most poverty-stricken and violent areas of London at the time.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 102
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:14 am: | |
Natalie:
I don't hold that JtR was a vet. On the other hand, as I pointed out, he could have been a ships's surgeon, an army hosptial steward or even a mortician.
DG, the record is closer to 30 second to amputate a major limb and even this did not require the skills normally accepted as required. During Our (U.S.) Civil War,the idea was to get them off the table as quickly as possible and let the army hospitals worry about the rest of it. I actually knw people who give lectures on combat surgery during the Civil War and asked them this question when I was starting to research the novel How much skill would be needed to find a kidney or uterus by Jack the ripper. and the consensus was if the perpetrator was not worried about the "patient" surviving,a basic anatomy course such as a nurse or hospital orderly in a combat field hospital might have recieved would suffice.Usually this information ws recieved on the job as it were. While I use a doctor as my suspect, I lean towards a ship's surgeon or Army medical steward as the actual suspect although Dr. Francis Tumblety might well be a prime candidate as I believe he never actually attended medical school. Also during the Civil War, Anesthesia was used. Normally it was chloroform but to a lesser degree ether was used and in extreme circumstances brandy. By the Civil War, ether was frowned upon as it tended to make patients nauseous and some actually suffocated while having the drug administered. Kindest regards, Neil PS- keep in mind these are mostly opinions. |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 972
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | |
Thanks a lot for this information Neil.I would not be at all surprised about any of the medical ideas you ponder on-the Docks were close to Whitechapel,so is the Tower where soldiers were billeted as well as their medical stewards presumably and most telling of all in my opinion the Royal London Hospital can be seen quite clearly just a 100 or so yards away from the site of Polly Nichols murder.
Thanks for the info Natalie
Glenn,also very salient points thanks. |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 8:48 pm: | |
I think most definatley the Ripper had to start somewhere, but where?, maybe he didn't start with Martha Tabram (although it would be possible), he could have started on dissecting animals (as other serial killers have...Peter Kurten springs to mind), or could the Ripper have started on dead bodies? Tabran had left with a soldier, a private, it had been stated, Dick Austin was a private (not at wellington Barracks though, but at the Cavalry Barracks) maybe these two soldiers were Richard Austin & James Oliver, could be reason for Mr Oliver to believe that Mr Austin was the Ripper. Or did Mr Oliver just have some personal reason to accuse Austin of being Jack the Ripper? It was said that Martha's wounds had also cut through to the chestbone, the doctor who had examined her body had said that she was around 36yrs old, other statements say that she was about 39-40yrs, i found in the census of Whitechapel Union Workhouse 1881 a Martha Tabran aged 30 a flower hawker born in Surrey, she had 2 son's Frederick Tabran aged 8yrs born Surrey & Charles Tabran aged 7yrs Born Surrey. Is this the same Martha Tabran? Also the census said she was married but her husband wasn't with her, it was down on a statement that her husband Henry Samuel Tabran had been separated from her for the past 13 years, due to the fact that she had been involved with a carpenter by the name of William Turner. I've yet to do some research on Austin & Oliver and will let you know of the research when i have it. |
Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 4:31 am: | |
I think Frank has summed up nicely exactly what I would have liked to say. That the similarities in the killing are more significant than the differences.
It is difficult to think that anyone who would stab a woman 39 times was little more than an unhappy client. Think about it, or even stab your hand forward 39 times, it’s actually quite an effort, not something you would do lightly, not even in a vicious murderous temper. To inflict that many wounds deliberately takes a certain type of killer. The type of killer who enjoys it. The type of killer who would do it again. However, if Martha’s killer wasn’t Jack, then he appears not to have struck again. This is even stranger when you couple it with the attack in Whites Row upon Annie Millwood, which in my opinion was almost certainly by the same assailant who later attacked Martha.
