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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 3:14 am: | 
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Hi,
None of us have any idea of the background of Mary Kelly only unreliable accounts of her life which were relayed to Barnett.
Clearly after her death efforts were made to trace her family which appear to have been possible then by information from her landlord/ Barnet/ possibly letters still shelved in her room.
However none of her family attended her funeral[ at least the service graveside] and i have always wondered why?.
Obviously there could be several reasons.
1] A reluctance to draw the attentions of the media to mayby a proud family.
2] mayby there was a child/children involved and it was thought best to protect them from such knowledge.
I would assume those two points may hold the reasons.
The familys name throughout the last Hundred plus years has never been breached ,and nobody has broke the silence.
Now back to the point of this thread.
what type of person was Mjk?.
Her appearence appears to have been of a buxon nature and she would have been well known in her neighbourhood, she appears to have been of a lively disposition which is normal for a young person of 24 years[ which we seem to forget is young].
She appears to have been of a generous nature and would share her fortune with others, and would attempt to give the girls down on there luck assistance.
The most striking observation is her impatient manner, she appears to have soon tired of situations, notably tired of her family, tired of the west end[ includig a paris trip] tired of living at Mrs Bullers., tired of Morganstone, tired of Flemming, and eventually tired of Barnett.
And of course one other name we should mention is the Drover Lawrence, a man more then one person believed to have been her husband, a man she often went to stay with whilst living in millers court, but returned when 'Tired of the life'
One wonders if this mans christian name was Joe?]
For the fact is someone who Mary called Joe' by her own admission to her friends often Illused her for living with the othe Joe [ Barnet].
Therefore we have signs of violence towards the deseased by this person, and a definate suspect for her murder.
Trouble is what Joe are we looking for . Flemming or possibly Lawrence. or indeed another man we are unaware of.
I started this thread to give a insight into Kellys personality, and mayby add two more solid candidates for her murder, which originally was considered to have been a act of Jealousy'
Regards Richard. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2430
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 6:31 am: |
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Richard,
Mary Kelly was addicted to alcohol to the degree that buying her "medication" came before paying her rent.
There were other means of earning a living,even in 1888 for a woman of 24 /25.
Mary chose prositution-why?
Natalie |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 459
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 10:54 am: |
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To enlarge upon what Nats said, I don't think she was "tired" of France or the West End. I rather think that they tired of her.
I can't imagine a woman choosing to leave a situation of being kept or even employed in a brothel to walking the streets of Whitechapel.
That's assuming of course that the whole story wasn't a pack of lies.
I think that Mary was a mean drunk, difficult to get along with in her cups . She was loud and probably fought a lot. We can see her as being soft hearted in offering her home to other prostitutes but perhaps that was a way to force Barnett out and maybe skim a little off the top.
I just don't see her as this cheery social butterfly, flitting around the neighborhood spreading a merry "good morning" around to the neighbors.
If we could go back in time and meet the real Mary-or whatever her name was- I think that her personality might shock some of us even more than the true identity of the murderer.
Mags
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 947
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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Anyone would be tired of "the life", if they had any modicum of dignity. The knowledge of having to indulge in prostitution to support one's alcoholism before paying the rent or eating would add to that misery. [ good point,Nats..]..
She sold her self because she,like a lot of others, were addicted to drink. Its hard to feed a drinking habit,if one is working in a factory 8-12 hours a day. Selling ones self doesn't require punching a time clock.
Mags is probably right on the money about Kelly. Although her tragic demise warrants sympathy, her habits and the environment probably made her a hardass woman. [good points,Maggie..]
Nats...here again is an example of the problem with many of the poor [ over at the Katrina thread ] that I was referring to. Kelly had an advantage that many of the immigrants didn't have [ able to speak English ] and yet had a problem with obtaining the available jobs that the immigrants seem to have been able to find... Same old story,my dear....
(Message edited by howard on September 11, 2005) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2432
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
Well maybe Mary hadnt reached rock bottom but she certainly seems to have had difficulty putting down the drink.
You refer to the impetus poverty seems to give
to those arriving in various countries as immigrants and I agree with what you say here.
Where I would probably take issue is over the reasons that lie behind the development of an "underclass" in any of the rich Western nations.
But Howard such discussion would belong to quite another thread-so unless you really,really want to have such a discussion its probably better to leave it.
Cheers Nats
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 3:48 am: |
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Hi,
With Reference to kellys drinking habits, apart from a possible meeting with Mrs maxwell where she states that she had the 'Horrors' for she had been drinking for some days past, and that in the days before the 'Ripper' scares she was fond of taking seamen back to her room with a bottle slung under her arm, and one reference by Barnett that they once were evicted [ in the early days] for 'going on a drink' I do not consider her abnormal for a young lady [24years] in her day to day existance in that area.
