| Author |
Message |
    
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 5:55 am: |       |
I have some questions that I was hoping people may be able to answer for me. I put this in another thread but no-one answered and there was so much going on in that thread that I put this in another thread.
1) Does anyone know where Joe lived before he met Mary?
2) Does anyone know the pub where Joe and Mary drank together on the night/day they met?
3) Was it the night or day they met?
4) What did Joe's job involve?
5) What was the name of the first place they stayed which was on George Street?
I think that's all for now.
Many thanks,
Sarah |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 243
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 1:49 am: | |
Sarah, Problem with asking anything about Mary and Joe, is that we are left with only his word, and we know that most of his statements concerning his life with Mary were false.
He was so vague in his wording that it sounds more like an astrology reading than the facts of a man who lost the love of his life after having known her for a year and a half.
Of the questions you have asked, the one only that can be answered for certain is #4...
As a fish porter, Joe would have met the ship at the dock, taken a load of frozen or dried fish and made his way to one of the local markets. His pay would have been based on the weight of fish he delivered.
Shannon |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 900
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 2:49 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
According to Bruce Paley by 1861, the Barnetts were living in Cartwright Street';
* In 1871 he lived at 24 1/2 Great Pearl Street, Whitechapel;
* In 1878 he lived on Osborne Street, whitechapel;
* In 1887 he lived on George Street, with Mary Kelly;
* In 1887 he lived in Paternoster Court, Dorset Street, with Mary Kelly;
* In 1887-8 he lived on Brick Lane, Whitechapel with Mary Kelly;
* Then he lived in Room 13 Millers Court, with Mary Kelly.
I'll look at your other questions tonight.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 901
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:38 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
* 'Does anyone know the pub where Joe and Mary drank together on the day/night they met?'
Joe and Mary met on Commercial Street. The 'Britannia' was at the corner of Commercial Street and Dorset Street. On another corner of Commercial Street was 'The Ten Bells'.
* 'Was it in the night or day they met?
Barnett never told the Coroner what time of day they met.
* 'What did Joe's job involve?'
An orange seller had to go to St. James Market, near Mitre Square, or to Spitalfields Market to fill up his barrow, before he hit the streets. He may have hired one of John McCarthy's barrows.
* 'What was the name of the first place they stayed which was on George Street?'
I cant help you there.
LEANNE
|
Sarah Long
Police Constable
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 6:24 am: | |
Thank you for your help. I'm a bit confused though. Was he sacked from being a fish porter in summer 1888 and then became an orange seller? Did this pay less?
It doesn't really matter to me about the absolute facts, just what Joe had said would be ok. I know this probably sounds stupid but I'm trying to write a fiction story about Joe being JTR and this is just research. I've only written the first paragraph so far. I've written many stories but obviously never tried to publish them, I wouldn't even know how. |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 244
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 6:41 am: | |
Sarah, yes after Joe lost his porters' license at Billingsgate fish market in the summer of 1888 he had to take what ever odd jobs were available.
Shannon |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 903
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:04 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
An orange seller earned a lot less than a hard working fish porter, and earnings weren't guaranteed. He lost his fish porter's license 2 weeks prior to Martha Tabram's murder, but I haven't formed an opinion as to whether he was involved in hers. Her murder added to Emma Smith's assault and death, could have set a phsychopath's mind into believing that it was OK to kill low women.
Fish porters could earn as much as 3 pounds per week. He wouldn't have earned much more than 6s3d as a fruit porter. With 20 shillings per pound, work that out!
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Police Constable
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:05 am: | |
Ok, thank you Shannon. I thought so. You don't happen to know when he got the job at the orange seller by any chance? It doesn't really matter if you don't.
Leanne,
The place he was living at in Osbourne Stree before he met Mary, do you happen to know if it was a lodging house?
Many thanks,
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 907
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 4:19 pm: | |
G'day Sarah,
Bruce Paley's 'The Simple Truth', contains over ten years worth of research into Joseph Barnett's life. It's getting heaps of credit in my book. I think it's out of print, but is there any way you can order a secondhand copy? The last time I needed a fresh copy, I ordered a secondhand one through Amazon. It arrived in about 3 weeks and was in excellent condition.
Our book has new research, but I'm hesitant to discuss it all before it's published! It won't be long!
I'll give you what Bruce Paley said about Osborne Street, because it's already out: 'Barnett lived on Osborne Street, just near to where Smith had been attacked. George Yard, where Tabram's body was found, was just one street to the west of Osborne Street, and just south of George Street where Barnett and Mary Kelly had first lived together in 1887.'
He used Billingsgate porters licences as a source for that information.
I really want to help!
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 5:51 am: | |
Thank you for your help guys. Might see if it's in my local library before buying it Leanne as I'm a bit low on cash at the mo (isn't everyone!!).