I have always found the location of the attack upon Polly Nichols problematic. If we are to believe that Polly was the Rippers first fully murderous attack, then it seems to have fallen a long way to the east of his comfort zone. Often (and I don’t want to get too far in to the realms of profiling) killers of this type will commit their first attack practically upon their own doorstep, in an area where they feel entirely comfortable. Therefore, if this were the case you would expect that further murders would gravitate out from Bucks Row with some possible even further east. But they don’t, in fact the epicentre shifts west to Commercial Street. If you include Whites Row and George Yard in the pattern of attacks, suddenly there is a much clearer and believable pattern. I know this argument is a bit like putting the horse before the cart, but if you look at a map with these attacks included it just seems to make more sense.
I also find it hard to believe that an area as small as this could be unlucky enough to have two of the worlds first recognised psychosexual killers stalking its streets.
|
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 103
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 3:17 pm: | |
Matt;
The problem is that they weren't recognized as such. If a customer killed Tabram she may have been his first and indeed only killing the killer's rage could have been fuelled by alcohol or even opiates which were widely avalable and legal. Keep in mind we are talking about a densely populated area and if one or both of our killers is a sailor, he could be in and out often enough to divert suspicion.
The Milwood killing may be the key if Tabram's killer is not Jack the ripper. AFter considerable thought on Tabram's killer, I would look for a Royal Marine. He would have the access to the same or similar weaponry that a soldier would have, would be confused by most people with a soldier and would not have been found by police canvassing an army barracks. (See my comments above concerning ship's surgeons and crews and their rudimentary medical expertise) Kindest regards, Neil |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 976
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 4:02 pm: | |
Hi Shelley,Did Oliver SAY he was with Austin and Martha and Pearly Poll?I"d be glad to know where it states that he points an accusing finger at Dick Austin.....most interesting this.Look forward to hearing more of your research.
Best Wishes Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 977
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
Hi Matt and Neil,I think that the 39 stab wounds point to someone who was a maniacal killer.Maybe this killing led to blood lust.I"m sure such a killer would have sruck again.
However if Martha"s killer wasnt JtR then Whitechapel certainly was unusually endowed
After all George Chapman was preparing his way to serial kill his wives and girl friends by poisoning and his barbers shop was reputed to be in Georges Yard[-a couple of years later admitedly]
Natalie |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 104
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:37 pm: | |
Query in addenda to my last post. Were the Royal Marines billeted ashore in the whitechapel area or did the ship's marine detachment stay aboard as they do on American naval vessels and would it be possible to account for any missing marines on the night of Tabram's murder. it could eliminate her as a victim or at least give us a better understanding of the evening's "festivities". Neil |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 6:16 pm: | |
Hi Natalie, thanks for your post...i'll be sure to check any police records concerning Austin & Oliver as well as military and anything else i can get hold of. I don't know anything about these 2 soldiers, only what was posted on the forum...But they both look interesting characters and i can hardly wait to get to the bottom of it, so to speak. Also i'd like to brush up on doctor's records and see if i can find how deep a cut on the breastbone/chestbone Tabran had, as i'm pretty sure that the spine is possible to cut through a little easier (depending on the position/angle), due to soft cartilage in between, i'm not a doctor so i'll have to see where a little research will take me on this train of thought. As for Tabran, pearly poll,Austin & Oliver it was just a flash of thought,don't know anything for sure as of yet, anyway you've been helpful.Cheers ,Shelley. |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 6:12 pm: | |
Hi Natalie, thanks for your post...i'll be sure to check any police records concerning Austin & Oliver as well as military and anything else i can get hold of. I don't know anything about these 2 soldiers, only what was posted on the forum...But they both look interesting characters and i can hardly wait to get to the bottom of it, so to speak. Also i'd like to brush up on doctor's records and see if i can find how deep a cut on the breastbone/chestbone Tabran had, as i'm pretty sure that the spine is possible to cut through a little easier (depending on the position/angle), due to soft cartilage in between, i'm not a doctor so i'll have to see where a little research will take me on this train of thought. As for Tabran, pearly poll,Austin & Oliver it was just a flash of thought,don't know anything for sure as of yet, anyway you've been helpful.Cheers ,Shelley. |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 9:44 pm: | |