Infact she was described as a plesant girl of sober habits especially when under the wing of Barnett.
one noticable point is she seems to have let down her guard somewhat in the recent days , for it was her strict policy that she didnt venture out on the streets alone at night, also bring men back to that room, the very fact that she wanted night time company from her associates[ sleep overs] confirms her anxieties
Mr Blotchy face could not have been her killer for she was seen after he had left, which confirms to me that she was right in trusting this companion, she was apparently seen after mr Astracans visit so again she was right in her judgement, yet the person she met after maxwells sighting [ whoever he was] did kill her giving me the impression that either she assumed as it was daylight this person was not 'jack' and she would be safe or she knew her killer intimately and the thought that her life was in danger never crossed her mind.
I just cannot entertain that the paronoid Kelly took a stranger back to her room in the middle of the night and was swiftly killed, or some homicidal lunatic fumbled his way into her room without her knowledge and proceeded to butcher her.
She without doubt was murdered in the morning by a series of events in which Mary kellys judgement was impaired.
Regards Richard. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
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Hi Richard,
A plausible explanation for no family members attending the funeral might be that they knew Mary Kelly by another name and had no idea the murdered woman was their relative.
With serial killers there is sadly little way of judging that they should not be trusted, which would neatly explain why Jack was able to carry on gaily murdering and mutilating with the world and his wife knowing about what he was doing in Whitechapel.
Add to that the fact that beggars can't be choosers, and that many an unfortunate's next drink was more important to her than a bed, or even life itself, and you have a recipe for a repeat performance with Mary, and her being none the wiser until it was a wee bit late.
Love,
Caz
X |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1462
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 4:19 am: |
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Hi Caz,
I must disagree with your purposal that Kellys relatives may have not been aware that Mary was the victim, surely did she not receive letters from her Mother? c/o McCarthy .To me that is obvious that the writer of these letters was only to aware of her daughters fate.
The simple fact is the family of Mjk did not appear to have travelled to London for the funeral, reasons why was proberly publicity which coincided with shame.
Although the prostitutes in Whitechapel district along with women who were not unfortunate were scared during these times kelly was [information obtained] extremely paronoid and my argument was that she would never bring any man that was someone she was not familar with back to her room especially someone as suspicious as Hutchinsons man carrying a parcel in his hand.
The fact is however she was killed by someone , my summise is that this person was trusted by her because she knew him and not the result of taking a chance...
Richard. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 466
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Maybe her family didn't come because they couldn't afford to.
Are we certain that she received mail from her family or is that another tale? Where's Don Souden when you need him?
Richard, I have to strongly disagree with the notion that any woman in Mary's position would have turned away any potential john.She was desperate for booze and for money and the next stop was out in the streets.
Mags
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1463
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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Hi Mags,
I believe it to be a ascertained fact that McCarthy received mail addressed to Kelly via 26 Dorset street, i gather that mail was then distributed to the relevant tenants in the court.
As for Mary kellys plight i agree her situation was dire, however she owed approx six weeks rent at the time of her death around four weeks before Barnett left her one wonders how her soon to be heartbroken ex was unable to give her or her landlord sufficent money to satisfy his demands, he obviously was at the very least in temporary work as he claimed to have visited her several times since his departure on the 30th october and given her money, indeed this poor soul was unable to give desperate mary any money on the thursday evening but was still able to play cards in his lodgings that night [ obviously for matchsticks]
The fact is Mary was scared but she was also cautious and i would suggest that she would never have ventured on a game of russian roulette with a dodgy john.
Regards Richard. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2457
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Hi Richard,
How can you be sure Jack didnt know Mary,had been back to her room before,or that in fact Jack wasnt Mr Blotchy face who was mentioned as having been seen being taken back to Mary"s room that night carrying a tankard of beer while Mary was almost too drunk to say "Goodnight". |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1465
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
I agree that it is entirely possible that the reason she trusted her killer is that he had been a regular on occasions since the murders began , and therefore asumed that if he was 'Jack' then she would not be still alive.
However the fact is according to Hutchinsons statement she was seen after her encounter with the said man, that is not to say that he did not return after she had serviced Mr Astracan.
But i find that most unlikely.
I would say whoever Mr Blotchy face was he was unlikely to have been a sexual encounter with Mary as she appears to have spent her initial moments [ about a hour ] practising karoke which would hardly fullfilled a client ready for servicing.
I still maintain that she survived that night intact apart from being awoken from a reoccurence of a nightmare as she was petrified spending the night alone in that room.
