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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Maybrick, James » The Diary Controversy » Ink » Archive through October 28, 2005 « Previous Next »

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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1790
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 2:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For years now it has made perfect sense to come here and write concerning those still praying for some old hoax explanation or mythical old hoax scenario, as they came up with pathetic dancing prayers and excuses about line after line in the diary's text:

"The day that they can all do without myth or muck - or both - to aid their arguments, is the day when they may earn a bit more respect for their beliefs.

Right now I can only shake my head at the rubbish being talked by some, and worse, tolerated by others who not only should know better; they do know better."


I'm sad, now, that I never wrote those words.

But I'm glad someone has.

--John


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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 1560
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 2:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John

Well, at least Caroline Morris has confirmed again that Robert Smith "is willing to release the diary for more testing no strings attached".

So if anyone is willing to pay the hundred dollars for the thing to be tested for chloroacetamide by the University of Georgia, all this blather can be silenced for once and for all.

Any takers? Or is nobody really bothered enough to stump up fifty quid? That's probably 10p (or less) for every hour that's been devoted to pointless, endless, circuitous, poisonous discussion of the issue on these boards ...

Chris Phillips

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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1791
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris,

Hell, I'll write a check for fifty bucks right now if you'll write one for the other fifty.

The hundred dollars is not the problem.

Is it?

--John
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 1562
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John

if you'll write one for the other fifty.

I suggest you ask someone who's not already convinced it's a modern fake.

Sadly, I'm not about to contribute towards the "Spherical Earth Research Fund" either ...

Chris Phillips

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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2990
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes it is.

John,
if you can raise a hundred quid and get the logistics togther i know for a fact Robert Smith would be only too happy.

Don't lets get stupid here. The University of Georgia, do they agree anyhow.

Where did that come from,

What did i miss.
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2991
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi everyone,

your going to love me for saying this but..

First off, we should stop acting like whether the diary is or is not tested and what that may or may not show is somehow Carolineís fault. Now I'm not going to sit here and pretend I think everything Caroline says is something I agree with. Nor pretend we see eye to eye on diary matters. We all know there are a lot of things we disagree on. This is not the point. The clarity of the tests and the possibility of further tests is the main issue here it seems. And itís not something Caroline has a direct influence on. She can't help what ways of interpreting things there are, whatever we think to her ways on interpreting those same said things. Whatever we think of the validity or reliability of certain tests. Letís not have a b**ch fest at the poor woman - it only makes things worse. In other words it is not helping anyone.

Now then, with all that out the way lets say some other things here before we all die of old age and are still having this same discussion and believe me we will still be having this same discussion in ten, twenty, fifty years time, unless we accept that thereís a difference between being productive and proactive and moaning because its fun to argue with people or whatever.

James Maybrickís not gaining anything at all from us keeping this silly and often pointless discussion alive for no real reason other than, well is there even one?

Now you all know how I get about making up evidence to fit up innocent people. And thatís what I think has happened here with this diary. Its one thing to accuse someone of being Jack thinking you have evidence and truly believing that evidence as valid and solid, its quite another to just make it up for no reason. Itís quite a nasty thing to do is it not, to frame a dead man for murder? After all dead men can't defend themselves. So, here we are with clearly more spare time than is strictly good for us, writing the same old crap day after day.

Maybe, just maybe, we could be a little more productive. I don't know say look into some testing.

You know what Roberts email address is I know for a fact, and I mean fact, that he's willing to test the thing no strings attached. I will happily forward any suggestions to him.

Now we know why things have to be this way don't we. Itís our own fault.

So letís just get on with doing anything even remotely worthwhile.

If I do say so myself somewhat hypercritically.

You guys know I like you but honestly sometimes these things just need saying don't they?

I don't mean to speak out of turn.

Jenni

"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1792
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni,

First off, I'm not sure where the University of Georgia came from or what Chris had in mind specifically, but I can promise you a hundred dollars if that's the only thing stopping this book from being properly and thoroughly tested by a reputable lab. Of course, it's not the only thing -- but let me know if it ever becomes necessary.

