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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2080
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | 
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For a long time now, I have been reconsidering the early notion - actually voiced way back then in 1888 by several personalities involved in the case - that ‘religious mania’ could have played a role in the crimes of JtR.
To that end I’ve been doing some trawling through the archives to see if such a motive could be found in cases of murder during the LVP.
There is nothing really sensational to be found - though it is early days yet and I still have many more reports to look at - the vast majority of cases being sad little affairs where mothers or fathers have murdered their children as a result of what the courts called ‘religious mania’.
However, there is one fairly rewarding case from 1882 (July 13th); not because of the nature of the murder but rather the admitted motive of the murder.
The killing takes place at the Bethnal-House Asylum, when Albert Barret bludgeons another man to death with a ‘towel roller’.
Barret had no history whatsoever of violence, and in fact he got on famously with the man, William Cook, he killed. The killing was out of the blue, so to speak, and Barret admitted when questioned that the man he had killed ‘was a poor useless wretch, and was better out of the way’ and ‘there were three others he would like to serve in the same way’ and that the deceased was ‘out of his misery’.
When Barret was questioned by the Coroner in court the following exchange took place:
‘Coroner: ‘Barret, do you know what has been said?
Barret: ‘Yes, but it is all stuff. Thank God, I killed him to end miserable life, my friend. The Word says, ‘Simply to Thy Cross I cling; nothing in my hand I bring’. I killed him because it is written that it should be so.’
Barret was diagnosed as suffering from ‘religious mania’, and it was observed in the court report that he believed he was in daily communication with The Almighty.
This type of motive is a rarity indeed; and I believe it does show that we cannot rule out such a motive in the crimes of JtR.
After all, if Barret had not been apprehended almost immediately after the killing, he would have gone on to kill another three people whom he firmly believed should be ‘put out of their misery’.
Thus would he have become a ‘serial killer’.
The lesson applies. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 818
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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AP,
I don't know that I would call "religious mania" a "motive." It seems more of a condition to me. In the above example the motive was not religious mania. In fact such in such cases, the murderer seems to have no motive, or only a nonsensical motive ("putting him out of his misery"). As in the case of other insanity, the result is a frustratingly motiveless crime.
Andy S. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 819
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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How about this one from The Times of Jan. 30, 1883:
RELIGIOUS MONOMANIA. -- John Snelling was charged at Folkestone yesterday with cutting a constable's throat on Sunday morning. It was stated that he had been a member of the Salvation Army, and was suffering from religious mania. He was remanded until Saturday. The injured man is progressing favorably.
Curiously, a number of these "religious mania" cases have some connection with the Salvation Army -- which, of course, has East End connections.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on May 16, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2083
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
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Thanks Andy
I did see that one as well, and there are a few more around with connections to the Salvation Army.
Perhaps I worded my post badly?
I was thinking more on the lines as a 'guiding spirit' for murder rather than pure motive.
Albert Fish was a good example of what I'm trying to get at. He killed them to save them.
It was very much the age for that sort of thing, the LVP.
Anyways I'll dwell on what you say.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4392
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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I believe one of those tambourines hurled Kung Fu style can take your head off.
Robert |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 8:11 pm: |
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Hello,
I have read an idea that the Whitechapel Murderer was not killing "to take them out of their misery", but was "taking out the garbage".
I thought of Rev. Samuel Barnett, when I read the above posts. He was an East End reformer who was obsessed with the morals and disgusted with the immorality surrounding him. There has been some talk of him being a suspect, although I doubt it.
Just some thoughts,
Carolyn  |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:13 pm: |
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Mr. Wolf,
I am also reminded of Herbert Percy Edmund Freund, that you mention on the "Speculation Station" thread. You stated he felt he was on a mission from God. He said "I have come in the name of the Lord. I must fulfill my mission." You stated he had "come to deliver the people out of the city".
I have tried to follow up on this but am not having very good luck. He sounds interesting. I like the part about him yelling "fire" to empty the synagogue. Terrible.
Thanks,
Carolyn 
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1752
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:02 am: |
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Hi Carolyn,
And Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, excused his actions by saying he was only cleaning up the streets.
I wonder if they dream up these motives more to explain their behaviour to themselves than to others. They are all intelligent enough to know that society doesn't tolerate a lone killer playing God like that. But that means they also have to reconcile what they do with what they know to be wrong.
From the moment they target the most vulnerable in society - because it's easier and they are more likely to get away with it - the street-cleaning/garbage clearing excuse becomes the easiest and most obvious way to justify what they've gone and done.
What's religion got to do with it? Nothing IMHO. It just comes in handy sometimes.
Love,
Caz
X |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 820
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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Hi, Caz.
The only problem with your line of thinking is that it is rational. Insane people do not thinking rationally. So, if (and that it a big "if") we are dealing with someone who is insane, all rules of reason are off.
Andy S. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2086
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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Carolyn
Yes, Freund was a right 'Herbert' and no mistake.