That scream was heard by several folk in the court and it is because of this one has i believe come to a false conclusion regarding her actual time of death.
Regards Richard. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2957
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Hi all
OK it seems obvious to me that whoever Mary was talking to ..Blotchy, Hutchy or whoever ....she was 'comfortable!' with and had no problem at all....she certainly wasn't frightened at all! In fact was just merely passing the time with either people she knew, people she KNEW, or maybe 'by sight' friends that she passed day in and day out aka Mrs Maxwell!
Mary was quite obviously well capable of taking care of herself at the end of the day I feel!
Suz |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2459
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
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Hi Richard,
Its possible that Mr Blotchy face wanted to be entertained in this way by Mary.Didnt she tell one of her friends she had a relative on the stage?
Maybe she thought she was practising for some kind of "Music Hall audition"if she sang so loudly for over an hour-its seems a strange sideshow almost but maybe he was the ripper pretending to have connections with the theatre and he watched how she worked the window/door feature----and came back later!
Suz,
Think your last line above was proven not to be
the case!
Natalie |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 5:33 am: |
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Hi ho
Mary was the victim, surely did she not receive letters from her Mother? c/o McCarthy
GIven the way Irish emigrants maintained links, is th eabove fact not suggestive that McCarthy knew MJK or her family better than supposed or might even have been a distant relation (although I dont know why he wouldntt come out with that information. Then again, having a drunk whore in th efamily would have been bad for a Catholic family). Maybe thats why he let her get behind.
When he sent his lackey round on the fateful morning to try to collect rent, surely thats indicative that it was a half hearted attempt, otherwise he should have stormed round himself? Why was he not that concerned about such a girl owing him all that money?
Mr P |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
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Richard,
"I just cannot entertain that the paronoid Kelly took a stranger back to her room in the middle of the night and was swiftly killed"
... why not? If she'd been as paranoid as you suggest (and we really have no direct evidence of her parnoia) she wouldn't have invited Mr Blotchy or Mr Astrakhan (if he existed) back to her room either.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 882
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 4:06 am: |
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Has anyone ever checked on McCarthy's family tree? If Mary's mother were the landlord's sister, or a cousin (perhaps distant), it might explain his comparative indulgence towards MJK over the rent. Equally, Mary might have been related on Mrs McCarthy's side (do we know her maiden name?).
On letters - MJK was supposed to be illiterate (Barnett had to read the papers to her). That might suggest her family were in the same condition - though some (Johnto) might have been more skilled.
On the whole, I am inclined (on the basis of the so far inconclusive research) to take with a pinch of salt anything said to have been said by MJK about her past. The moreso, indeed, because it is relayed to us via Barnett who may have misunderstood or been misunderstood.
On MJK's character, I think we have to balance he matural personality, which may have been warm, tender and carefree for all I know, with the possibility that she also possessed a ready and fiery temper. She was probably a Celt (whether welsh or Irish) after all!!
We cannot tell whether she embroidered her past or told the truth to make herself "grander". (Was it Drew who commted that Emma Smith had something in voice or manner that hinted at a better past?)
But her life and lifestyle in the East End must also have had an impact on how Mary behaved and on her mood. Drink would probably have taken its toll too. And what prospects did she have - what dreams destroyed - maybe she had been disowned by her family (Catholic if Irish/Methodist if Welsh?) - and could not go back; and their rejection would explain why none attended her funeral if they knew about it. All this might have made her depressed at times - in such a state she might have rejected, rudely or even violently, well-intentioned efforts to help. Barnett might have seen both sides of her - but could he understand; would he be able to break-through to the MJK he loved?
She was a prostitute, and thus to an extent, an actress. The attitude she revealed to a potential client, might be greatly different to that which she showed to those closest to her, or to what she really felt.
My understanding is that in a brothel (as in a harem) there may be surface camaraderie, but also underlying that jealousy and a vicious battle for a place in the pecking order and a need for almost ruthless self-centredness. You would not survive otherwise. Younger girls wanted the better clients no doubt; older fading whores would almost inevitably be jealous of younger, better-looking, newcomers. Would not life in that environment (assuming Mary ever entered it) eventually alter and warp character?
Frankly, I am against sentimentalising tyhe period or the women, as I feel the first post in this thread does. The analysis needs to be deeper - there are many more options for the family not attending the funeral than those given - and to start from the period and the known background, not a personal view of the individual. Like most of us, Mary was no doubt complex - but her situation may have complicated things even more. Even had we more reliable information, it might not be possible fully to understand her. But I think I agree most with Mags when she wrote, above:
If we could go back in time and meet the real Mary-or whatever her name was- I think that her personality might shock some of us even more than the true identity of the murderer.