Just another thought again...what if Martha Tabran had a weapon on her person, and she threatend the soldier with it , in an attempt to rob him? and this could be why 2 different weapons were used on her,the soldier attacking her with her own weapon as well as his own...Any thoughts from anyone on this theory? |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 9:02 pm: | |
I'd still like to continue with my research...However, just thinking about Tabran, in the doctor's report he said that 2 different weapons were used to inflict the wounds, 1 weapon he thought was a dagger. A serial killer will always use the same weapon (not 2 different ones), also Tabran's throat wasn't cut, the killer had not attempted to cut the throat. Even though the attack was extremely vicious, it doesn't appear to be a meditated murder of a serial killer, but one that was done in the heat of the moment. Just a bit of info : some women that have been in a bad relationship (ie victim of a wife beater), or indeed the abuse that prostitutes do sometimes undergo, the prostitute/victim of domestic abuse can actually turn out to be violent herself, i wonder if Martha Tabran did anything to upset the soldier,then the soldier snapped and launched a vicious attack. Soldiers are quick to kill,but i'll wager the killing of Martha Tabran took more time, than say Catherine Eddowes,not forgetting she was cut open from the private parts area right through to above the breast area and also her kidney had been removed. |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 105
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 8:10 pm: | |
Shelly;
If you'll ponder for a second. You state that soldiers are quick to kill. I dispute that. Soldiers are trained to kill. There is a huge difference. I am currently researching a theory that Tabrams last known customer might have been a Marine. More on that as I delve deeper.
As I have stated, I believe only one weapon was used and that the wound to the sternum was the last one. The difference in the wounds is easily accounted for if the killer had to work the knife back and forth, wiggle it as it were, to retrieve it from the wound. Let's face it, stabbing through bone is much more difficult than soft tissue and I believe the wound pattern would reflect that. Even today tracing a knife wound unless the knife is damaged or recovered isn't always a guarentee. Without a weapon back then it would be impossible to say and a doctor could reasonably assume two weapons were used when in fact only one was.
The only thing I could think that Tabram could do to enrage her customer was to refuse him sex. If the soldier or the killer (I'm still not entirely convinced it was a military person) only wanted sex all he had to do was knock her about and take his money back. She wasn't about to queer a sell by aggrivating the customer in my opinion. She need the money to rent a bed in a doss house.
If Tabram is not a victim of "Saucy Jack" than I submit that there were indeed two Psychotic killers loose in Whitechapel. I have not investigated this line but I am delving into Tabram a little closer than I had originally intended.
Keep in mind that the estimated time of death was between 0200 and 0415 hours (2:00-415am) and that the soldier was seen with Tabram at 2345 (11:45pm) That is a time gap of 3hours fifteen minutes at a minimum. If the time of death is reasonable then why did he take three hours? In a semi open place like George Yard I don't think he would. I surmise that Martha was looking for another customer and met with her killer and that the soldiers are interesting characters but not our killer or killers.
One last note. I would also surmise that a sex deal gone wrong would have been far noisier that Tabram's murder was. She ran afoul of a psycho who actually knew how to use a knife. Kindest regards, Neil |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 992
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 8:10 am: | |
Hi Shelley,
.the murder seems to have been committed in total silence-so an "arguement of the type you suggest is unlikely.
.the 39 stab wounds would have taken a lot of strength/perseverence compared with a "normal" murder.The horrific injuries shocked the police force of the time and was the reason why they considered her to be a ripper victim.
Yes Whitechapel may have had more than a fair share of killings though statistics show this NOT to be the case compared with other working class/poor districts of London at the time.It was much the same.Therefore if the Tabram murder took people aback this way IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN AN ABNORMAL MURDER for the time.
The murder also fell in the very centre of his killing ground. Keep posting Shelley!
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 993
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 8:19 am: | |
Hi Neil,
interesting line of research-hope it turns up something strong!
Don"t forget that PC Barrett said that at 2am he had seen a Grenadier guardsman loitering in Wentworth Street near the junction with George Yard.He had spoken to the man,who explained he was "waiting for a mate who had gone with a girl".
Despite being able to provide a very good description of the man and having an identity parade of thes Guards Barrett was never able to identify anyone accurately from the "line up".
Best Natalie |
Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 8:37 am: | |
Hi Shelley & Neil.
