| Author |
Message |
    
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3242
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:48 am: | 
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By Ear and Eyes: The Whitechapel Murders, Jack the Ripper and the Murder of Mary Jane Kelly
Karyo Magellan
320 pages (September 1, 2005)
Longshot Publishing
ISBN: 0955024005
I'm assuming right now that this is a non-fiction book but have contacted the author for more details.
More info on Karyo Magellan can be found at:
http://www.karyom.com/karyo_magellan.htm
And his thoughts on the Whitechapel Murders can be found at:
http://www.karyom.com/The%20Whitechapel%20Murders.htm
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2062
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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I saw these two words by Karyo Magellan on his website and I thought 'Oh no, here we go again.':
'Empirical' & 'Pre-digested.'
It is him isn't it?
And then 320 pages?
No wonder he has called his publishing company 'Longshot'. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1919
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
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I enjoy your take on such jargon, AP
Natalie
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 676
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:13 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Not sure what you mean by "him," but I do believe you have interacted with him on another mailing list in the past.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 551
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:27 pm: |
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AP,
As long as we are considering specific words, I noticed that the book web-site had a statement that Jack the Ripper "terrorised the environs of Whitechapel. . . ."
That is surely a misuse of the word. A petty comment maybe, but darn it all you should strive for to be as accurate as possible on a web-site advertising your book.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2063
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
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Sorry folks, I obviously got the wrong end of the stick here, because I assumed it was Radka!
What a silly old fart I am.
Dan are you saying that it is 'Burgho' who has produced this volume?
If so, I await it with great interest, as the man who would be a bloodhound is a first rate writer.
Don, what web-site advertising what book?
I didn't even know there was a web-site advertising the 'Myth'... you can't buy it, so why advertise it?
I think I have never been guilty of using the word 'environs'
We here at Wolf World do not strive for mere accuracy, we strive for perfection.
And if you believe that...
My sincere apologies to Burgho if it is his volume.
Thanks, Natalie. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 679
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 4:22 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Karyo Magellan is definitely not David Radka. I don't think he's Burgho either (though I get lost on aliases sometimes). He did post at least a few times on that list Burgho and you are on about a year back or so.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 553
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
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Natalie and AP,
Sorry, but just got back here. Fot Heaven's sake, I was not suggesting it was AP who misused a word -- he rarely, if ever does, and if it ever happens I know it was only that foul Spanish brandy.
What I quoted was: . . . that he successfully terrorised the environs of Whitechapel in East London for several years. and that is on the author's web-site describing the By Ear and Eyes: . . . book.
As it is, I know Natalie that both you and AP are just this earthly side of perferct. Sorry for the confusion.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2068
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Don
I read your post again.
You are right, it was that foul brandy.
Damn my drinking habits!
Your original post was perfectly clear.
Sorry about that. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1924
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Perfect???Whats with you Don?A complete narcissist maybe but no way perfect!
Hey AP---if I get me a wolf suit could I come visit Wolf World?[it might just give me a bit of
time out from myself!]
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 355
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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AP Wolf has successfully terrorized the environs of the East End for several years? Shame on him!
'By Ears and Eyes'. Gee, wish I'd thought of that title. It should jump off the shelves. Wonder how many ear/nose/throat doctors will pick it up and be in for a shock when they turn to the middle section to find Mary Kelly (not) smiling at them. Ha ha. Seriously, though, let's give the author here a break until someone's actually read the book.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 389
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 9:19 am: |
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I read the contents of the second link yesterday and,I realize, several months ago,too.
Nothing earthshakingly new. MJK was not a Ripper victim based on a very handy chart that comapres MO,wounds and other data. Stride is in, Kelly out Tabram a no go.
Mags
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2490
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
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AP!
Loved this....and of course havent read it yet!.....just a matter of time!!!!
As to the Spanish Brandy.... have to defend it!!!!(especially Safeways.......or should be now say Morrisons!grrrrrrr)
Get to Brighton AP and there's a case waiting!!!!
Cheers
Suzi
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2070
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 1:22 pm: |
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Now that Suzi is the most tempting offer I have had since leaving Jack World for Wolf World.
I just might take you up on that... you do realise that it might cost you about 80 quid?
Natalie, my impression is that you are already an inhabitant of Wolf World, and that rather than donning a wolf suit you paint pictures of a rare perfection, and thus do you take a holiday from yourself. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1926
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Well now AP its my turn to say that you are making me blush and I must add that I consider praise from your good self to be praise indeed!