I have an open mind about every aspect of Kelly. But I know that we must avoid the "Hollywood" cliche of the pretty, nice young whore. I am certain that we would be surprised - even shocked, as mags says, if we knew the truth.
Phil |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:11 am: |
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Hello,
I am really going out on a limb with this one.
What am I missing here? It is all pretty much all speculation. All we really know is what Barnet said, and a few of the neighbors (some of them doubtful) So a lot of our information is only speculation, so since we are speculating here goes... We really are not sure that her name was Mary Kelly, and maybe her family didn't show up for the funeral because they knew Mary Kelly was fine and among the living. I have wondered if they didn't show up only for that very reason.
It was not Mary Kelly and her family knew she was fine.
This brings us no closer to who Mary Kelly really was, but might bring us closer to who she wasn't.
Cheers,
Carolyn  |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 886
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
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The difficulty is - we just don't know!! |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1468
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
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Hi,
But Carolyn, McCarthy did receive letters which he believed to have been from the deseased mother, so clearly the mother must have known where abouts she resided in london, and for her to have known this kelly must have either communicated with her family by mail or she met one of her family or a associate whilst in london who knew of her whereabouts.
There is simply no doubt that the family of the deseased had knowledge of her demise by press or police contact.
Intresting point here is the speculation by her associates that she was no mean a scholar and if she communicated to her family by post had to be able to read and write.
So much for those who believe she was without education.
Regards Richard. |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
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Richard,
If, in fact the letters were for sure from her mother then I stand corrected. Did he only state the letters were sent or were any of the actual letters produced? Maybe they were part of what was burned that night in the fire, as it seems strange at least to me, Mary would not have saved letters that were from her family, especially her deceased mother. I would think they would be something she would treasure under the circumstances in which she lived.
Did McCarthy actually state "he THOUGHT they were from her mother"? or did he produce the letters? Could they also have been written by someone other than "our Mary's" mother to her daughter,who in actuality was not the same Mary Kelly?
Thanks,
Carolyn 
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 889
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Carolyn - a reference to the source for McCarthy's comments would be useful - we can then evaluate its worth.
Perhaps Richard would be so kind as to provide one.
Phil |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1469
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
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Hi Carolyn,
I assume you misunderstood my post I am not suggesting her mother was deseased infact very much alive, it is recorded in the annuals of ripper history that McCarthy received letters addressed to Mary Kelly c/o 26 dorset street, and like all the residents of the court were either collected in the shop or taken round to the relevent person.
Questions arise from MJK receiving post from her family.
1] acording to Barnett she had nothing to do with her family.
2] if so how did her family know of her wherabouts?
3]according to Barnett she had a brother in the scots guards nicknamed Jonto, and even knew the troop movements for that period [ which is uncanny if she had received no correspondence.]
It is a fact that Kelly received correspondence from her real family up to the time of her death, it is questionable if it was with a real desire on her part or a search by a relative or a possible sighting from a person that knew her which traced her whereabouts.
Regardless of this she was known by her next of kin to have been murdered by the east end murderer known as 'Jack'.
If this is so then the shame or protection of a offspring may have prevented her mother and immediate family from attending the burial service,
Richard.
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 86
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Hi Richard
I would be interested too in any source references you have for the letters from home c/o John McCarthy.
On the victims section on the casebook for MJK it does mention that McCarthy said she received a letter from her mother, I can't find anything further to say she actually exchanged letters or they went through McCarthy, sorry if I am just missing it, but if I am I would be greatful for a pointer please.
Also I thought that modern research had assertained where the Scots Guards would have been in 1888, not that the information had come through Barnett.
Debra |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 141
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
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Richard,
I did misunderstand the part about the deceased mother. Sorry.
Would still like to have source references proving they were from her mother. Or were they just statements that were made by McCarthy. Was there any proof that these letters existed?
Thanks,
Carolyn |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
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Hi Carolyn,
There are various reports of Kellys family in a November interview with
a newspaper Mccarthy states that 'Mary received correspondence from Ireland which he understood were from her mother'
Also Barnett told Abberline that Mary had a brother named henry who served in the scots guards, he also added that henry had visited her although he never met him personally.
Richard. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 891
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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Where is this quoted or cited, Richard? The reference remains hugely vague - although I am well aware of the brother story. Do you have a printed source for the first part of your statement?
Phil |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 6:34 am: |
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Howdy
I doubt very much that she was at all sweet and nice.
She would have been brought up in a heavy drinking semi-violent matriarchal society still reeling from the Nazi-like Penal Laws where women would be just as likely to be hitting you with a stick as the men.