On this particular issue of a soldier being responsible. We had an opinion some years ago, it must be still on the CD Casebook, unless it was before the big virus attack we suffered, that no experienced soldier would ever plunge his bayonet or dagger into breastbone.
Soldiers are taught well enough to attack the fleshy parts of a victim, either the neck or the abdomen but never the upper chest, for the specific reason that any weapon could become snagged in the bones and should that happen it becomes very difficult to remove.
A military person would know better.
Just something to consider.
Regards, Jon |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1922
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 9:38 am: | |
Hi all,
I agree on that if it was a pure matter of a sex deal gone wrong, we would probably have seen a lot more disturbance and signs of a loud quarrel, although I wouldn't claim that it's absolutely necessary.
Regardless if it was a "dissatisfied" customer or not, the perpetrator in question must at least have had a psychotic moment, because of the nature of the killing.
However, the point is, that just because the murderer was psychotic in some way -- which I find reasonable and maybe even evident -- doesen't mean that he was Jack the Ripper. A dissatisfied customer doesen't rule out the man from being a psychotic.
Neil wrote:
"If Tabram is not a victim of "Saucy Jack" than I submit that there were indeed two Psychotic killers loose in Whitechapel."
Well yeah... there actually was -- at least!
As I've stated before, we have a number of extraordinary cases in Whitechapel in 1888 and 1889 (the headless torso in Whitehall; the Pichin Street murder; the murder on Emma Smith, the mutilated body of Elisabeth Jackson in 1889 etc.) and some of them can surely not be attributed to the Ripper.
If the man who was responsible for the Whitehall killing also lay behind the Pinchin Street murder, that would suggest we may have another embryo to a serial killer there as well.
And then we have other unsure cases, like Emma Smith, Frances Coles and Annie Millwood.
Judging from the evidence, I would not find it impossible that the man who committed the murder on Annie Millwood also killed Tabram. If that wasn't the Ripper, then that makes three psychotic killers.
After all, East End had a vast population and the living conditions were in many ways harsh, which by itself is a flourishing environment for crimes and murder -- and insanity.
What surprises me is NOT the possibility of several psychotic killers in the area, but rather the notion that there could NOT have been.
I find it very hard to believe that someone like the Ripper would completely change his MO and suddenly "invent" a consistent signature in a short period of less than a month, from Tabram's murder (with stabbing and no signature) to the murder on Nichols (with troat-cutting and then mutilation as a signature -- and a signature from then on that would be rather consistent).
I don't buy it.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:36 pm: | |
Hi Neil, Thanks for your post, you have some points, but not only are soldiers trained to kill they are also quick to kill, point being also that a soldier had to reload a gun in a certain amount of time in training or he'd be dead. This also corolates to other weapons ie a knife, bayonet. The other thing i'd like to mention is 'The Ripper' was a psycopathic killer,and not psycotic there is a very large difference between the two. Someone who is diagnoised psycotic is severely mentally ill, they are not methodical in their killing they are diagnoised as insane.The ripper is a psycopath, this is someone who is immature, selfish and devoid of humanity to a certain extent than most people and are classified as sane and aware of what they are doing. The timings that you mention, my questions would be where did Martha go after this soldier, did she meet up with pearly poll again, did she speak to another friend or aquaintence? Or did she go for another drink with this friend or soldier? Why return to George Yard buildings after a time lapse, of where she had left pearly poll to go off with this soldier? I personally don't think that this soldier was the ripper, infact i am thinking that all his victims had seen the killer 2 or more times before they met with their deaths, i'm thinking that the ripper was a groomer. Oh one last thing, i'd estimate that a prostitute would only take a maximum of around 20 minutes with a customer, so say, for arguements sake, it was just after midnight that she had finished with the soldier, what happened in the time lapse of at least 1 hr and 55 minutes? |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 995
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Hi Glenn/Shelley Neil /All!
yes I agree Glenn there could have been several serial killers at it in Whitechapel concurrently.We know there were two-the ripper who killes Polly,Annie and Catherine for sure and maybe several others and George Chapman-who poisoned several wives.
