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Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 1:30 am: |       |
Hi all,
I have a question about the location of police stations:
Is the original building of Bishopsgate PoS (Eddowes!) still there and if yes, how would I recognize it standing in front of it? Where exactly is/was it?
I have the the same question about Leman Str. PoS.
Thank you very much in advance
Christian
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Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
Hi, Christian:
The following is said to be an image of Bishopsgate Police Station today so it is clearly not the same police station of 1888.
http://www.btp.police.uk/images/liverst.JPG
This is Bishopsgate Police Station, 182 Bishopsgate London EC2M 4NP. Tel: 020 7601 2606
All the best
Chris |
Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:27 pm: | |
Chris,
thanks for the answer.
Looks like the original Bish-PoS is no more.
I'm sure the same goes for Leman Str.
regards
Christian
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Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 125
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
Hi, Christian:
I have now just checked to see if there might be an image of Leman Street police station on the net, but it appears not. I did though find an interesting site on Tower Hamlets Cemetery Park Walk which includes an image of the rather grand funeral monument to Dr Rees Ralph Llewellyn (1851-1921), a tall three stage monument and other graves and items of interest to students of the case as well as East End history in general.
All the best
Chris |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 11:29 pm: | |
A question. What was the approximate width of Duke Street? Any description of this street would be helpful. Thanks. |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 88
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 7:57 am: | |
Despite complete rebuilding, RJP, I think Bishopsgate and I'm sure Leman Street Police Stations stand in the same situation as their 1888 predecessors. (Though Leman Street has expanded quite a lot, I think).
This is one which Viper should be able to answer if he's still in contact.
All the best,
Martin F |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 89
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 8:06 am: | |
Sorry, Christian & RJP! Silly old fossil again fails to note carefully who he is responding to!
All the best,
Martin F |
Brenda Love
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
I know this is a dumb question/observation, but I am interested to hear what others may say.
We've all heard the stories about how terrible the conditions in Whitechapel were, how poor the people were, only the lowest of the low lived there, etc.
Whenever I see pictures of everyday life around Whitechapel, especially the market photos, everything seems...fairly decent, I guess. You see a lot of people in the photos, everyone looks pretty decent. I've seen pictures of women and children gathered in front of the doss houses, sitting on the sidewalks, but they all seem okay, their aprons are white, etc. They may not have had the best care, but I've seen worse here in the US. There doesn't seem to be trash in the streets in these photos. Berner Street looks clean. The worst I've seen was inside Mary Jane's room, but I'm never sure how much of that is blood and how much is filth.
Maybe slums just weren't as slummy as they are today? Or maybe all the slumminess is hidden inside those buildings? Or maybe I'm just not seeing the right pictures?
To cut to the point, I have a hard time reconciling "People of the Abyss" descriptions with what I see in photos. Tell me what you think. |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 231
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 11:08 am: | |
Brenda, rather than a stupid question, it is one of the best questions ever offered on these boards, and it strikes to the heart of the question. Strange as is seems, despite the thousands of words written about Whitechapel, it is quite difficult to find the actual words of people who lived in the area--the local inhabitants describing their own lives. What is usually offered up by way of 'local color' are the words of Olivia Hill, Andrew Mearns (see Bruce Paley) and other social reformers---who, in many cases, weren't even describing the East End, but other slums in London.
What we are often seeing is a cartoon.
Now, I am not disputing the fact that there was terrible poverty (or rather social injustice, I prefer to call it) in the East End. And overcrowding. What I dispute is that so many of those describing the social conditions of the area, equate poverty with immorality and dishonesty and criminality. "A Warren of Thieves", one contemporary newspaper described it. This is a grotesque exaggeration. My land, we are talking about an area of 800,000 people. The East End was a complex region. Rev. Samuel Barnett, who knew the area better than most, went to great pains to insist that the majority of the inhabitants were decent and hard-working, and that the 'red light district' was largely confined to a 'few acres' around Flower & Dean Streets. (where Mary Kelly lived) And even very near there---one might recall that the young wife Elizabeth Mahoney went strolling through the worst streets in the slum at 2 a.m..
The following is taken from the Detroit Evening News:
"To the Editor:
By the description given in last Sunday's News of the Whitechapel and Spitalfields districts, a person would think it a very low and dirty neighborhood. I lived 10 years in the Whitechapel neighborhood and know every street, and I may say every court and alley as well. Whitechapel is equal to Woodward Avenue in appearance, and the side streets are about the same as East Fort and Croghan streets. As for person travelling at night in this neighborhood, there is no fear as long as you mind your own business. I would as soon be on those streets as on east Fort and Atwater streets. Of course these alleys and yards leading out of the side streets are inhabited by the dirty class, but do not class all with them. As for Petticoat Lane, it is dirty where thousands of people buy and sell in the streets daily. The streets in London are swept daily. The doctor must recollect that there are other people besides himself who have lived in London, and any one who has lived in London at any time knows I tell the truth."
---Charles Boost
Detroit, Mich. 29 November, 1888
Boost's comments are regional (referring to Detroit) but I think his meaning is quite clear. The view of Whitechapel given in most (but not all) books on the subject is largely an exaggerated myth, much like "jack the ripper" is an exaggerated mythical figure. It prevents us from seeing clearly.