If you want to know what women of the day were like then I suggest you read Synges "Playboy of the Western World" in which I reckon the character Pegeen Mike (transferred to the East End) would pretty much fit the bill).
Such a women torments her suitors, treats them with disdain, views patricide as something a suitor would use to woo her and swings from being generally impressed by violent acts to honey mouthed coyness. Not someone you bring home to your parents.
Mr P. |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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John McCarthy is French.
Mary Kelly uses the alias Marie Jeanette and claims to have been to France with a gentleman but returned because she did not like the life.
John McCarthy is described as being 'a gentlemanly looking man' and rents many of his rooms to prostitutes.
Kelly owes him 30/- rent, thats a lot of money.
Just before she is killed she buys a candle from his shop, she owes him a lot of money yet she's still going into his shop spending?
Something about this is just not right. |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 142
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:46 am: |
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Richard,
Again no actual letters. They could have been from anybody. I'm sorry none of the above proves to me that Mary was written to by her family.
Again, it is second source information.
Mcarthy stated he "understood" to be from her mother.
Barnett told a lot of different things to different people about Mary...
Thanks,
Carolyn |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 906
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 2:13 am: |
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McCarthy is described in the A-Z as being born in Dieppe - does that make him French?
Phil |
Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:15 am: |
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For the information of Mr. Poster these penal laws were not as bad as the propaganda makes out. They were seldom enforced and O'Connell achieved the repeal of the last of them which would not have made a blind bit of difference to the vast mahority of Catholics who were to poor to sit in parliament.
Characteristics you refer to are in fact a constructed version of Irish womanhood just like the more positive versions would be constructed by those in a position to. |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
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McCarthy is described in the A-Z as being born in Dieppe - does that make him French?
John McCarthy was born in France but was English by nationality.
But he was born in France,his family were French and they undoubtedly had relatives there.Its slender,but it's still a link.
Mary Kelly was in arrears to the tune of thirty shillings, which is a lot of money, and yet John McCarthy did not turn her out - why?
Me? I think he was lying through his teeth & so was Barnett.I think John McCarthy supplemented his income from the earnings of prostitutes living in McCarthy's rents and the morning he sent 'his man' to her room it was to collect his cut of the nights earnings and not the rent.
But he could hardly say that to the police now could he?
It's her buying the candle that is important, it's John McCarthy's shop,if she has money for candles then she has money for rent.
Mary Kelly lied about who she was and where she came from, that much is obvious today, because 'Mary Kelly' simply cannot be found.One thing I find most odd though, I've yet to come across anyone, other than Barnett, who called her Marie Jeanette. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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Howdy C. Lowe
There is no way that this forum is the place for the usually heated discussion of the Penal Laws.
If any one is interested in the vast number of such statutes, their enforcement and their continuance well into the 19th century, just go here: http://www.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/ but it makes for grim reading and after reading them, the opinion that can be formed is that they were a blueprint for other countries that liked to repress religions/races/creeds.
As to their implementation, a quick walk round the west of Ireland with its priest holes, descerated holy sites, cemetaries for babies who couldnt be baptised under the laws and so on and on is a good way to dispel any notions that they were not implemented. I suggest any reader go to DownPatrick Head in Co Mayo for a quick insight into what the Penal laws could do to a community.
The Penal Laws had very little to do with sitting in Parliament. Oh wait, heres a good one:
"9 Will III c.1 (1697):
An Act for banishing all papists exercising any ecclesiastical jurisdiction and all regulars of the popish clergy...
Sec. 4-5. Anyone who shall knowingly harbour such popish clergy shall for the first offence forfeit 20 pounds, for the second offence, double that sum, and for the third offence, shall forfeit all his lands during his life, and also his goods and chattels, one half to his Majesty, one half (not to exceed 100 pounds) to the informer."
I would estimate that maybe 10% of all individual penal statutes referred to sitting in parliamnet.
Synges description while verging on caricature, remains a fair word picture of the sort of character I imagine would be the sort of girl to embark on the adventures that seem (if they are to be believed) to have brought MJK to where she was. It doesnt matter to me whether you like it or not. Its no less valid than the depictions of her on the "paint the Marys Face" thread which are usually accompanied by a "this is how I like to think of her" sentence.
John McCarthy being French interests me indeed. One of the main outcomes of the Penal Laws (not, as Christopher would have us believe, just being banned from parliament) was the mass exodus of Irish catholics to France and Europe (in many cases expulsion rather than willing emigration as a favourite punishment for being a popist was to be fired out of the country. Handy when you want to do a bit of ethnic cleansing). This is perfectly in accordance with what dispossessed Catholics tended to do at the time. It has been estimated that from 1691 to the end of the 18th century, 1 million Irish men had been in the srvice of the French army alone.