Regards,
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 908
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 6:57 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
When I got my fresh copy, I didn't toss my old copy. The cover is torn, it's held together with sticky tape and a few pages of the index are missing. It is still very readable. Do you want it, until you can find a good copy? Amazon wouldn't even sell it as a secondhand copy. If I had a postal address, I'd send it to you....as a second-hand Christmas present. Ha ha ha! Click on my name and send me an email if you want it. If you don't, it's destined for the bin!
LEANNE
(Message edited by Leanne on November 19, 2003) |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 7:40 am: | |
One other question. Did Joe need a knife in either of these jobs? If so, why? |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 384
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:01 pm: | |
Ignore
Monty
(Message edited by monty on November 19, 2003) |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 385
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:02 pm: | |
Sarah,
Check out Vipers excellent dissertation Hey Joe! Your Porter Story Sounds Fishy!.
It up on the Dissertations under suspect.
It may help you with your questions.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 5:01 am: | |
Thanks Monty.  |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 912
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:38 am: | |
G'day,
MONTY: This is what I can't understand about that dissertation: Viper wrote the line 'If Barnett were a licenced porter, he'd have described himself as such.' Why so? Further down, Viper gave Barnett's actual statement to the police as: "I am a porter in Billingsgate Market, but I have been out of employment for 3 or 4 months."
Another line says: 'There is nothing to indicate that porters of any grade were expected to gut fish.' But he described a 'bobber' before that as a porter who was sent out of the market with fish to distribute to local customers. Couldn't a 'bobber' have learnt how to gut a fish for a shop?
I don't think it's a very good dissertation at all! I'll read it again and try to understand it!
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:44 am: | |
I was getting confused on it too Leanne. Especially about the gutting of fish. I'd have thought he would have done this or at least know how it was done. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 389
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
LEANNE, Sarah,
G’Day,
To be honest it has been a while since I mused over Vipers work. I shall look at it in its entirety tonight.
I know you wouldn’t think Vipes work any good. It throws into question Joes dexterity with a knife. But it doesn’t mean he didn’t know how to use one. I would assume that Fishmongers gutted the fish (though I can imagine that’s not the case with ALL Fishmongers) as they would not want to waste any innards….gotta get your moneys worth you know.
If I remember correctly viper was hinting that Joe would have fetched and carried the fish. It begs the question to me of why would he need a license to do that? It aint rocket science.
It seems he had been a Porter for donkeys years so Im sure he’d have picked up something…monkey see and all that.
Like I said earlier, I shall have another gander at vipers dissertation and let you know my views…if indeed you want them.
Monty
PS LEANNE, Whats with this Pommie bashing obsession over your neck of the woods? I thought we’re supposed to be the wingers !!!!
|
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 917
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 4:39 pm: | |
G'day,
MONTY: I printed out Vipers work for about the 100th time, and tried to read it in bed. I ended up throwing it on the floor and understood nothing! He was obviously just trying to under-mine Bruce Paley's book, probably without even reading Paley's book first!
Viper wrote: 'And here's the official record of his inquest testimony on November 12th:- "I reside at 24 and 25 New Street Bishopsgate which is a common lodging house. I am a labourer and have been a fish porter. I now live..." (my underlining)
'Note that in his statement Barnett uses the present tense,' How does 'HAVE BEEN' mean he was using the present tense?
I'll keep reading it to try and understand it!
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 918
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 4:47 pm: | |
G'day Monty,
What 'Pommie bashing'? That went out ages ago! Then came the Italians, because they made up the majority of the immigrant population. Then came the Asians. Now we are learning to accept the fact that we are a multicultural nation! We can't handle being the minority!
The 'Pommy bashing' thing, probably came out of the convict days!
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 925
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 3:51 am: | |
G'day Monty,
I just watched the news on the tele, and now understand what you mean by 'Pommie bashing', it's to do with the Rugby!!!!!!
Well, we're just following tradition I guess!
GO THE WALLABIES!!!
 LEANNE
|
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 49
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 5:31 am: | |
I've never been interested in rugby but since it's the final - COME ON ENGLAND!! 
Wahoo!! |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 397
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 5:31 am: | |
LEANNE
Not had time to read Vipers work. Will do at the weekend...after the rugger !!
Speaking of which. Really enjoyed hearing 'swing low' in the midst of YOUR game with NZ. You must have enjoyed that.
Also like to hear the Aussies slegding...it means you fear us !!
Sweet Chariot Monty
|
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 183
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Hmmm, was really enjoying the rugby and then...
     
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 940
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 4:00 pm: | |
G'day,
What's the matter, is everyone too frightened to say something? Go ahead, have your fun! I follow Rugby League, more than Union anyway!
LEANNE |
