| Author |
Message |
    
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 472
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |       |
According to my thinking, the killer was definitely "in the Yard" at some point -- as I define "in the Yard" to include being in the entryway from Berner St. to the Yard proper. I strongly suspect that he was also in the Yard proper (meaning the area behind the club) at some point because I believe he was interrupted by the sound of Diemschutz approaching down Berner St. and thus could not have escaped through the entryway unnoticed. None of this is established fact, of course.
Andy S. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 920
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:29 pm: | |
Monty,
What if he left the yard after Louis entered and snuck around him. He wouldn't have known he was going to enter the yard and so when he heard someone approaching he jumped into the dark corner as Louis said himself, as pointed out by Chris above, that he couldn't make out what was in the corner next to the gates because it was too dark.
Sarah |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:49 pm: | |
Monty,
I must admit I don't quite get your reasoning here.
You say that the fact that Diemschutz (damned, I hate spelling that name) didn't see anyone in the yard or on the street points to the possibility that the murderer didn't remain there.
I think it points at the complete opposite.
First, Diemchutz didn't see anyone in the yard because
a) it was dark and
b) he was totally focused on what had disturbed his horse and what lay on the ground, and he then directly ran into the club (remember that at first he thought it was his wife).
Secondly, the fact that Diemschutz didn't see anyone in the street is a strong indication on that the killer was in the yard and nowhere else.
Now, I am not saying this for a fact, but I think it is quite logical to assume that Stride's killer was in fact disturbed by
Dmee... Schmie... Diemschutz' cart and popped behind the gates or into another dark corner of the yard and then cleared out while Diemschutz went inside to fetch the others. We have no witness observations from anyone on the street or in the yard the seconds after the body was discovered, but we do have testimonies saying that they didn't see anyone suspicious leaving the yard before that.
The only problem with this scenario is that it doesen't fit the time schedule for Schwartz' assaulting man, if he was the killer (that incident happened several minutes earlier), but then it's of course a question of how much we can rely on his time estimations.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 17, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 2:29 pm: | |
And if in fact he was disturbed and probably nearly caught, this might have been the reason he tore Eddowes to pieces less than an hour later.
(Message edited by pl4tinum on March 17, 2004)
Chris 
|
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:01 pm: | |
Hello Andy S.
We have had a book published recently about a secret WW2 British Army regiment. Sir Robert Mark ex Met Police Comm was a member and has written the foreword.The actor David Niven plus many other 'celebs'were also 'Phantoms'. The book is doing very well. We self published our JTR book after turning down several offers from publishers. The publishers (Cerberus)of our current book 'Phantom at War'are seriously thinking of asking us to do a re-write of our JTR book. We have many new pieces of 'info'collected since 1997 and we will aim at answering many questions of why certain theories come into being.
Back to Dutfields Yard. The yard we think was possibly jointly owned or rented by 2 brothers. The Dutfields. George Dutfield lived in Gower Walk, so it is quite feasible that there was an alleyway or back entrance from the walk into the yard and out into Berner Street.The killer(s) being disturbed could easily hide in the darkness at the rear of the yard and slip away out of the back entrance and into the night.
A&S |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 4:18 pm: | |
G'day,
As I said in my last post here, I started another thread on the 'Victims'/'Elizabeth Stride' board called: 'The killers escape from the Yard'. On this I quote words from 'The Illustrated Police News', text that explains that walls on both sides near the gate were 'Dead'/blind, (ie there were no doors or windows). Therefore the darkest end of the yard would have been the end nearest the gates. In my view it would have been a sinch for the killer to crouch down and hide near the gates, or stand in the corner and wait for the gate to be opened, blocking view of him. Deimschutz would have been so alarmed that he probably ran inside without delay.
LEANNE |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Leanne,
That's good to know, I was curious about the gates being opaque. That would definitely make it very easy for someone to hide in the corner as the gates opened, and then run out behind Diemschutz.
On a different note, Diemschutz said he could not make out what was lying on the ground, at least, that's what Sugden says in TCH. So I doubt he was frightened at the time although it is possible. I would have been more frightened knowing I almost witnessed the murder, after the fact!
Chris
|
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 7:10 pm: | |
Hi Everybody,
I have to agree ith Glenn..as usual...Deimschutz was not trying to find anyone in the yard...
He was SO focused on the body and freaked out that he wasnt even trying to find a person in the shadows. The Ripper(or whoever) could have ran out the gates as Louis went inside to get help.