A second interesting point is that, despite the dominance of Lecky's history of Ireland in the 18th century (W.E.H. Lecky. A History of Ireland in the Eighteenth Century. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago and London: 1972) and its opinions, the connection between the Irish left behind and the continenatl Irish was stronger than might be expected. As Cullen “The Irish Merchant Communities Of Bordeaux, La Rochelle And Cognac In The Eighteenth Century” Negoce et Industrie en France et en Irlande. Collection of Franco-Ireland History, Bordeaux. 1978 ) points out, commerce was the main way that the diaspora kept in close touch with those in the home country and the reason for the diasporas success abroad as well as ports like Galway.
As this refers to Mccarthy, we now have:
A McCarthy whose family name derives from the two areas mentioned in association with MJK,
MJK having stayed with a McCarthy and a Carthy during her time in London,
A McCarthy who was born or spent time in France,
MJK spending time in France,
A MCcarthy who did not seem to be so concerned about her being in arrears,
A McCarthy who was supposedly collecting letters for her from her mother.
I still reckon there was more to the relationship between MJK and JMcC than just landlord/tenant.
Mr P.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2474
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
|
Hi Mr P,
A few things that have interested me about Mary Kelly are the references by Mr and Mrs John McCarthy of her "well to do" background.Others referred to her as being well educated, artistic-and Maria Harvey indicated she was not the sort of person usually to be found doing what she did.
We hear from John McCarthy that Mary drank "excessively" and Sarah Cox talks of her being so drunk the night she died that she could barely say "Goodnight"-though she sang for an hour after this-much to the annoyance of her neighbours.
On the Inquest papers and on her tombstone her name is written as Marie Jaenette Kelly-but she was "known "simply as Mary Kelly.
Somebody In one of the Lodging houses said she spoke "fluent Welsh"-I wonder how they knew this-could they have "misunderstood" and it was "fluent French" she spoke?
Why am I thinking of Mary and Dieppe?Was there some report of her going to Dieppe with a Gentleman?
Coming back to her family.
Barnett said her Father once came looking for her
and Mary hid from him.Mrs Phoenix said Mary told her her family had discarded her-she certainly doesnt seem to have had much to do with them!
On the other hand Paul Begg regards one of the things Barnett said about her brother ,nicknamed Johnto[possible real name Henry]who came to visit her while Barnett was living with her, as one of the most crucial clues we have about Mary.
He says McCarthy"s assertion to the press about Mary receiving letters from Ireland was probably true-and they were probably from her brother[not her mother as reported which could have been a misprint.
The Scots Guards actually did get posted from Chelsea,London to Dublin in August 1888 and then on to County Kildare until June 1889 so if as John McCarthy said he had seen letters to Mary from Ireland they were probably from her brother. Its unlikely Joe Barnett was making this up-or that he had a particular interest in following their detailed movements unless there was a connection to Mary.
Just a few more thoughts about her.
Also, I am seriously looking forward to Chris Scotts talk at the Brighton Conference.Hope he addresses some of these conundrums.
Best
Natalie
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Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
The statements of Mr. Poster (and myself) show that Irish history is contested. Academics believe that the penal laws were not that bad, seldom enforced and aimed at both Catholics and dissenters (presbyterians) while local opinion sees them as exclusivly anti catholic and very much enforced. Perhaps the issue of contested memories should be born in mind by everyone who uses these boards.
On what sort of person she was, its hard to say. My instincts tell me she would have suffered from depression in common with modern prostitutes. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2475
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:04 pm: |
|
The statements of Mr Poster and yourself,Mr Lowe
may well have a bearing on Mary Kelly and therefore belong to this thread.
In English the very term ,"Divide and Rule" was coined out of the need to describe a popular method with The British Government of maintaining power and control in colonial countries.
Ireland,so near to home is very much a case in point.
Through British rulers dividing Ireland in the first place and providing the Northern Irish[many relocated from Scotland ] with better housing, better trade and Industry/jobs,and better schools,there is little doubt,whatever role the Penal Laws played, that the British Government ensured maximum animosity between the two sides.
IF Mary WAS an Irish Catholic no wonder she was angry and depressed!
Natalie
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 751
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
|
Natalie,
Somebody In one of the Lodging houses said she spoke "fluent Welsh"-I wonder how they knew this-could they have "misunderstood" and it was "fluent French" she spoke?