I hope you will enjoy the painting I am just finishing of the Whitechapel Bell Foundry"s yard!
I shall be posting it with another painting very soon. |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 3:48 pm: |
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I read the contents of the second link yesterday and,I realize, several months ago,too.
Nothing earthshakingly new. MJK was not a Ripper victim based on a very handy chart that comapres MO,wounds and other data. Stride is in, Kelly out Tabram a no go.
Hi Mags, I think you're spot on. I remember the posts.
AP, Casebook search username Burgho. After reading the second link (with the horrible background), Karyo Magellan may well be Burgho.
Take care,
Kevin
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2491
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
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AP will be a deal!!!!!!!
As I imagine that you come from somwhere close to moi........but that may just be a spoooooooooooooooky feeling......fancy a lift??
theres a safeways/Morrisons here before we start! he heeeeeeeeeeeeee
Suzix
'Win and flounder...........Lose and grin!'
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2072
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Natalie
no need to blush about elemental works that scratch at the essential images in our minds and help to reinforce those images by linking yesterday with today.
I always find your work to be poetry done with a fine brush.
Kevin, thanks for that, I do know Burgho has been very silent for a long time so you may well be right.
Suzi, if I come to Brighton, it will be in a canoe, and if you buy brandy I'll drink it. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2497
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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AP!
He he!....You're kakaking me up here!!!!!lol
OK we need one of those 'Industrial 'size ones
WITH a trailer!
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1932
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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You are too kind AP....but thankyou all the same!
Natalie |
A Wood
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
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"If so, I await it with great interest, as the man who would be a bloodhound is a first rate writer. "
AP, you may have seen photos of Andy Aliffe as Burgho and myself as Barnaby at the Whitechapel Society's Christmas bash; we thank you for your kind comments on our writing abilities, and urge you to turn your attention to the forthcoming September issue of Ripperologist, where we will both have articles published. If you come to Brighton you'll be able to pick up a copy yourself; two bloodhound-produced scribblings in one volume.
Adam
Ripperologist magazine |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3259
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2168
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
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Adam
you can urge me to turn my attention to anything you like, but I'm afraid that attention will always settle on the nearest bottle of decent brandy.
I still might make Brighton.
It depends on my lift.
The stair lift, I mean.
I don't like those stairs.
I haven't read a Ripper rag since 1994, but I suppose I should make an effort. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3493
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
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Magellan has a nicely designed website, though, I must admit. Quite tasty.
As for the book, I just hope the name of the publishing company ("Longshot") isn't illustrious for the book's content.
AP,
You just simply must make it to Brighton. Meeting you in flesh and brandy would be a blast.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 551
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
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Bit of a bizarre cover for this one, isn't it? It looks like a TASCHEN publication (arty and erotic publisher if you didn't know).
AP - having just bought a Camille Wolff on eBay (I noticed you didn't go for that one!) I shall be bringing it to Brighton and I expect you to change the habit of a lifetime and - secretly, of course - sign mine.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 303
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
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Dear Everyone,
I've just had a quick look at the websites mentioned above and what I have read doesn't bode well for this book. For example the author talks about:
'twenty-two signature or possible signature components were identified and the ten most significant of these were as follows:
Each victim was a prostitute
Four out of five victims were killed outdoors in the street or in a yard
Four out of five victims received a fatal cut to the left side of the neck
With the exception of one recorded external stab wound to one victim all knife wounds were cuts, and stabbing was not a feature of the Ripper murders
There was mutilation or attempted mutilation involving the removal of organs from the body in four out of five cases and in the one in which there was no mutilation it seems that the killer was disturbed before he had the opportunity to progress
Organs were removed from the scene in three out of four cases........
And so on.
Unfortunately what he is referring to here is by and large nothing to do with a killers signature but more to do with MO.
Put simply the MO is what is done to achieve the required effect, in this case a dead victim.
Signature is something entirely different. Signature is what is done to the body over and above what is required to achieve that effect.
For example, a killer stalks women on their own at night at kills them by stabbing in a darkened alley. That is MO. And this might change. If the killer finds a pistol is a more effective weapon than a knife he might use that ( Son of Sam)
After he has killed the killer arranges the body in a certain pose with a flower stuck in her mouth. That is signature.
Bob |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
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Bob
Have just read this and have to agree ....although..