Andrew,
There was no Back gate or fence in the yard..
if youre facing the gates from the street, there is a tenement building on the Left, that faces the street. The back of the yard is a workshop with a stable attached.. and a stone office building built on to the back of the club.
So basically...there was no way out...unless he went into the office...but there were people inside working and reading...
Best Regards,
Paul |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 8:11 pm: | |
IF Jacky was the killer, then he was still in the yard when ole' Louis drove up....If Jacky wasnt the killer, he was long gone. But Im not going down the "was it Jack or not" road.
Paul |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 9:36 pm: | |
Sugden says there was a main entrance onto Fairclough st. There were 2 ways into the yard as far as I know.
Chris
|
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:35 pm: | |
Hey Chris,
As far as I know there is no entrance onto Fairclough street...did you mean Berner Street?
The side door of the club and the main gates that faced Berner street were the only ways in or out. Best Regards.
Paul |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 922
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 4:55 am: | |
Paul,
I partly agree with you. If it was Jack then I think he would still have been in the yard, but then if it wasn't Jack he may have been long gone, but then he may have only just killed her so he may have still been there, but I think it's unlikely.
Also, as Glenn says, no-one saw anyone leave the yard before Louis entered it and Louis himself didn't see anyone outside the yard or down that street when he entered the yard. I think this points to the killer being in the yard still.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 897
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 5:41 am: | |
Glenn,
OK, I want to get this clear in my head. Because I do not understand your reasoning either…
Louis (its easier to spell) didn’t see anyone in the street therefore someone was in the yard ?
How far away is Commercial st compared to Fairclough st from the yard ??Would he have seen that far ?
Yes it was dark but not dark enough for Louis not to see something down there.
Yes he was totally focused on what he saw. But was it the only thing he saw between Stride and his wife ? Well, yes. Sure, that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t another person present but it also doesn’t mean that there was. So we have gotten nowhere with that particular point proving someone else was in the yard.
I don’t understand you point about witness statements on the comings and goings from the yard after the body was discover. We have two I can think of off the top of my head (Louis and Eagle, who did see other people but not anyone fleeing).
No, you cannot say it for fact that its logical to assume Strides killer was disturbed just as much as I cannot say it for fact that no one was in the yard when Louis’s pony entered it. I am just offering the alternative view.
As for Schwartz, it seems to me some are trying to fit the events of Berners st around his statement. That is disturbing. Please bare in mind he was the only witness to this assault (which may have never happend) to come forward. Therefore his testimony should be treated with respect but also with caution, and also the timing of the murder of Stride.
Monty
(Message edited by monty on March 18, 2004) |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 529
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 5:57 am: | |
Hi All
I posted a lengthy description of what I considered the most likely events after Berner Street on October 15th 2003 at 6.08am.
As I don't want to post the whole thing again, the link to that post is below for anyone interested.
Here is the link |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 2:30 pm: | |
Hi Monty,
"As for Schwartz, it seems to me some are trying to fit the events of Berners street around his statement. That is disturbing. Please bare in mind he was the only witness to this assault (which may have never happend) to come forward. Therefore his testimony should be treated with respect but also with caution, and also the timing of the murder of Stride."
Now that is funny. That has been my whole point with the Schwartz discussion on the Stride thread all along (and which I've nearly been lynched for here on the Boards). Now suddenly someone picks up on it, when it's convenient...
If I understood you correctly, you said that Louis didn't see anyone in the street. Right. If we then choose to consider the interruption alternative, then that would suggest to me that that simply was a result of that the murderer was still in the yard! I think it's quite logical. Surely Louis should have seen someone otherwise, either running out of the yard or running along Berner Street.
OK. Then we -- as an alternative option -- may discount the interruption theory, and assume that the killer already had made his way to Commercial Street or Fairclough Street. The problem is, that we have no witness testimony whatsoever describing someone leaving the yard at that time, and apparently there were people around. Mrs Mortimer didn't see or hear anyone. Neither did any of the residents On berner Street or nearby. And Schwartz (if his alleged story is correct) didn't stick around to see what happened after the assault. The killer could of course have left the scene at an earlier stage. But even if that of course must be regarded as a possibility, it is completely unsupported.
Therefore I can only think of one -- in my view -- credible solution:
That the murderer still was in the yard and hid when he heard Diemschutz arrive. That is to me personally the most logical scenario.