As for working with the owner, etc. -- some people might need to learn the same lesson two or three times, but I don't. I've already had my experience with being the subject of private e-mails pimping scandalous and badly conducted web-research on me and with legal threats and with pointless and irrelevant accusations about my credentials, etc. I don't need to be hit with the same bat twice. If someone else wants a go, I won't complain.

Secondly, no one is blaming Caroline for the diary's still not being properly tested after over a decade. Some of us are attacking the position she is mouthing concerning the owner's ultimate responsibility for making damn sure the proper tests get done and the conflicts get solved, especially if he's going to allow his diary to be published in a book claiming the real James killed people in England and America.

You say you object most strongly to the real James Maybrick's reputation being run through the muck in all of this. Well, allowing for the diary to come out in a new edition with such nonsense in it while not bothering to make sure the document is thoroughly and completely tested is scandalously irresponsible behavior and demonstrates a twisted set of priorities -- new editions of unevidenced silliness come first, proper and rigorous testing later. That's just sad.

Robert's had the book for over ten years and he hasn't even bothered to find out once and for all what is and isn't in the ink, despite the tests being apparently simple and inexpensive.

You can't blame people for noticing that simple historical fact.

But as I've said, the check is already signed.

Thanks for the pep talk -- let's see what actually happens in the end.

--John
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 1563
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni

The University of Georgia, do they agree anyhow.

Where did that come from,

What did i miss.



"Mr Poster" posted various fees that are advertised for gas/liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry:
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=145998#POST145998

I did pick the cheapest, but really none of them is that expensive.

And you're right about that "poor woman" Caroline Morris and the appalling way we've treated her. I can hardly see to type for the tears. If you never hear from me again it will be because I've killed myself out of remorse ...

(Just kidding!)

Chris Phillips



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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally

Post Number: 1076
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm..seems like an awful lot of ink for very few tests.

I wonder if there was any held in reserve anywhere?


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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2992
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok John,

what is it exactly you are telling me would happen in an ideal world?

What tests are there that you want to see done. Because i for one would love to know.

Jenni

(Message edited by jdpegg on October 25, 2005)
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2993
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,
you know damn well thats not what I'm saying!! I'll email you later.

Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2994
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ps John,
I'll email you as well.

don't lets get pissy at me!! lol

Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 2231
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Maria,

The labs only took micro dots from the diary.

Which labs? Evidence please.

Today it is clear to see on the paper where the ink blotches once were, and are now no more.

The diary doesn't have it. And apparently, it doesn't matter, because some of the better books are 'best sellers' not yours of course. But so long it keeps on yielding money to all the people who feed from these 'Diary' it doesn't matter does it?

Our book was never going to be a best seller, because we chose to tell the story warts and all, and refused to indulge in any sort of speculation. By the Ďbetterí books, I assume you must mean Shirleyís or the late Paul Feldmanís, with which I am not and never have been involved.

What do you mean by Öit keeps on yielding money to all the people who feed from these ĎDiaryíÖ?

Who is currently making any money at all from promoting the diary, apart from Shirley and her latest publisher? I just want to be sure newcomers donít get the erroneous impression that Ďall the peopleí means more than two or three.

Hi Chris P,

Well, of course I didn't "warn you what I'd say" - yet again, that's just your own silly little spin on things.

Good to hear. I take it you wonít be using the Ďdegradingí (in more ways than one) excuse then if Ė contrary to your expectations - no chloroacetamide is found.

So if anyone is willing to pay the hundred dollars for the thing to be tested for chloroacetamide by the University of Georgia, all this blather can be silenced for once and for all.

Any takers? Or is nobody really bothered enough to stump up fifty quid? That's probably 10p (or less) for every hour that's been devoted to pointless, endless, circuitous, poisonous discussion of the issue on these boards ...

I suggest you ask someone who's not already convinced it's a modern fake.


And there we have it. The very person who claimed on these boards that AFIís results can be relied on, and you now admit you are not Ďbothered enoughí to actually try and prove it. Yet you expect others, who may not be making a single claim of their own, to do your dirty work for you.