I agree that a SIGNATURE is usually left by chummy to be found after the event aka the flower in the mouth or whatever
But the MO is something that rarely varies,except as you say in Son of Sam an unusual character in many ways though 'eh?...I find it difficult to se our man varying from the knife to poison (Oh No dont go into the Cream!) or to any other form of 'dispatch' to be honest....this seemed to be his 'way' and I think he probably stuck to it
Why he chose that may become another thread but it seems to me to be his preferred MO and maybe something he could
a)Use with dexterity
or maybe
b) something he could be seen with(!) impunity
or c)
A Rogue Doctor/ gynaecologist with a loose bag of instruments and 'knives' that peppered the pavements of Whitechapel only to be picked up at a later date!!!!!!!
Carry on
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2582
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
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Philip
I agree about the cover!!! Very Taschen!!!!!!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2583
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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Just been reading back on this 'site' too.............Surely the photography of the eyes(!) wasn't at Annie's inquest I'm sure it wasn't!!!
Have to check that but sure it was Mary or Kate!
Suzi
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 553
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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Yo Suzi.
The 'eyes' photo was indeed an MJK rumour - and let's be honest about this, even if it did exist today, if it wasn't labelled as such how would we ever know what it was?
Bob - I am watching that Turnbull. Again.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3514
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
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Yo Suzi,
Sorry to barge in, but Bob is correct.
The MO usually DOES change, since it is learnt behaviour, includes experimentation etc. MO is the method used for the killing and is not personal in the same way as a signature.
A MO changes and evolves due to circumstances on the crime scene and/or gained experience.
There are loads of examples of killers who have changed their MO:s (and have done so quite drastically), in fact, those who hasn't are quite few.
It is the signature that is less inclined to change (since it is generally referred to as the imprint of the psychological needs and compulsions of the killer), but even that is not written in plaster.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2589
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 1:19 pm: |
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Glenn!
You know how to live dangerously!!! hehe! Right I agree with what you say .............A change of MO does of course happen to good or bad effect.
Did 'plaster' take over from stone then, or is it some form of 'sculptural slip'? Oh well will look in later
Suzi |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 432
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
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I got an e-mail from the publisher saying the book is available. In fact, I've ordered mine and it's in the post now. For those not living in England, you should know that it's much cheaper to order this from the publisher than from Amazon.co.uk. If you've preordered it there, as I did, go cancel it and order from the publisher. You can do so at this URL: http://www.longshotpublishing.co.uk/Purchase.htm
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 131
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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Hi all,
sometimes you accept things and then you read or hear another opinion that leaves you puzzled.
To me it has always been clear that one can see Kelly's right femur in the photo of the full body.
On page 146 of Magellan's book however I just read the following:
"The crime scene images of Mary Jane Kelly's corpse may also be misleading since at first glance it seems as though the shaft of her right femur has been stripped of skin and muscle. However on closer examination this is not the case and what appears to be exposed clean bone is in fact a strip of skin along the top of the thigh - several cuts can clearly be seen in the skin."
I include the relevant part of the photo for easier judgement:
Up to the chapter about Kelly I was following the author's reasoning and deductions very well, I thought of them as another but nevertheless justified way of interpreting reports and statements of the time.
With Kelly's chapter the problems started for me, one of them being the above statement.
Would that bone shine as white as we imagine it from clean skeletons as we know them from biology lessons? Or is this skin indeed?
What do you think?
Christian |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 992
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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Hi Christian,
Well, I think we have to go with what Dr. Bond said, as he was there and had a better view. "The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone..." And then since denuded isn't a really common word, we verify its meaning by looking it up and get "stripped of all covering."
Now of course I suppose it's still possible that it wouldn't look white when uncovered, and that there'd be some gore or something on it instead... but then think about when you get some cut of meat at the market that has a bone... it's still basically white or light-colored when you pull stuff off of it.
I think what Karyo Magellan sees as cuts into a flap of skin are actually bits of darker colored matter sticking up in front of the bone and not cuts into anythiing.
The main thing though is trying to imagine what sort of weird cut you'd have to make on a leg to have that white part be skin hanging over -- it wouldn't be a simple cut, that's for sure, it would have to do some pretty wicked curves.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 443
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 9:27 pm: |
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I agree with Christian in that the problems with the book (for me) truly began with the Kelly section. I don't swallow that Coles & McKenzie were Ripper victims, though Magellan certainly puts forth the most persuasive argument to date on this issue. I thought the majority of the book was excellent, fresh, and should be read by every student of the case.