Regarding Jon Smythe"s point-Hi Jon-I dont see that the way a normal soldier is trained to kill has of necessity got to be the same as a soldier who is crazed enough to stab a defenceless woman 39 times.Surely he was off his head when he did this?that would never be the work of a trained soldier in good mental health-it has to be the work of someone deranged.
Shelley,a good point you make about the methodical killer but this doesnt actually make him a psychopath.Hitler was believed to have suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and as you know was a very well organised mass murderer.The cold-blooded killer such as Hitler-a crusader for various "causes[amongst which was the extermination of the Jewish race]is in my view a very likely candidate for Jack the Ripper.[More likely than a psychopath who would be a candidate for paid killings or mercenary work of a nasty type.
By the way as I point out in a post above a soldier was seen loitering around George Yard area at 2am by a PC Barrett-he was never seen again or found in any "identity parade".This soldier the PC spoke to and has described was thought at the time to have been a strong candidate for her murder.
Best Natalie |
Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 3:08 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
I agree with what you wrote:
"..Surely he was off his head when he did this?that would never be the work of a trained soldier in good mental health-it has to be the work of someone deranged."
Make no mistake, I accept the idea that a soldier is responsible for the Tabram murder, simply for lack of anything else to go on. It seems to be a case of occums razor to me (no pun intended).
Question for Glenn.
Do you recall, one of the Boston Strangler's victims was stabbed in similar fashion to what was done to Martha?.
I mention it because it was quite out of keeping with the 'signature' of the strangler.
What I wanted to ask you is if you have ever read that any killer can resort to frenzied stabbing, that it is more an expression of sudden anger as opposed to premeditated murder.
Therefore, it is not a signature at all.
Regardless of whether you are a 'slicer' like JtR, or an assassin like 'Son of Sam', or even a poisoner or strangler. If you have a knife on you and you are faced with sudden aggravation to the extent of rash violence, is it not true that most people would randomly stab at their victim?.
The attack on Tabram appears to me to be the work of spontaneous aggression, so maybe a random frenzied stabbing is more an expression of a state of mind at that moment in time, not a signature at all, purely an MO, because anyone might react in this typical way given the right circumstances.
If this observation is valid then Tabram cannot be ruled out on the signature argument.
Any thoughts?
Regards, Jon
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1932
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 3:23 pm: | |
Hi Jon,
The frenzied stabbing can NOT be considered as a signature -- as I've stated many times -- but a modus operandi, only aimed to kill or letting off steam.
Therefore, in Tabram's case, there is no signature (maybe apart from the position of the body, but if that was intentional in this particular case is doubtful and beyond our knowledge).
That is also my main problem with Tabram in the Ripper context. For the Ripper the importance lay in the signature (the mutilation etc), because the signature served no real purpose besides fulfilling his fantasies. The victim was already dead.
In Tabram's case there are no such indications, only stabbing that was meant to kill -- no other driving force that seemed to have triggered the killer into post-mortem actions.
The Ripper's MO was strangling (at least in some cases) and the cutting of the throat, but those consistent methods of his were only meant to kill the victim -- the importance lay in what he did AFTER the victim was killed.
We don't see this need at all in the Tabram case.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shelley Wiltshire
Police Constable
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
Hi Glenn, Jon & Natalie,
Very good points Glenn in your post, you've hit the nail on the head, Jon i don't disbelieve you about the way a soldier would kill, it sounds reasonable and realistic, but Natalie does have a point, what if the soldier had made a mistake in a frenzy? but let us assume that Tabran met someone else after the soldier, because of the lengthy time concerning the doctor's report, the killer would be someone other than 'Jack the Ripper'. Natalie to clear some confusion, a serial killer enjoys killing, this does make him a psycopath (this is taught throughout criminology, no debate, no question). So we can safetly say that Martha Tabran was not a ripper victim....As i thought all along anyway. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 6:18 pm: | |
Shelley,no one to date has a monopoly of certainty about the state of the rippers mind.