Your claim means nothing in that case, because you canít be bothered to support it with more than the useless ĎI am convinced, so trust meí line, that you so disapprove of if you think others are using it.

Love,

Caz
X
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2996
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Seriously now this is starting to bother me

Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1793
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 1:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni,

For starters, I'd like to see the simple tests Lars has outlined to determine what's in the ink take place. They should have taken place years ago, if only to learn the truth and settle the conflicts that we have in the current results. Any self-respecting and responsible owner of such a document would have done at least that much before putting his diary in new editions of a book charging James with murders both in England and the US.

And honestly, I wasn't being the least bit pissy -- just giving you the facts.

Caroline then writes about her book which did not indulge in any speculation. I'm not going to cite from its jacket again -- I'm afraid I won't be heard over the din of so many experts now claiming that the book might be real.

Seriously, though, the check is still here on my desk. We know the tests are simple and affordable. We know who has owned the book for over ten years (making sure it's been in book form and for sale during all that time, of course, even if he wasn't making sure it was being thoroughly and properly tested to learn all we can about it).

We know what everyone here thinks already.

Let's watch and see what does and does not actually happen.

--John



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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 5:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Caroline

So you did this book for charity then ?

No. I think what happened here was that it didn't yield as much in terms of credibility or financially. The plan sort of backfired !

At the moment, the diary seems like God, everyone knows it exists but only a few have seen it We only have your word that there isn't any more ink to spare.

Jenni:

It is a good job we haven't traced Maybrick's descendants. Imagine what they will do if they find out that this lot are slandering their ancestor. A law-suit ?

Just imagine that Melvin Harris saw this book in 1992 and conducted tests which he was asked to do...and we all know the story... don't we? how old were you in 1992? I'm sorry Jenni but you just don't know the background of any of this...

The fact that along comes an impressionable 19 year old who hasn't a clue about anything... Not even what appropriate chemical tests should be done in the diary... and this "valuable" book is handed to her to conduct free tests ?

When people with a lot more experience in research have been turned away in the past. When suddenly... don't tell me, they release the diary !! Were tests ever done on the Chlorocitamide ??? NO. Or anything that remotely matters? NO. I'm sorry dear, but its not that simple.

I think you will have to read Melvin Harris' THE TRUE FACE OF JACK THE RIPPER. And really talk to the people that were here long before you, some of the very best have left a long time ago and some of them sadly... have passed on.

-Maria







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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 2232
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Maria,

Yes, actually, I did do the book for charity - not that it's any business of yours.

And you have a very nasty mind, and you don't know me at all. The 'plan' did not backfire. The plan was to tell the story so far to anyone who wanted to listen.

I don't care whether you believe me or not about the ink blotches. I was just correcting your guesswork - as you say, you haven't seen the diary, have you? If you wanted to see it, why didn't you ask its owner - politely - before making horribly wrong claims about it?

Maybrick hasn't any direct descendants - his son died accidentally after drinking cyanide while he was engaged to be married, and his daughter chose not to have children because of the Maybrick stigma.

But surviving Maybricks and other more distant relatives were traced, and Paul Feldman even called a family 'conference' back in 1994 (you can see a photo in Ripper Diary, which only involves looking at the picture section so it won't tax anyone too much).

According to Shirley 'the descendants gathered that day were enthralled', and 'Brian Maybrick too was enjoying every minute and was, by now, himself convinced of the Diary's pedigree'.

The late Brian Maybrick was the grandson of James Maybrick's first cousin John, and he was happy to help Paul Feldman with the family research.

Perhaps you should actually have read the books you are so critical of, then we wouldn't be able to joke:

When does Maria get the wrong end of the stick?

Every time she posts.

You've got some nerve telling Jenni she doesn't know the background; she's got more diary facts in her little toe than you have in your head.

Who asked Melvin to conduct tests in 1992? I didn't know he was a professional analyst.

Dr Eastaugh was invited to be Shirley's chief scientific adviser and by October 1992 he had conducted two analyses, having taken samples of ink from several parts of the diary, and concluded that it is a permanent blue-black type such as might have been used from Victorian to modern times. He also advised that Quink contains relatively little iron, whereas the diary ink contains 'significant amounts'.