As far as Kelly's femur, this brings up an issue explored thoroughly in Robert McLaughlin's recent release, 'The First JTR Victim Photographs'. Which version of the Kelly photo Magellan drew his observation from, and what generation, size, etc. the photo he studied was, would determine how he viewed the scene. If we're all looking at the exact same copy of the photo we're more likely to see the same thing. Otherwise, we may very well not. In the end, Bond was pretty clear on this point, as Dan pointed out, so there shouldn't be much need for debate. Where there IS and probably will remain debate is on Nick Warren's idea that the femur was hacked with something similar to a hatchet. I don't see this, nor does Bond appear to have noticed this, so I'm inclined to believe the Ripper used one weapon only in Kelly's murder, that being a knife.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 547
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 9:49 pm: |
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A machete would be a good weapon to both cut and chop with. The base could also be used as a pummel.
Stan |
Barnaby
Sergeant
Username: Barnaby
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 1:16 am: |
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Burgho? My buddy is involved in book publishing? He has come a long way from those dog shows in Brighton. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 869
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 6:40 am: |
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Agreement with Dan and Tom here (Dan & Tom - a great name for a couple of Whitechapel pick-pocketing scamps...)
I understood that bone when first exposed had a yukky biege quality to it, which may still show up as white in a sepia image (I've also been told that no photos were sepia to start with and the ageing process has turned them thus - is that true?).
I also don't believe for a moment that we are not seeing the femur. That's no more logical than the strip of intestines haning from the ceiling discussed a few weeks ago (that was actually the chink in the door).
As you know, Rob's book seems to be the best guide as to what we are seeing as if something isn't definite then Rob will say so. I've discussed some things in the photos with Rob myself and he makes a very persuasive arguement.
I also think the wounds were made with one weapon. I just don't see the validity of brand new theories so far removed from the event by employing modern interpretations. There's a big difference between utilising scientific advancement and applying Victorian attitudes to present-day attitudes.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
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Thanks for your input!
Dan,
yes,Bond said "denuded" and this is why I doubt Magellan's view as well, but you never know...
Tom,
thanks for putting exactly my thoughts about the book in better words.
"...so there shouldn't be much need for debate."
I really hope so, as I don't like those going round in circles. But I'm not sure if a "devil's advocate" would give in that quickly! After all, every other point on previous pages was at least very well thought, so why this sudden slip on a cheap topic like this?
What about the sudden bending of the bone (see arrow on pic below.)Would a bone look like this?
And: Don't you have to "peel" the periosteum to let the bone appear that white?
To make it clear: I do not 'believe' it's not a bone. But Magellan's way of seeing it stroke me and I'd like to be sure. I don't put it quickly away because in the chapters before he proved to think thoroughly.
Although he seems to pick what ever suits him in each case from contradicting statements of Bond/Phillips.
Another point that I felt uncomfortable with was that he first points out, that gaslights were mere glowworms in the darkness, but in Kelly's chapter I read, that the lamp opposite 13 Miller's court could've spent sufficient light to see in that room (doors never close completely, he says).
I should add, that I haven't finished the book yet.
Christian
 |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 7:11 am: |
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Phil,
sorry your post came while I was typing mine.
As said, I agree with you that it's a bone.
Nevertheless, I don't think Magellan made cheap reasoning in the chapters before (although debatable as all reasoning) so I was surprised to see what conclusions he suddenly comes up with.
Christian |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 995
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 7:54 am: |
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Hi Christian-
Would a bone look like that? Here's an illustration of a human femur rotated in two dimensions to approximate the position of MJK's leg (although in three dimensions the bone would be at an angle pointing away from the camera some, so would have some amount of foreshortening going on):
 }
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1677
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 8:06 am: |
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Hi Dan, Christian, et al.
Dan, I think the illustration of the femur that you show is consistent with what we see in the photograph. I trust Dr. Bond when he wrote, "The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone..." His is a medico-scientific assessment and as such should be trusted. Also the fact that the evident white expanse is lower than we would expect, judging by the visible leg below the right knee, shows indeed that the skin, fat, muscles, and sinew have been stripped away just as Dr. Bond states when he says "denuded." I have not yet read Magellan's book but disagree with his assertion that this is not bone. We should be wary of writers who discard clear, unambiguous statements by medical or police witnesses, especially a medical expert such as Dr. Bond who is writing to make things clear to the police, Home Office, and other authorities.