There is sufficient difference between Cymric and French (and probably enough speakers of both those languages as well as Irish and Scots Gaelic if things had not changed too much since Mayhew's monumental books were written) that such a mistake is not likely.
More interesting, perhaps, is whether the statement about her fluency in Fluellen's tongue was a) ever made and b) how accurate such an assessment was. Both branches of the Celtic languages (Gaelic and Cymric) being rather incomprehensible to Anglophones an ability to understand any might well imply an unwarranted fluency.
Still, any substantive knowledge of Welsh by Mary would strongly suggest her having spent some of her formative years in Wales.
For that matter, I throw out something suggested once before: IF (and it's a mighty big one attached to anything he reported about Mary) Barnett was correct when he said Mary asked him to read the newspapers to her perhaps she was only literate in either Irish or Cymric.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2476
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 5:45 am: |
|
Hi Don,
First off,nothing to do with this thread----I too have an Aspidistra plant that has been in my family for some 120 years!Its in Wales where my parent retired and now both are dead,I have to make sure I go and water it every month or so!I like the fact so many generations have tended it!
Regarding Mary"s knowledge of Welsh.If she had been there from a very young age as she is reputed to have told Barnett, then it is possible that she attended a Welsh village school where the pupils would have spoken Welsh.
However its also the case that the Welsh schools were forbidden to teach Welsh or allow the children to speak Welsh at school and staff were required to hang a small board from the "offending"children"s necks with "I must not speak Welsh" written on it![well into the 19th century.] Now ofcourse its quite the opposite-you can"t get a teaching job in Wales unless you speak fluent Welsh and its one of the main languages of instruction!
So coming back to Mary I think it more likely that if she was literate she was literate in English but just possibly a strong Irish heritage may have caused the family to teach their children to read and write in the Irish/Gaelic-so possibly she was "bi-literate" to a degree....?
Ah-- but then---having a brother in the "Scots Guards",based in Chelsea- wouldnt this point more towards some affinity with the "English" way of doing things .....after all what were the British Army doing on Irish soil in 1888?
If true that her brother served with the British Army[Begg thinks it likely] then his role, like those in the rest of the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards, would have been seen by those opposed to British Rule such as "The Irish Republican Brotherhood" and/or the "Fenians" as an"Occupying Force".
This is making me wonder whether the brutal death of Mary Kelly may just possibly have had something to do with her connections to her family
in particular this brother Johnto?The local Fenian "Dynamitards" would not have liked such a connection,had they known about it-I think we can be pretty certain of that!
Best Natalie
then maybe Mary"s family had left Limerick for other reasons tham finding work in a Welsh Iron Works!Must give this some more thought!
Best Natalie
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Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:06 am: |
|
Is it possible that members of her family did attend the funeral but did so anonymously.At that time it would have caused the family I can't think of a better word than trouble if their more upstanding friends found out one of their daughters was a murdered prostitute. |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 752
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
|
Natalie,
They are amazingly resilient plants, aren't they? And yes, there is a real sense of "family continuity" associated with mine as well. I remember it at my grandparents' home and then after they died my mom took it (which proved its only worth was sentimental or else her older sister would have grabbed it too). Then, after my mom sold her home, I took it -- and now I can only hope someone will carry on after I'm gone.
As far as Mary and her literacy, like everything else about the woman it is shrouded in mystery. And, as you suggest, much of it would depend on her early history and schooling. Almost all we really have to go on is what she may have told Joe and considering the pair lived cheek-to-jowl for 18 months that really isn't much at all. Either Joe was a very dull chap without an ounce of curiosity or else Mary was a very close-mouthed companion.
Belinda,
According to contemporary newspaper reports (admittedly always a bit suspect) the only people at the graveside service were a priest, Barnett and a half-dozen female friends from the Court. Of course, if she did have family (and they knew of her death) their non-attendance need not indicate they had abandoned her. Their circumstances (poor health, straitened finances, and a host of other things) could have prevented their making the trip.
If ever anyone lived and died in mystery it was "Mary Jane Kelly."
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 929
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 12:07 pm: |
|
Steve, you wrote:
John McCarthy was born in France but was English by nationality.
But he was born in France,his family were French and they undoubtedly had relatives there.Its slender,but it's still a link.
Do you have a reference for the bolded statement? English people (viz Lord Salisbury) often visited Dieppe in the 1880s and stayed there for several months). TE Lawrence's (of Arabia) family lived in exile in Normandy for a time later in the decade because the parents were living in sin!!
I know the lovely actress Kay Kendall was a descendent of McCarthy, but was he indeed of French extraction, or are you simply deducing that from his place of birth.