In fact, Eastaugh reported that the diary ink:

...has clearly not matched any of the modern inks tested.

But he, like Joseph Barabe of McCrone, was not hopeful that the diary could ever be dated with pinpoint accuracy:

In fact it is just such a document as the Diary which highlights the fact that scientists and historians lack any way of directly assessing the absolute chronological age of such items.

Were tests ever done on the Chlorocitamide ??? NO. Or anything that remotely matters? NO.

Blimey, what have you been reading? Certainly not the recent discussions about the merits of the AFI and Leeds tests for - wait for it - chloroacetamide!!

Why do you praise Melvin up to the hilt for getting a book published that includes his own unproven assertions about the diary, and yet you condemn a book that simply tells the story, and you condemn the other diary books that, just like Melvin's, contain assertions of the equally not proven but opposite kind - and it's clear that you have not absorbed much if anything of what was written in any of those books.

Do you realise what an asset you are becoming to the other 'side'?

Love,

Caz
X

PS ...the diary seems like God, everyone knows it exists but only a few have seen it...???

My daughter has pointed out that in actual fact not everyone knows that God exists, so she says the analogy does you no favours.

(Message edited by caz on October 26, 2005)
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1795
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 8:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice to know that the Maybrick family is OK with the whole diary nonsense.

I guess if you have the permission of the descendants, then publishing completely unevidenced and ridiculous claims based on an obviously fake document isn't so bad.

And publishing the fake document without having it properly and thoroughly tested to learn all we can about it, indeed without even conducting the simple and inexpensive tests that would solve the conflicts we do have in the science, must be all right too.

It amazes me what passes for ethical behavior around here in the eyes of some.

Stick the fake document in a book claiming the guy killed people on two continents and sell it, but don't make sure to get all the possible tests done on it.

Why not? The descendants don't mind.

Charming,

--John
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 2238
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's funny.

Now it seems that by correcting the errors in Maria's futile imaginings:

It is a good job we haven't traced Maybrick's descendants. Imagine what they will do if they find out that this lot are slandering their ancestor. A law-suit ?

which couldn't have been more mistaken, backward and plain wrong,

I am accused of endorsing all Shirley and Feldy's claims, and what they did or didn't do to support them.

Maria makes factual error after factual error, and the person who corrects them is in the wrong for doing so.*

That tells us pretty much all we needed to know about what passes for ethical behaviour in the modern hoax camp.

You are welcome to Maria, but you didn't really need her to let the side down. She just made it more blindingly obvious that you make things up as you go along and hope nobody notices.

Love,

Caz
X

*It amazes me what passes for ethical behavior around here in the eyes of some.

I assume the readers will infer this referred to me.

(Message edited by caz on October 26, 2005)
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1797
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Caroline,

That's funny. In all this time, in all your posts year after year, I've never seen you say that putting this obviously fake diary in a commercial project claiming James was a murderer on two continents without first testing the thing thoroughly or even getting the simple tests done to determine what is and isn't in the ink is in any way unethical or even problematic.

And I've certainly never seen you agree or admit that there is something seriously wrong with making sure new editions of this book with Robert's diary in it hit the commercial shelves while during all that time those same simple tests still haven't been done.

In fact, all I've seen you do is offer excuses for why we haven't learned all we can about the book before someone sells it commercially in edition after edition.

If I'm wrong and you do think Robert placing his diary in a commercial venture while not doing what's necessary to get it thoroughly and properly tested to resolve the conflicts that exist in the science is a crassly irresponsible act that demonstrates twisted priorities, then I'll happily apologize to you.

But what I wrote had nothing to do with Maria. It had to do with what has and happened with this book for more than ten years now.

You can take whatever part of it you want personally. I'm not too concerned about that.

Thanks,

--John

PS: At least you're responding to my posts again. That's nice to see.
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2999
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Maria,

Do not patronise me, which is the first thing. You donít know the first thing about me or my life so letís not jump to conclusions. People like you who think anyone under the age of twenty five must be clueless and have spent their lives sheltered from the harsh reality of life really wind me up. I will add here that I might be a lot of things, but stupid or ignorant are not on the list! And yes I do tend to get very in a huff when people start trying to patronise me Ė funny that!