Best regards
Chris George
(Message edited by Chrisg on November 09, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
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Dan, Chris G,Phil and Tom
Thanks again for your answers.
They strengthened me in my opinion.
Christian |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 9:45 am: |
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Hi Christian,
There's a contemporary source to support Magellan. Let me play devil's advocate and cite Bond's assistant Hebbert, as preserved in A System of Legal Medicine. I forget what year this was published, 1894 I think.
The skin and much of the muscular tissue, not, however, exposing the bone, had been slashed away from the anterior aspect of the thighs as far as the knees.
S. Gouriet Ryan argued in a couple of articles that Bond's report, as we have it, is incomplete. That doesn't really explain this apparent inconsistency, but since Hebbert provides added detail that Bond doesn't, I think we should be open to the idea that we're not quite in possession of the full medical facts in Kelly's case. I believe Debra Arif posted a full excerpt of MJK in ASLM on some other thread.
I've always taken that to be bone, however. |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
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Hi David,
that's interesting!
Although I still tend to believe it being the bone, it still shows, that Magellan's deductions are worth to be dealt with, aren't they?
Christian |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
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Me,
"[What we see is] the front of the thigh bone stripped bare of flesh, which is thinner at the front of the thigh than at the back, which is still attached to the bone in the picture."
Yuk, what an inelegant sentence! What I mean is:
"We see the thigh bone stripped of flesh at the front. The bulkier tissue at the back of the femur hasn't been cut away from the bone."
... or something like that. (Just for clarity's sake) |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Christian,
Interesting observation Magellan makes, although Dr Bond's testimony clearly states that the right thigh was "denuded in front to the bone".
What I think we see in this picture is indeed the front of the thigh bone stripped bare of flesh, which is thinner at the front of the thigh than at the back, which is still attached to the bone in the picture. As far as the front of the thigh is concerned, the insertion point of the femur into the "arch" of flesh remaining above the knee is about right
The portion of the femur nearest the pelvis has a bump on it congruent with viewing the greater and lesser trochanters (a pair of swellings at the top of the femur) almost head-on. Bear in mind that the thigh is pointing away from us (Dr Bond: "at an obtuse angle to the pubes [sic]") towards the wall, and the perspective starts to make sense.
The "cuts" that Magellan sees are probably flecks of muscle from the lower thigh that were either still attached to the underside of the femur or had "flopped" against the bone and stuck there.
The bone really would come up that clean - as you can probably confirm by simulating the scene with a leg of lamb, if that's not too extravagant or weird. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 872
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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Hi David
An intelligent and well-reasoned arguement as always.
However, I would be far more inclined to back Bond's contemporary report than one of his assistant published 6 years later. This may be the sort of thing that gave rise to the myths such as 'intestines strung like Christmas decorations around the walls...'
Chris (G) - I think what you said is what I was saying but in a slightly clearer way.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 11:55 am: |
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Hi Philip,
Yeah, the intestines are a bit much, aren't they? Isn't that a derivation of Inspector Moore, who is pretty sensational all on his own? He told the Pall Mall Gazette in 1889:
"This was about the worst of the murders," said the inspector when they reached Dorset-street. "He cut the skeleton so clean of flesh that when I got here I could hardly tell whether it was a man or a woman. He hung the different parts of the body on nails and over the backs of chairs. It must have taken him an hour and a half in all. And when he was ready to go he found the door was jammed and had to make his escape through the larger of those two windows."
Okay, Moore seems off, but it's interesting that ASLM, a medical textbook, is using Kelly to illustrate the point that in cases of extreme mutilation, an examination of the skeleton is sometimes necessary to determine sex. ASLM, like Moore, is saying that had it not been for the organs found in the room, they may have had to strip Mary Kelly down to the skeleton to determine her sex. So when you look at this next section, as S. Gouriet wrote, it seems to echo Moore in this sense, but less sensationally. "In this case, to be sure, all the organs except the heart were found scattered about the room, and showed the sex without doubt." (63). The book is right about the heart, maybe they're right about organs scattered about the room (which needn't necessarily mean strewn about).
I would presume that Hebbert provided his detailed material from notes and not memory. Of course, I would be shy about advocating Moore, but I do think Hebbert might give us pause when we take into account our knowledge of what the Ripper did to Kelly. S. Gouriet Ryan's articles are interesting, especially the second one he did. Maybe one day he'll offer them to Casebook.
Whatever the case was, I agree that it sure looks like a bone in the crime scene photograph.
Dave |