Detail references/sources would help please.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2480
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
|
Phil,
Regarding the tall, red haired beauty Kay Kendall, granddaughter of John McCarthy.
I remember being quite surprised one time when reading about her .It was in connection with Rex Harrison and a clothes shop they went into in London. This was in the 1950"s .The shop assistant was about to take her to a changing room when she is supposed to have said,"Oh-I dont need a changing room just hand me the clothes as I need them !",whereupon,to the astonishment of all those in the shop, she stripped off completely and tried the various clothes on,leisurely and as required,indifferent to the looks of shock from both staff and other customers.
I was surprised because on film she never came across as a bold or brash type of star yet this, particularly in the 50"s, was quite extraordinary behaviour-film star or not! Marilyn Monroe came in for very heavy criticism in the 50"s for posing naked for a calendar and nudity was never allowed on film or in public places at the time.
I often wonder about that family connection with McCarthy.Its as though the McCarthy"s were all a bit of a maverick bunch somehow!
Natalie
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
What a amazing report, she always came across as a prim and proper actress, repeats of her films on television now are rare however if that great film Gwen..with Kenneth More is ever shown again at xmas i shall view it with a different light.
Richard. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2481
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
|
Hi Richard,
I enjoy watching that film,Genevieve,when its shown.Kay Kendall was very talented it must be admitted.
Sometimes I have wondered if John MacCarthy was related to Mary Kelly.Was he a tallish chap do you know Richard?I often wonder if he was her Uncle or a cousin perhaps.It would make sense in some ways-allowing her to get so behind in the rent-he and his wife buried not far from Mary etc
Don"t forget she came with Joe Barnett as her common law husband-she wasnt on the game when they first rented Millers Ct.
On the other hand there were the Breezer Hill John and Mary AnnJane McCarthy"s that Mary vivited not long before her death and they seem to have been running a brothel!Still there is no proven relationship[yet]with that John McCarthy and the Millers Ct John McCarthy!
Natalie
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
I believe that is a strong connection between McCarthy of 26 Dorset Street and Mary Kelly, the rent arrears is a major clue, the very fact that he allowed such a amount to build up without taking action when he could have simply evicted her and Barnett at any time within the p;revious seven weeks is evidence to this.
Also on the morning she was found he sent Bowyer round to her room to check on her wellfare, not actually to gain rent overdues as Mrs Mccarthy and teenage son were doing the actual collecting at the doors of the other residents, this was done because her friends at the court were worried because they were concerned that there was no reply on knocking on her door.
All of this does not imply that mary Kelly was related to Mccarthy, however when she arrived to live in the court with a man called kelly [ later Barnett] who McCarthy believed was her common law husband she told him her name was Mary Jane Mccarthy mayby a ploy to get his favours, although he soon knew that she used the mans surname which he believed was Kelly , so became known as Mary Kelly, although all her friends knew her as simply Mary Jane, or Ginger.
The fact is he was a man who proberly had a compassion for Mary, and felt sorry for her and as the Ripper scare was at its ultimate gave her more chances to live in that room rather then turfing her out on the streets.
Of course there could have been a more intimate relationship , although i would say proberly not.
Regards Richard. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 931
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
|
We are into the realms of surmise again here.
That there was some arrangement between McCarthy and MJK (whether based on kinship or something else is arguable) seems beyond question - the amount of overdue rent suggests that.
But there are various options:
a) she gave McCarhy sexual favours in lieu of rent;
b) he was doing her a family favour;
c) he received part of her income from prostitution in lieu of rent (don't forget the Court was known as "McCarthy's rents" on that account, and many of the 'seamstresses' resident there were probably on the game).
As for Kelly as a working whore, well, it's been argued for many years that much of the Inquest and postmortem testimony of the deceased's friends deliberately down-played that aspect of their life. A sort of don't speak ill of the dead culture. MJK may well have been on the game the whole time she was at Miller's Court, and at least when Joe was not working.
Phil |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2565
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
|
Phil
just a small historical point of accuracy.
TE Lawrence's family actually spent most of that time on the island of Jersey.
From where I sit and type this I can actually see the house where they stayed at Havre des Pas.
It's a long way from there to the Seven Pillars. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5057
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
|
Phil, I have a feeling that fish may have been at the bottom of the rent arrears, but I'll never be able to prove it, and so it must remain surmise.
However, let's not forget that Benelius's landlord claimed that the Swede owed him 25s, presumably for rent.
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 6:25 pm: |
|
Natalie,
Where was McCarthy from in France? There were about 1.5 million Breton speakers at about 1900, and with a bit of work, a Breton speaker could communicate fairly well with a Welsh speaker I should think as at one time they were the same language.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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