You have no idea what I do or do not know about the stupid diary and the tests which have been carried out on it. You think I spent my time prior to the Platt tests being commissioned just sitting around eating junk food and watching Big Brother? You are sadly mistaken. Now whether you, or John or anyone care for the nature of the tests is no my concern, my concern is that it is a fact that Robert Smith was willing to have the thing tested by a forensic lab with no strings attached and no complications. And thereís not any need to get mad because I was the one who got it to a lab and not you. And thereís no need to tell me what tests I should or should not be looking into and what the merits of those tests are or what they involve. Because I happen to know a lot more about it then you seem to want to give me credit for. So donít letís go there, if itís all the same to you.

Now you might think my age had anything to do with anything, (and you might take a whole two years off it too, but who's complaining?) if you want to talk about getting facts right Maria, you might want to work out my age from my year of birth (1984) you do you maths, since you are such a genius. I do not think my age is at all important. Last time I checked it did not alter my ability to reason, even with people like you. For the record in 1992 I was 8 years old, but I've been able to read a long time!!! Imagine that, and talk to!!! (I still canít type though!! Lol!) And yes I have read Mel's book, I even have notes on the said book. I think I've read all his books. I can only express my deep sadness that I never had the opportunity to meet him, I sure would have liked to. This isnít about what Mel did or didnít do. This is about what you said earlier. I did not mention Mel myself. Everyone knows why and Iím no hypercritic.

Now letís get some things straight here Maria, because I do not appreciate being treated like a child age five. In fact I donít even think a child age five should be subjected to the patronising tirade you just offered me. Perhaps you only offered it because you could not counter the points I made?

Do you have any idea about scientific tests and their viability? Maybe that is the difference between us? I for one am willing to be reasonable and civil towards people who treat me the same, for the better good of the cause, and because actually whatever they think about the diary I quite like most of the people who post on these threads. Now you might want to spend your days scoring points against Caroline or Feldy or Shirley, whatever you think you should do. I am not here to start petty fights with people. I am here to prove the date that diary was faked. lets be clear here I donít think we need to prove it was faked that has already been done.you know I think the diary is modern.its a matter of recorded fact.

Don't ever call me an impressionable 19 year old who doesnít know anything about anything again. Just get your facts straight. Lets time I checked I wasnít impressionable, in fact I thought of this post all by myself, and the other 2998 I have made over the years.

Iíve just spent all day at Uni I don't need to come home to this rubbish. And I've been up since 6am, I'm tired! But no matter because youíre worth it Maria, donít worry.

Cheers

Jenni

"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally

Post Number: 1083
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni,

In a completely non-patronizing tone of voice, I say, "You go girl".

One day I shall pass the scepter to you.


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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ally:

Exactly, just on the few pages that we saw from Shirley's book, everyone can see that in EACH page there are plenty of "tail lines to spare".

But now, we are being told that there are none to spare! Amazing, so how are we suppose to conduct future tests, and how on earth are we supposed to "do a Jenni" without the ink ? Funny isn't it ? "Do a Jenni, but we don't have the ink to spare.



Caroline

I see..you say you did your book for charity. Funny that that charity is not mentioned AT ALL, in your precious book is it ?

In Melvin's Harris' book, it mentions: Permission to quote from the material of the text will be granted in return for an agreed payment to the National Society For the Protection against Cruelty to Children. NSPCC.
A CHARITABLE organisation.

Nothing remotely like the above is mentioned in your book. And you expect us to take your word for it? Where is the independent proof to this claims ?

I never said that Melvin conducted the analysis HIMSELF. That is a gross invention of yours.
It was Melvin who arranged the IFA tests which showed the Chloroacetamide in the ink.