(Message edited by rjpalmer on December 06, 2003) |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 199
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 11:45 am: | |
Hi, RJ
A good example of your point is the newspaper article you posted about John Bachert in the "Shades of Whitechapel" thread. There you've got a Whitechapel resident and successful tailor walking around, if I remember the article correctly, with 400 pounds and a diamond ring. I think Albert Bachert was described as respectably dressed, too. So Whitechapel wasn't only for prostitutes, drunks, and murderers.
That article was a good find, by the way.
Best,
Dave
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1492
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
Hi RJ
Say "hunger". Say "homelessness". Say "disease". But please, please don't say "social injustice". Aaagh. It's one of those middle-class phrases moved on by 100 years.
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 233
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 1:46 pm: | |
Robert--As far as I'm concerned, the Christian Reformers should made their 'settlements' in Grosvenor Square-- it's where the criminal classes lived. A 72 hour work week at tenement wages is not what I'd consider 'just.' Now, or a hundred years ago. RP
(Message edited by rjpalmer on December 06, 2003) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 1:58 pm: | |
Hi RJ
It's not primarily a question of what's just. Dying of some terrible illness isn't just either. The most important thing is, it's bloody painful.
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 234
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 2:32 pm: | |
Robert--Yes, of course, I agree with you, (and I'm being deliberately Shavian above). Point taken.
But what do you make of the main argument? Don't you think that we have a somewhat skewed view of what the East End was like? (I don't mean to single out Paley, but he is particularly strong on Andrew Mearns & Booth) In some cases, it seems to me that the author's viewpoint of "place" is directly related to the choice of suspect: the implication being that the murderer had to be a local working-class rough, because no one else would have survived five minutes in the district. I just don't quite see the East End in that light at all. Since the murders all took place within a small area, it's certainly sensible to believe it was someone living in the area, but I think to theorize about the class of the murderer(s) is on somewhat weaker footing. McCormick, on the otherhand, stresses the fact that the area was teeming with anarchists and foreigners. And little wonder, if you see who his suspects are. The demographics of Whitechapel becomes a battleground for the theory.
But it's obvious that I like to argue. I'll take a leave now. Cheers, RP |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1495
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 3:14 pm: | |
Hi RJ
Before you go off :
Yes, it's not surprising if we have a skewed view. It was skewed 115 years ago too. Working-class natives said it had to be a Jew. Jews were sure it couldn't be one of their number. Both groups thought it could have been a toff....
I find it difficult to understand a society where a police constable can have a maid.
Robert |
Mara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:52 am: | |
Which police station was nearer to the site where Elizabeth Stride was murdered? Do you know off hand how far of a walk it was from the station to the murder site? Were all the murdered women taken to the same morgue? |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 368
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 8:01 am: | |
Mara
Leman Street would have been the closest. The quickest way from Leman Street station to Dutfield's yard would be to go through Hooper Lane, up Back Church Lane and along Fairclough Street. |
Mara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 4:42 pm: | |
Oh thank you, especially for the directions. I was having some trouble reading the street names and figuring out which streets were passable on the Charles Booth map. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 381
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
Mara,
Regarding the second question, sorry should have included that. As far as I know Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols, Annie Chapman, Liz Stride and Alice McKenzie were all taken to the Whitechapel Workhouse Morgue. Kate Eddowes and Mary Kelly were taken to different morgues. |
Andi Ward
Police Constable
Username: Andi
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:20 am: | |
Where in the Whitechapel area would there be more "respectable" lodging available other than doss houses? Liz Stride got 6p for cleaning two rooms at a lodging house--is this another term for a doss house? Were there any inns in the area, or did any of the pubs rent rooms, perhaps?
Thanks for any assistance! |
Mara
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:07 pm: | |
Thank you! Do you or does anyone know the locations of the morgues to which the bodies were taken? I can't find this info on the site anywhere. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 677
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 3:08 pm: | |
Hi, Mara
Some of the mortuaries where the victims were taken were actually only sheds in backyards. They are mentioned in some of the press reports. For example, the body of Mary Nichols was taken to a "mortuary in Pavilion-yard" (East London Observer, 8 September 1888) while the body of Liz Stride "was removed to the parish mortuary of St. George's-in-the-East, Cable-street" ( Woodford Times (Essex), 5 October 1888). The memoirs of D. G. Halsted, a doctor in training at the Royal London Hospital, Whitechapel Road at the time of the murders, appears to indicate at least some of the bodies were taken to that hospital, but that could be misleading information, and his memoirs were written decades later. Initially, at least, the victims' bodies appear to have been taken to mortuaries actually in the neighborhood as stated by the press at the time. Mara, I hope this helps.
Best regards
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 678
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 3:21 pm: | |
Hi, again, Mara
Actually, you can search yourself in among the contemporary newspaper articles for any mentions of "mortuary" if you go to the search page for the press section at
http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/search_press.html
And please, Mara, if you do so, and say a little prayer of thanks to the intrepid late Mr. Adrian M. Phypers (Viper) and his crew of volunteers who worked to archive this invaluable information for us. 
Best regards
Chris George |
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