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Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 8:59 am: |       |
I am currently researching Australian and New Zealand press reports covering the murders.
In a NZ paper from 19 November 1888, under the Cable News from London there is the simple comment:
It is believed that Mr. Jasper Pyne committed suicide.
I must stress there is nothing in the report that overtly links this with the murders but as it is such a "sensitive" time for any suicide reports, I wondered why this man's death would be reported on the other side of the world when there is no indication of who he is.
Does anyone know anything about Mr. Pyne and who he was, and what were the cirumstances of his suicide?
Thanks in advance
Chris S
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Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 131
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi, Chris:
It looks as if a Jasper Pyne was an Irish landowner. See
THE HISTORY AND LEGENDS OF BALLYVOLANE HOUSE (scroll down to "History")
Discoveries in County Cork, Ireland
The latter site shows an early photograph which looks like a Daggeurotype circa 1840-1850 of an elderly man named Jasper Pyne, so the man who committed suicide in 1888 may have been a descendent, say his son or grandson.
My sense is that the 1888 suicide of a man named Jasper Pyne has more to do with the Irish land question in the late nineteenth century than the Jack the Ripper case.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 10:38 am: | |
Hi Chris
many thanks for that - thats why I made a point of saying there was no overt link with the case:-)
very useful info- one of the appeals of this acse is the weird and wonderful byways it leads you into
regards
chris S |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 223
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 1:51 pm: | |
Bizzaro
as I do believe the present owner of 'Ballyvolane House' has actually self-published a book about the Yorkshire Ripper and has an abiding interest in the case of Jack. |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
Hi, AP
Hmmmmm... Close but no banana this time AP. I believe you mean
Noel O'Gara,
Ballinahowen,
Athlone,
Ireland.
O'Gara is the author of The Real Yorkshire Ripper. Jasper Pyne's manse 'Ballyvolane House' is though in County Cork not County Athlone, though we can blame the bloomin' Irish for making the names so alike. Or was that aloik?
All the best
Chris |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 224
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Chris
It were but a flash from me memory, but you are of course quite right.
I take great solace in the sharp fact that both addresses began with a 'B' and both are in Ireland.
When this simple reckoning is applied to the case of Jack we are sure to have a solution.
Ah, County Athlone, the memories come flooding back, how those banana plantations stretch to the limit of the horizon. |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 12:25 am: | |
Hi, AP:
Well both names begin with Ball. So I suppose you could be said to have made a Balls of the identification. However, being somewhat dyslexic myself with names that start with the same letter (for years I couldn't understand why Anthony Quinn and Anthony Quayle had the same name), I am just as capable of making a Balls of things too.
All my best
Chris |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:52 pm: | |
Hi Chris Scott,
I have been ferreting around in the British Biographical Index again and found the following entry which may be helpful. Because of technical problems with the copy I have had to transcribe hereunder rather than sending a scan.
PYNE, JASPER DOUGLAS (son of rev. Wm. Masters Pyne, R. of }Oxtead, Surry 19 Jan 182? to his death 22 May 1869 aged 68) b.1847; educ. Tonbridge sch. 1859-65; a large tenant farmer under Duke of Devonshire at Lisfanny castle, Waterford; M.P. for West division of Waterford 2 Dec 1885 to death; having a warrant out against him under the Crimes set shut himself up in his castle of Lisfanny and defied the police Nov. 1887; jumped overboard from the Shamrock, London and North Western steamer going from Holyhead to Dublin 14 Nov 1888.
From: Boase, F. Modern English biography 6v. 1892-1921.
Please note that Lisfanny could also perhaps read Linfanny, I am afraid my copy is rather unclear.
Regards,
John Savage |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 162
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 1:31 pm: | |
John
Many thanks for that - very helpful. Although his being based in Ireland looks unpromising, if the ferry he was on was from Holyhead to Dublin, he must have set out on the trip from mainland UK. Now we know who he is...I still wonder why his death was reported without explanation or comment on the other side of the world?
Regards
Chris S |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 3:07 pm: | |
Hi, Chris and John:
I don't find it too surprising that a newspaper on the other side of the world reported the death of this Irish politician. In some ways, newswise, the world in 1888 seemed to be a smaller place than today, with all the newspapers worldwide copying information on news events from each other.
What though is a bit surprising is that in one American newspaper the Mitchell Daily Republican of Mitchell, South Dakota, 25 February 1890, they talk about the filling of the vacant parliamentary seat left by Pyne:
"At Dublin, Mr. Alfred Webb was elected to fill the seat in the house of commons held by Mr. Jasper Douglass Pyne, Home Ruler, who mysteriously disappeared some time ago. Mr. Webb was unopposed."
Does this suggest that there was suspicion that Pyne was murdered?
I have found, although have not seen it, that there is an article in the Irish magazine Decies 43 (Spring 1990) published by the Waterford Archaeological & Hist Soc apparently called "Jasper Pyne enigma, Ire."
Best regards
Chris George
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 163
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 6:38 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Many thanks for that lead- I have found that the editor of Decies is called Greg Fewer and I have mailed him asking if it is possible to get sight of the article you mention
Regards
Chris S |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 6:44 pm: | |
Hi Guys,
I am afraid I have no ideas or other information apart from the above snippet.
However I have noticed that Chris Scott has an amazing ability at finding reports from newspapers, may I suggest that Irish Newspapers of the time may be the place to look. Also were there any American papers that took an especial interest in Irish affairs?
Regards,
John Savage |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 2:24 pm: | |
Hi John,
Actually, the papers in Boston and New York, with
the large Irish populations, would have taken
an interest in Pyne. In New York City's newspapers, the NEW YORK HERALD had a decided
pro-Irish slant, having had an American Fenian
(Jerome Collins) as it's science writer in the
1870s (he accompanied the ill-fated "Jeannette"
Expedition into the Arctic as meterologist, and
died on that trip - Collins' boss, HERALD owner
James Gordon Bennett Jr. funded that expedition).
I'd start with the HERALD. Then the New York
WORLD (Joseph Pulitzer).
By the way, you are bringing up information from
the British Biographical Index. This is fine, but
the actual source [Frederick Boase's Modern English Biography] is better for one reason. It
has, following the entry that you printed, a bit
of a bibliography, for people wanting to look up
the subject for closer study. Boase is quite good
on this. I have used him. His six volume series
has been republished, and is in the New York Public Library (and the Mid-Manhattan Library) as
well as in college libraries. It is also a fun
read.
Best wishes,
Jeff
Jeff |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
Hi Jeff
Thanks for your comments on the American Newspapers, although being in the UK myself, it may make them difficult for me to check.
With regard the British Biographical Index, let me please explain that this is a source available at my local reference library, whilst Boase is not. BBI includes entries not just from Boase, but many other sources, so for me it is a quick and convenient resource. Your comment about further reading has made me look again at my copy of J. Pyne, and perhaps I should add that the further reading suggested is:
"Sweeney's At Scotland Yard 1905 pp. 124-6: I.L.N. 26 Nov. 1887 p. 611 view of him being lowered from Lisfanny castle to receive a deputation"
Regards,
John Savage |
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