In YOUR book, attached to it is included some observations by Melvin Harris to your co-author Keith Skinner which say and I quote: "The tone and nature of your letter shows that you still fail to understand the basic differences between our involvements in the Diary farce. You were part of the action, but I did not even see the diary text until May 13th 1993. By that time it was far too late for sound counsel to be heeded. The book was finished and the various Rights had been sold and I was told by Feldman that I had not been invited to view the Diary earlier because "I lacked integrity", according to some of his team. The detractors were never named !

So the fake Diary rolled into public vision without the warnings from the very people who could have given it the death blow. For within days I was able to diagnose it as a crude, obvious fake and I wondered about the motives and standards of the people who stayed silent or acquiesced in allowing this hoax to flourish. Of course money, then and in the future played its part, but that is an age-old story! " end of quote.

You are the ignorant in genealogy, since ALL of the distant relatives have not been traced; so far, the ones shown in the book, are not ALL the relatives !

But then, really what matters is having the tests ... done. And how are we supposed to do that, if you are now telling us: "There is no more ink to spare? Amazing !

We only have your word for that assertion !
--Maria
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3001
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We all know why it is - its because i defended Caroline!
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3002
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maria,

you going to ignore me now are you?

Jenni
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3003
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maria,

it is you who are ignorant since even if all he distant relatives were traced, (and you are only assuming they havent been), they would not be able to sue anyone since you can only libel dead people under British law under very particular circumstances which i do not have the time to go into here.
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni:

From the mother's side of the family THEY HAVEN'T been traced.

You can sue from abroad, and as their ancestor was slandered in America as well... it is possible to sue from there.

YO ARE THE IGNORANT.

--Maria
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3006
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No Maria,
I'm sorry but its you who is unaware as to the laws of libel in Britian.

http://www.urban75.com/Action/libel.html

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/print_friendly.cgi?page=/writingclass/lessons/1999-12-20.shtml



http://www.robinkelly.btinternet.co.uk/spfaq10.htm

http://www.writersservices.com/edres/r_factsheet_15.htm

Jenni

who can use Google and remember her A Level Law
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3007
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ps and these links explain its the same in America too.
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1799
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 5:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni,

For what it's worth, I don't think any of us who have been here for a while and who have conversed with you electronically doubt your seriousness or your integrity or your maturity or your skills.

We might not agree on some things concerning what should have happened by now with this document (especially since it is currently being pimped at a price in a book that accuses a man of murders on two continents based on an artefact that is obviously fake and still hasn't been properly tested despite its being allowed to appear in edition after edition) -- and we might disagree on who is ultimately responsible for this scandalous sequence of "publish first and do the work necessary to learn the truth later." But I think there can be no question as to the soundness and honesty of your intentions and your interest in learning whatever we can about the document. In fact, I wish the owner of the book had the same driving desire to take the actions necessary and get the truth produced once and for all that you seem to have. Unfortunately, the past ten years clearly indicate otherwise.

Still, rest assured that whatever personal attacks might be made about your age or your intentions or your work, those of us who know you and know the history of your participation here know better than that.

Now back to the issue at hand -- what should come first -- the simple and inexpensive tests that would finally tell us what's in the ink along with whatever other tests can help us learn as much as possible about the document or yet another new edition of a book that uses (and includes with the permission of the owner) an obviously fake book to charge a man with multiple murders?

I know what I think should come first, ethically speaking.

What will come first, I wonder?

--John
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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 97
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 6:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni

That's fine with me, if you want to spend the rest of your life on this. That's fine. Go ahead I was merely pointing out that this saga has been here since you were 8 years old and it is going to continue...

Endlessly. People have already died discussing it

And I certainly won't be spending the rest of MY life on this. So I'm out of here.

Howard

If you are seing this... sweetie.. I have plastered my bleeding heart with Scotch Tape, and I'm joining you on your web site.

All is forgiven,

-Maria
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3009
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John,
its worth a lot

Cheers
Jenni

ps is this five words it is now!
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 2241
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 6:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All,

I'm just wondering, in my ignorance, how many ds there are in 'riddance'.

Maria wrote, before she went off in a factually incorrect huff:

It is a good job we haven't traced Maybrick's descendants. Imagine what they will do if they find out that this lot are slandering their ancestor. A law-suit ?