This guy could have been the psychopathic killer you insist he is but he could also have been a paranoid schizophrenic and to state that his methodical method of killing shows he doesnt belong to this category of psychosis is just not so.As I point out above Hitler was a type of serial killer-he consecutively and very methodically organised the killing of millions of Jewish people because he believed he could create a "pure Germany".He was a crusader for a cause. The ripper too could have killed because he was becoming psychotic.He could have believed he was under command from a power outside himself,that he could have "heard voices"instrucing him to do this[ie he was acting under the delusion of orders.
Nobody knows for sure.Thats why this site exists.
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1934
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 7:44 pm: | |
Shelley,
Thank you for your kind words.
As far as the Ripper's mental state, though, I believe Natalie has a valid point here.
FBI's profilers have (for what it's worth) "diagnosed" the Ripper as a disorganized killer, preferably a paranoid schizofrenic, and it's not impossible. In Sweden we've had a lot of remarkable murders performed by individuals who has "heard voices".
However, as Natalie says, we can't be sure of the Ripper's mind -- not any of us, and that is very much up to debate.
Not all serial killers are psychopaths, although it must be acknowledged that most of them are, and especially those who manages to remain uncaptured for a long period of years. (The Ripper's reign didn't probably last longer than a few months, so this is quite a matter of personal interpretations of the circumstances.)
Some serial killers -- like the Son of Sam -- are confused and disturbed individuals rather than smart psychopaths, so not all of them can be categorised as "Bundy" types.
However, we can't know this for sure; he sure was psychotic, but was he a psychopath? Well, maybe -- maybe not...
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shelley Wiltshire
Police Constable
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 6:29 am: | |
Yes i agree with that Glenn, not all serial killer's are purely psycopaths, they can also be psychotic, or with other mental illnesses such as schizophrenia (but people diagnoised with schizophrenic personalities are very rare in killing), but the fundamental basis of someone who will kill has a psycopathic personality, it is most definately been proven. I have come across some schizophrenic personalities, they have a tendency to harm themselves or even try suicide, suicide is not common amongst serial killers, but psycopaths will not commit suicide, as they are too interested in getting others to fulfil their needs and satisfaction. To debate on whether a serial killer using methods as not a psycopath is to take the whole of the proffession of criminology as a complete joke (and this is definately not so). It has been established by the police force itself that, Nichols,Chapman,Stride,Eddowes & Kelly all had their throat cut (method 1), that all had been mutilated (method2), these 2 methods is enough to establish a methodical killing. By the way Natalie, psycopath is a personality not a state of mind (illness), i speak with a proffessional analisis, Glenn i cannnot understand why an FBI computer would assume the ripper killer to be disorganised, the only thing being that in the case of Kelly, it was a frenzied attack (this occured because it happened indoors,all others such as Eddowes were killed outside), but as horrific as it was, method can still be traced ie, throat cut and( organ removed,disembowelment) mutilation. By the time the killer had got to Eddowes and Kelly he had gone into the killing further and established a 3rd method. Now that i have summed this up, i'll wager that the ripper now started on dead bodies rather than victims of Whitechapel, such as annie millwood or Tabran. So someone that has worked in forces, mortuaries or prison type morturies, or scientific research of the day. |
Shelley Wiltshire
Police Constable
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 7:28 am: | |
Just a bit of info glenn & Natalie:
I spent a night in the same flat as a schizophrenic personality called Mark, he was the one who called me for breakfast and made me a cup of tea. I was as safe as houses, won't remark too much on his appearance, but he had terrible scars on his wrists where he had been admitted to hospital so many times for trying to kill himself, he was tearful and constantly thought of suicide (you couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor bloke), but he wouldn't have hurt an ant, only himself.
cheers
shelley
Criminology Student ( MASC Ad Crim) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1937
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 8:26 am: | |
Hi Shelley,
OK, we've had these discussions here earlier but I'll do a quick re-run since it is rather interesting (although it may fall outside the subject of this thread).