After the so called Schwartz incident we only have one witness testimony regarding Berner Street, and that is from Louis Diemschutz -- and he didn't see anyone. After he went inside, there don't seem to have been anyone else in Berner Street, which would in turn make it suitable for the perpetrator to clear out, before the disturbance took place and the police arrived.
A probable reason for why Louis did see that something was lying in the yard, was that his horse reacted to it and refused to go any further. He even had to look at it more closely in order to see that it was a human being in the first place. The yard was without doubt very dark and one had to strike a match in order to see any details whatsoever. This is according to witness testimonies and what we can interpret from them.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 18, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 2:46 pm: | |
Does anyone know whether or not a wall could have been climbed further back in the yard, leading to another exit? Or was this yard completely surrounded by buildings?
Chris
|
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
Hi All,
Re Berner St etc.
I notice that several poster's are confusing Commercial Street with Commercial Road.
Commercial Street runs northward from Whitechapel High Street to Bishopsgate High Street,it passed in 1888 amongst others: Wentworth St, Thrawl St, Flower& Dean St, Fashion St, Dorset St and Spitalfields Market etc.
Whereas Commercial Road runs from the same juction as Commercial Street but eastwards from Whitechapel High Street towards Limehouse and Poplar. Berner Street (now Henrique Street) is the fourth street on the right (Thames side). Berner St was re-named Henrique Street after Sir Basil Henrique. Henrique with his brother opened a school in Berner Street in the late 1920's early 30's for young boys of poor Jewish families. He became a Magistrate and sat at Tower Hamlets Magistrates Court. He was always seen as a hard but fair man by those bought before him, they respected him and generally accepted his justice. In fact my own father was bought before him for a petty offence in the mid 1930's. Basil Henrique was a man of the East End and knew what the conditions were like from first hand experience, hence the respect in which he was held. He was knighted for his services to the people of the East End.
A&S |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1247
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 3:53 pm: | |
G'day Alan,
I read that old post of yours last night and I'm not sure that Stride's killer would have been fleeing the scene quite as quickly as you suggested. He just had to be out of sight because the police had to be sought first. Rushing away would have only drawn attention to him and he would have wanted to blend in as a innocent man.
Deimschutz and those early on the scene couldn't have known how long the body was there, and wouldn't have known that the killer was disturbed, although I agree that he would have wanted to get out of the immediate area as soon as possible. I believe he would have wanted to establish an alibi, that's why I believe he cleaned up quickly in Church Lane and headed to St. James Market, (near Mitre Square).
LEANNE |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Leanne, I knew you would say he went to the market
Chris
|
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 6:41 pm: | |
Hi Everybody,
Glenn...I believe the "unknown couple" seen by
James Brown...were at the end of Berner St. about the time of the murder. Provided they werent Stride and the killer...which I dont believe they were.
If the killer left before Louis arrived, he would have almost certainly been seen by Mrs. Mortimer, provided that her story of standing in the doorway till 1:00 is accurate.
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1301
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 7:21 pm: | |
Hi Paul,
"If the killer left before Louis arrived, he would have almost certainly been seen by Mrs. Mortimer, provided that her story of standing in the doorway till 1:00 is accurate."
Exactly my point as well.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:06 am: | |
G'day Chris,
Well I read that people were starting to fill the market and the surrounding area, and why would he not go where the most people were gathering and try to blend in?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1249
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:10 am: | |
G'day,
I read on the Victorian London Website that I keep mentioning, that fruit costermongers mostly went to St. James market to hire and load their carts.
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 930
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 5:15 am: | |
Leanne,
why would he not go where the most people were gathering and try to blend in?
Why would he though? He could have gone anywhere and yes maybe he did go to the market but I don't see why couldn't have gone to any number of places.
You say that people were starting to fill the market but I'd have thought that 1am in the morning would have been too early for all that.
Monty/Glenn,
The odd thing about no-one seeing anyone leave the yard or on the street is actually a plus side for both your points and can be used for both arguments, at least in my mind, but I agree with Glenn here. I think it tends to point to him still being in the yard.
Sarah |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 531
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 7:23 am: | |
The Star, 1st October, reports on James Blenkingsop, a night-watchman in St James Place.
About half past one a respectably dressed man came up to him and said ‘Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?’ ‘I didn’t take any notice,’ returned Blenkingsop. ‘I have seen some people pass.’
That doesn't sound much like something someone would have said in a place where people were starting to gather to me. |