There are loads of reports in The Times featuring this firebrand nutter, from 1882 to 1887 and probably more that I have not yet found.
It is worth searching simply under the term 'Freund' - although there is a very annoying diplomat also called Freund who keeps popping up and ruining the search - and then sifting through all the reports one at a time.
The 1887 reports are by far the most satisfying, this is where he brings the Great Synagogue to its knees, but it also mentions the obscure quasi-religious sect he belongs to, that apparently has 150,000 members in England.
If you narrow the search down by date, you are looking for 7th October & 30th September.
Good luck, he is an interesting lunatic. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2087
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
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Robert
no joking about tambourines!
In 1878 a certain Marie Cherevan was a dab hand at knocking out drunks with her tambourine.
I don't think she was doing it for their salvation though, she just wanted their money. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2088
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 1:43 pm: |
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This idea, that one could save someone from ‘misery’ by killing them is a motive we do sometimes encounter in more modern killers, like Albert Fish, but it does not appear to be such a common motive during the LVP.
I say ‘does not appear to be’ as we still do not have enough material at hand to be sure either way.
Anyways - despite negativity - I like the idea and motive, and feel it to be entirely consistent with the activities of a killer who selects his victims from the most ‘miserable’ segment of the population, Whitechapel whores, whose existence was so miserable that they were actually called ‘unfortunates’… and then proceeds to ‘save’ them by hacking them to bits and pieces.
I pointed out a long time ago that Jack was not the only one who had a ‘down on whores’, for biblical text has an extreme ‘down on whores’, where specific instruction is provided on how to deal with such ‘unfortunates’, and this text is available right throughout the holy scriptures.
These particular texts have been highlighted in the chapter concerning MJK in the Myth should anyone want to read more.
Caz is right, killers do often make up fanciful explanations and motives for their crimes, but in the case we are dealing with the killer was never caught.
He never talked.
At least we think he never did.
I for one think that he did, and it was probably with The Almighty. |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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Mr. Wolf
Thank you for the information, I will look into
Freund. You have sparked my interest.
I was also thinking along the lines of "The wages of sin is death". This could possibly apply in the thinking of a "killer on a mission" I will reread your texts in your book.
Thanks,
Carolyn |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 600
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
You say insane people do not think rationally and you're right of course. But there's also a large number of serial killers who suffer from personality disorders rather than a mental illness - perhaps even the majority of them do.
And I think that regarding these killers Caz has a point. They often don't know why they do what they do and they tend to blame others when they're asked why they did it. There are also examples of such serial killers who feigned some mental illness so that they wouldn't be held liable for their actions.
Having said that, I think it's quite possible that the Ripper suffered from some form of mental illness, be it mild.
All the best,
Frank
"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4397
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 2:01 pm: |
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AP, re Cherevan : I suppose this was Shake, Rattle and Roll the sailor.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4398
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 2:56 pm: |
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Once one gets into religion and madness, there are some pretty strange things that can happen. AP, I believe it was at about the time of Blake that a philosophy called Antinomianism(?) was knocking around. The basic idea was that Jesus had already paid for all sins, past and future, that mankind might commit. So sinning was OK. A bit like those holiday camps - all you can eat for a fixed charge.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2091
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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This Antiwhatsit movement sounds great, Robert.
Do you have a website where I can sign up and start sinning? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4404
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 6:13 pm: |
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I'll keep my eyes open for one, AP. Not so much Calvary as Carvery.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 821
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
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Antinomianism: from Greek: anti=against; nomos = law. Antonomianism was a way of thinking that reasoned that since Christ died for all sins, God's Law no longer applies and is of no use for the believer. This was no new thought. St. Paul was dealing with it in Romans 6:15 when he wrote "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"
Although a misguided soul could have latched onto a form of antinomianism I know of no Christian organization or sect in recent centuries that adopted it since it is so very specifically condemned in Scripture.
What you are describing might be an offshoot of anarchism, which is a secular philosophy.
With regard to Romans 6:23, "The wages of sin is death" the full sentence is "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." In context it is reminding the reader that everyone deserves death (because Paul has shown that everyone is guilty of sin) but that sinners receive instead the gift of (eternal) life because they are forgiven. Thus one would have to be quite misguided to use "The wages of sin is death..." as a rationale for condemnation of an individual.
Of course, all this being said, I reiterate that a truly insane person does not think rationally and certainly could misapply Scripture to justify his crimes.
Andy S. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1759
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
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Hi Andrew,
But my point is that almost all captured serial killers are declared sane, and therefore responsible for their evil crimes.
It's a bit like Catch 22 - if a serial killer is rational enough to know he has to think up a way to justify his murders, even to himself - eg his victims were better off dead, and society was better off with them dead - no way can he then plead insanity.
I'm sorry, but I think the vast majority of them know perfectly well that what they are doing is considered by society to be wrong, and they will try every trick in the book to shift the blame or otherwise excuse their actions.
The truly insane don't need motives for themselves or to feed to their captors.
Love,
Caz
X |
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