Firstly, I think you are confusing schizofrenics with paranoid schizofrenics! Those two categories are completely different. What you describe is very correct for the ordinary schizofrenics. But the paranoids can get extremely violent and dangerous, because they feel threats all around them. Some of those are quite effective and methodical killers since they, for example, hear voices that tells them what to do. So, don't confuse these with schizofrenics in general, like your firend (I know a couple myself, and I agree, they are quite harmless to others than themselves, and that is also why the schizofrenic Kosminski, for example, feels rather unbelievable as the Ripper).
I can give you a whole lot of serial and methodical killers that are NOT psychopaths. I pointed one out for you earlier, namely the Son of Sam. In Sweden we've had several killers and serial killers that's been diagnosed as paranoid schizofrenics or other mental disorders -- that's been using the same modus operandi again and again. Psychotics, yes -- but were they psychopaths? No.
Mental cases like paranoid scizofrenics or similar can appear very orderly on occasion and doesen't necessarily raise suspicion and they are quite capable of carrying out rather complex murder schemes.
One such example that I like to pull up, is Hadden Clark (who believed he was Jesus Christ), who finally got caught after the murder on Laura Houghteling in 1992. He later confessed to a dozen murders, among those Michele Dorr.
Clark used such extraordinary methods as dressing up as his victims with clothes and a wig while transporting the bodies to dig them down.
As I said, we've had a number of such cases in Sweden, where rather sophisticated (but of course also impulse-based) murders has been done by paranoid schizofrenics. All in all, we have very few murder cases in Sweden done by psychopaths.
Psychopaths are the most common category when it comes to serial killing, but they are not the sole group. If they teach you that where you study, I would recommend you to change university. So you see, Shelley, one can't take such a thing for granted and say that all methodical killers or serial murderers are psychopaths. Because that is unfortunately false. Police officers know this, criminologists know this and the FBI and CID (in England) know this.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shelley Wiltshire
Police Constable
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 8:41 am: | |
Hi All,
Here's a bit of Educational info that criminology students study:
....Unlike authentic sufferers from mental illness,'Psychopaths' do not lose touch with reality and rarely suffer much anguish or distress. They are essentially selfish, shallow and immature - yet are sane and usually of normal intelligence. They have been described as ' social predators' who ruthlessly plow thier way through life.. Completely lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret (Hare,1994;p.xi). Giving these people a Quasi-Psychiatric status has fuelled false ideas about the mentally ill.
Refering to the fallacious perception of the failure of care in the community, Professor Julian Leff pointed out, "Part of the misperception of the situation is a confusion in the mind of the public between schizophrenia and personality disorder" (ie:between people who are seriously mentally ill and those who are just anti-social or immature) (Leff,2001;p381)
Also Everybody, If you take a look at the case of the 'Yorkshire Ripper', he claimed to have heard voices...only after 9 months into being caught so the Judge so said. A lot of serial killers try and fool the professions into thinking they may be seriously mentally ill, when infact they are not seriously mentally ill, this is because they want to escape being an ordinary prisoner on a life sentence, or indeed the death penalty. Most serial killers try this hoax of "hearing voices" and the rest!
Cheers
Shelley
Criminology Student
for MASC (Ad Crim) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1938
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 8:52 am: | |
Shelley,
Concerning the FBI profile, it is not a computer!
It is a complete unit (The Behavioural Science Unit), with specialized detectives and their basis for the deductions they make is some 20--30 years of interviews with a large number of serial killers. As far as England is concerned, this type of work is often carried out by psychology professors like David Canter, who specializes on the field.
Now, profiling is controversial and I myself has some doubts about its accuracy, mainly because profiling is built on generalizations of how a certain type of criminal mind operates in a certain situation and is only meant to deliver broad guide-lines of which type of person to rule out and which to consider. (Not to mention the fact that most of their conclusion are pure very much common sense, that also can be reached by a good detective.) And to apply this method on a 115 year old case is tough work.
John Douglas of the FBI carried out such an attempt to do a profile on Jack the Ripper in 1986 or 87 (and you can read more thoroughly about it in his book The Cases That Haunts Us). He and Roy Hazelwood (who specializes on sexual offenders) came to the conclusion that Jack the Ripper was a disorganized individual (since he, among other things, took a lot of unnecessary risks while performing the murders), a loner in his 20s or 30s, had an occupation (or prior occupation where knives and anathomy are involved, like a hospital, morgue, a butcher etc.), unmarried, ordinary or shabby appearance etc.