And I countered with:

'But surviving Maybricks and other more distant relatives were traced...'

Then she came back with:

You are the ignorant in genealogy, since ALL of the distant relatives have not been traced; so far, the ones shown in the book, are not ALL the relatives !

Did I say anything about 'all'? No I didn't. I was simply correcting her hopelessly inaccurate initial statement.

But then, really what matters is having the tests ... done. And how are we supposed to do that, if you are now telling us: "There is no more ink to spare? Amazing !

But I never wrote that at all! I merely informed the readers that Maria was wrong (what's new?) about the 'enormous blotches' of ink she claimed were still available in the diary. I explained patiently that they have all been used up. But I didn't, at any point, suggest that further tests could not, or should not be done. I said that samples would have to come from the text ie the diarists's actual work, as opposed to the accidental smudges and blotches.

All I've done is to point out and correct quite significant errors of fact and misunderstandings here, and yet anyone would think I'd just spat on someone's grandma.

Surely it's better for the modern hoax believers to rely on solid facts, than to hide behind half truths or patent untruths, that can be exposed in minutes.

Finally, some people prefer to give to charity quietly and some need to shout it from the roof-tops. The whole thing is an extremely vulgar topic of conversation and it's absolutely none of Maria's business how I donate and what I donate and why I donate.

I haven't quite got Ally or Jenni's spirit, but I do admire them for socking it to someone who has displayed such an appallingly ignorant and mean spirit towards her fellow posters.

Love,

Caz
X

(Message edited by caz on October 27, 2005)
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1801
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 7:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Caroline writes about "the accidental smudges and blotches" in the diary.

I don't know how much ink is left where in the book, but I am curious how she knows which of the smudges and blotches were "accidental" and which might have been put there for effect.

I ask this because I assume she is not including things like the long lines that are drawn between entries and at the bottom of some of the pages. Clearly, many samples could be taken from these lines without affecting the text itself or its readability.

How many such stand-alone lines of ink are there you ask?

Let's see.

There's 1 on page 1, there are 2 on page 2, there's a really long one on page 3, a small one on page 4, a long one page 5, one on page 6, one on page 7, one on 8 one on 9, one on 11, one on 12, 2 on 14, a thick one on 19, one on 23, one on 24, two on 26, a squiggly one on 29, a really long on 32, one on 34, one on 35, one on 39, a really long on 40, one on 42, a really long one 46, another really long one on 47, one one 48, one on 49, a long one on 50, almost a whole page of one on 54, and a long one on 59.

That's at least 32 separate lines, including a number of very long ones.

Now surely no one is asserting there's not enough ink available to do the simple tests Lars has described (and a good many others besides) without damaging any of the diary's text.

Are they?

Doing some morning counting,

--John
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert

Post Number: 572
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"YO ARE THE IGNORANT."

Yo yo yo -

Your personal attacks on Jenni represent new lows for Diary World; it's reprehensible behavior.

Sir Robert

'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1955
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh Maria,

Yo chose the wrong one to patronise there.

Monty

It begins.....
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Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl

Post Number: 270
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On the contary Sir Bob

It gave Jenni a chance to make one of the best replies I've seen all year. I read it twice. Great entertainment. I'd hate to get the wrong side of you when you weren't teird. And of corse well said.

Jeff

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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 786
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 1:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fair warning: The Casebook boards are littered with the bones of those who took Jennifer Pegg too lightly.

Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Monty,Jeff,Donald, Sir Robert:

My husband who has been a genealogist with 35 years of experience, found flaws on Feldman's "Family Tree" in fact some of the "relatives" were even INVENTED.

Peter who is a highly respected genealogist here and in Europe pointed out all of these mistakes years ago. Was his professional advice heed ?

No. It was ignored. When he found out the discrepancies on Feldman's "Family Tree" he began to suspect from his professional view point
the credibility of this diary nonsense.

Peter does this for a living, has done so for the past 35 years, he has been in courts of law giving forensic genealogy in the U.S. and he is sought after by the most distinguished European agencies in his field.