I don't have the book here with me at the moment, but you can come across Douglas and his FBI unit several times if you study this forum. It takes to much space to go over it all and it has been done several times here.
Whether or not one wants to believe the profilers is up to the individual. The FBI (and David Canter in England) didn't see an organized smart and cunning psychopath in Jack the Ripper (although Douglas meant there was a possibility for a mixed individual, with both organized and disorganized traits).
If they are right or wrong I cannot say, and the debate will probably go on and on about that forever.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1939
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 9:03 am: | |
Shelley,
Yes, a lot of serial killers (as well as killers in general) do try this hoax with hearing voices. However, that is usually quite easily discovered, and in the long run you can't confuse a paranoid schizofrenic with a psychopath. One of the Hillside Stranglers tried this approach, but he failed to convince the doctors and the police authorities.
But to claim that all should be hoaxes is completely wrong and a misconception. Yes, this approach is tried a lot, because it gives the criminal the opportunity to avoid prison or a death sentence, but these frauds are for the most part discovered.
Most real paranoid schizofrenics that committs crimes have already a well recorded medical history long before they did these crimes, with prescribed medication etc., and that has also been the case of most of those criminals who are diagnosed as such.
So that "faking" argument doesen't hold up.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shelley Wiltshire
Police Constable
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 9:35 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
Sorry if what you read on my post made you think that psychopaths could fake Schizophrenia and actually fool doctors, i know that they can't fool doctor's, all i am simply trying to say at the end of it is, the Ripper must have a psychopathic personality, read my post above again.
I hope this helps.
Best Wishes
Shelley
Criminology student
For MASC (Ad Crim) |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 9:51 am: | |
Hi Shelley,
I am not so certain about that. He may have had a psychopathic personality but then again, he may not have. I think we have too little information about that in order to fully diagnose him -- because, as I've stated above, not all serial killers are psychopaths.
As far as I am concerned, there are some indications on the crime scenes that points to a somewhat disorganized and mentally disturbed individual while some of the circumstances may point in the opposite direction, depending of how we choose to interpret the evidence at hand.
So I don't think the Ripper must have had a psychopathic personality, although there of course is a possibility that that could be the case. As for myself, I dare not today have a total opinion about it.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shelley Wiltshire
Sergeant
Username: Shelley
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 9:56 am: | |
Oh before i forget again,
Glenn, Paranoid schizophrenics do not kill methodically, their mental state does not allow them to think that clearly. Some good points though Glenn. Oh and sorry for saying 'Computer' i just said it as a matter of speech, i am aware of what you explained..as last time i heard the FBI had named Kosminski as the suspect, i think this was in A-Z of Jack the Ripper by Paul Begg.
Cheers
Shelley |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:33 am: | |
Shelley,"paranoid Schizophrenics do not kill methodically,their mental state does not allow them to think that clearly".
As a general rule I think you are right here.
However it depends on the individual and the progression of the illness and indeeed whether it manifests itself in violence and killing.As you and Glenn have said by no means all and in fact these days very few people who suffer from this illness become violent or kill.Thankfully.But some do especially if they come of their medication and there have been a few cases recently where this has resulted in frenzied killing/stabbing completely out of the blue and having no rhyme or apparent reason.
But not all such individuals behave like this who have paranoid schizophrenia.Hitler as I stated above is such a case.In fact he is a text book case worthy of your study as it will provide a wider spectrum of how the illness can manifest itself than many less famous examples.
He was cold calculating deeply paranoid and totally ruthless.He was a loner who through his zealous committment to German nationalism was able to inspire and lead a whole generation of disaffected Nationalists towards fascism ---and to World War Two ,the systematic slaughter of six million Jewsas well as anyone else who opposed him [Romany Gypsies/communists and others ---and there were many thousnds of German people who opposed him which is often forgotten.But he was clever enough and it must be said mad enough to overcome a destroy all opposition-for a time.
So check it out because here you have a classical case of paranoid schizophrenia.
Natalie |
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