Of course, Jenni Know it all, is not aware of this, and I'm afraid, when along comes someone who hasn't read Peter's observation on the flaws of that family tree, it is just infuriating, and I lost it. If she is so serious about her research, she should just read, what he wrote all of those years ago, as I'm not going to spend my precious time trying to point her or Caz were Feldman went wrong.

If we in our business did THAT kind of research, we would go hungry by now...

But then, a new generation comes along, unaware of what has happened in the past and not even bothering to check what all the detractors from this fiasco have to say.

Thank you. I thought I would say that, just for the record.

On another matter, I don't think it makes it right that you can slander someone's ancestors just because they may not have a legal redress,
I think that is IMMORAL, regardless whether there is a law that protects them or not. Is plain immoral.

There are loop-holes to everything, just look at what happened in the TITANIC film when the producers of this film, slandered someone who was actually a HERO in the real life drama, Holywood portrayed him as a coward, there was great outrage in the town where he was born, the family WERE offered legal advice and in the end,
the makers of the film issued an appology and as compensation, they donated a monument to the hero
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Ally
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Ally

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Most outloud laughable moment of the year:

Maria Bit...er..Birchwood calling someone else a know it all.




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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert

Post Number: 573
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"So I'm out of here."

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Sir Robert

'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 99
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 4:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Sir" Robert:

No. I will make SURE it slams on your face!

--Maria
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Maria Birchwood
Detective Sergeant
Username: Maria

Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ally:

I never said I knew it all.

The credit goes to my husband, not me.

Caz:

When a book is done for charity it has to be displayed inside the book, so that people can know exactly where the funds are going.

--Maria
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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1802
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 7:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now back to the ink thread...

Hope those tests that Lars so graciously described are currently being arranged. Clearly there is ink in the more than thirty separate drawn lines available. The tests are simple we've been told, and they are not that expensive.

So it shouldn't be much longer now.

Should it?

--John
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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 7:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Howdy

If Stephen P. Ryder sets up a bank account and promises to administer it for the purpose of paying for a chloroacetamide test, I'll throw 50 bucks at it.

Then all you have to do is describe what you want done technically, get some quotations from a few labs if they feel they can/want to do it, get the necessary samples, and Roberts your mothers brother.

Mr P.


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John V. Omlor
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Omlor

Post Number: 1803
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 9:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Then all you have to do is...

But who should that "you" be? Who should be responsible for seeing that this is done and doing whatever is necessary to make sure we learn whatever we can about this document?

The person who owns the questionable document? The person who even now allows it to be used in a commercial venture that claims it's authentic and based on that, that James Maybrick was a multiple murderer? The person who has allowed this document, their document, to appear in new editions of such a book already without have these simple and inexpensive tests done?

That would certainly be the ethical answer.

That has been the ethical answer for many many years.

How much longer must we wait for him to get it done? Until yet another edition of the diary in book form can be sold?

I'll watch and see, like everyone else.

--John
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 3012
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 3:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maria,

whatever!

Jenni

ps five word rule.
"it is hard not to feel a twinge of guilt. Guilt for the fact that this man's name would always be coupled with something other than the great works of book-collecting and abdominal operations with which he is now associated."
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1960
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maria,

So your second hand knowledge excuses your patronising attitude?

Sweet.

Monty
:-)
It begins.....
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 3102
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenni-

The voice of reason ...

Suzi
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz

Post Number: 2245
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Maria,

When he found out the discrepancies on Feldman's "Family Tree" he began to suspect from his professional view point
the credibility of this diary nonsense.


So Peter fell foul of the 'attacking Feldy is as good as attacking the diary' shi* then, did he?

What does that do for anyone's credibility?

Was Brian Maybrick an INVENTED relative? If not, the point remains. You suggested that if any of the relatives were traced they were bound to want to sue, even if they couldn't.

When a book is done for charity it has to be displayed inside the book, so that people can know exactly where the funds are going.

Yes, thanks for that. But I didn't say the book was done for charity. I said I did it for charity. And I don't have to declare whether I give to the 'help Maria get some of her facts right' fund or to some other less needy organisation.

Love,

Caz
X

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