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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4181
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 7:56 am: | 
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This looks like the other victim in 1891. 5, White Hart St, Lambeth, Kennington First.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1779
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:15 pm: |
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Quite right, Robert,
Unless we can find the middle name 'Grace' to match the census details you have found for 1881.
The age seems right, the circumstances seem right, but I'm afraid only a record of birth with that middle name 'Grace' would confirm it.
Thanks for pulling my horses up, otherwise I fear I may have run over my own foot with my own carriage.
Sadly I had no returns for Isabel.
I'll check the father and mother name in the court report to confirm that this was the Florence you found in the census. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4182
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
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AP, it's a pity that the 24th March article seems to have been written by a poor journalist. I get the impression that the "Times" was normally quite careful about its facts, yet in this article we see :
Thomas called James.
Isabella called Isabel.
Clara Hayne called Clara Hoyne.
And to cap it all, the writer refers at the end to the evidence of "another young lady" being heard, when that other young lady had already been named at the start of the article. It's as if he forgot that he'd mentioned her.
So maybe he got Florence's name wrong too somewhere along the line.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1781
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
the Florence in the 1884 court case is the same as you found in the 1881 census, for her father is a John Johnson/Tailor.
She left home soon after the census in 1881, and no surprise as the father had laid open one of his son's skull with a poker, and attempted to suffocate his wife with what sounds like hot pastry!
Mildly interesting is that the Johnson family were living in Maidstone at the time.
There is a much more lucid article in The Times concerning THC written later but I can't find it at the moment, so it must be missing.
Perhaps the names of the victims are given correctly there?
No returns for Isabelle either. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4183
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |
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AP, here is a clearer image.
Isabella F Anderson, 18, dressmaker born Southwark.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1782
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Robert
I do have a Florence 'Grace' Johnson born in the 1871.
But the lady is born in Plymouth.
Possible. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4185
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
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AP, if I remember right she was still in Devon in 1891, which is a major obstacle.
I dare say she'll turn up in the end though.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1784
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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No worries Robert
we can just transfer this topic to the Barnett thread, speculate a bit, and young Florence can be anywhere we like.
We can put her on a train and speed her to Whitechapel in time for events to transpire.
(you are right though, being in Devon in 1891 young Florence is doing me no favours). |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4187
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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AP, I've found a Florence Grace Johnson born Lambeth Sept quarter 1875 - 1d 385. Going back to the census, there is a 15-year-old Florence Johnson living in Lambeth with her parents and siblings. Her father was a wholesale druggist, with two of his numerous offspring apparently working in the business.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1786
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
but it still aint right.
The Florence Grace we want would have to be 14 in 1884.
Annoying is that of the hundreds of Florence Johnsons I have found, hundreds of them do not have their middle names recorded.
So it is a bit of a no-man's-land.
I'll try another tack and hopefully pick up a breeze. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4189
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 2:21 pm: |
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AP, it's possible that she was actually married just before the 1891 census was carried out.
In the March quarter of 1891 a Florence Johnson married a William James Sibley at Leighton Buzzard. In the census for 1891 there is a William J Sibley married to a Florence, age 21, born Leighton Buzzard. So she is in the census, but under the name "Sibley."
In other words, poor Florence may have been stabbed on the eve of her wedding.
Of course, whether this Leighton Buzzard Florence with the bad dad is the one attacked by THC, is another matter.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4190
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
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I should add that she was living in High St, Woburn at the time of the census. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4194
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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SOUTH LONDON PRESS March 21st 1891
Alleged Stabbing at Kennington Park-road. Strange case.
Thomas Cutbush (27), a singular-looking man, was brought up in the custody of Inspector Race and Sergeant M’Carthy, of the L division, before Mr. Hopkins, upon a charge of feloniously cutting and wounding Florence Grace Johnson, aged 16, residing with her parents in Fentiman-road, Clapham-road. Chief-Inspector Chisholm attended to prosecute on behalf of the Commissioner of Police. The case was a somewhat extraordinary one, and resembled very much the assaults which took place at Brixton and Clapham, where a young man was charged with stabbing females in the public streets. He was said to be of weak mind. Inspector Chisholm said he only asked that the sworn information should be read. That course was followed, and according to that statement it appeared that on the night of Thursday evening week Miss Johnson was walking along Kennington Park-road. She was in company with a female friend, and as they were near Prince’s-square Miss Johnson suddenly received a blow from behind, and felt she had received some injury. She turned round and then saw a man, who ran away. Upon arriving home her garments were found to be cut through, and upon being examined at Kennington-lane police-station by Dr.Farr it was found that she had received a wound on the lower part of her back. The prosecutrix a few days back went to Peckham House Lunatic Asylum, and there identified the prisoner as the man who had assaulted her. The sworn information of a young girl named Isabel Fraser Anderson was also read, and according to it she had been assaulted in a similar manner. She believed the prisoner was the man who assaulted her. Inspector Chisholm asked upon this for a remand, and stated that he took the prisoner into custody on Saturday morning at the lunatic asylum, and upon telling him the charge he made no reply. It appeared that the prisoner had been transferred from St. Saviour’s Union to the asylum as a lunatic, after he had made his escape from the former establishment. The prisoner, who declined to say anything in answer to the charge, was remanded.
APRIL 18th 1891
THE EXTRAORDINARY STABBING OF YOUNG GIRLS.
Early in the day Thomas Cutbush (27), clerk, was arraigned on the charge of maliciously wounding Florence Grace Johnson and attempting to wound Isabella Fraser Anderson.It may be remembered that while a young man named Colicott, whose case was disposed of last session, was awaiting sentence for a similar offence, another scare was created by defendant stabbing a young female in Kennington with a toy dagger, which was exhibited in court. On the case being called, M. de Michele, who had charge of it for the Crown, said the only difficulty was as to whether defendant was competent to plead, by reason of the state of his mind, but Dr. Gilbert, the medical officer of Holloway prison, was in court, and would enlighten the bench upon the matter. Dr. Gilbert was then called, and he stated that after carefully observing the accused he was convinced that although not absolutely insane, he was sufficiently so not to understand the gravamen of the charge brought against him, and was quite incompetent to plead. The jury thereupon issued a pronouncement to that effect, and the defendant was ordered to be detained during her Majesty’s pleasure.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1801
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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Absolutely brilliant, Robert
So much more information in these reports. For instance we have a home address for Florence, which is a great bonus.
And so much more. I must stand on my head and pour the brandy back into the bottle and read it again.
I haven’t been idle myself, just confused.
Off the top of my head:
I’ve found legal disputes dating back to the early 1800’s involving the Cutbush clan of Maidstone and the Cutbush clan of London.
They had a revolutionary rag down in Kent.
The 1883 dispute would seem relevant to the dispersal of properties within the clan. Search term: ‘court of bankruptcy’.
And what about the ‘Cutbush Charity’?
Massive property owners.
I’m still looking.
My hat is off to you, Robert. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4196
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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Thanks AP. Yes, I'm still trying to assess where this info leaves us.
Re Florence, the article confirms that she was the Florence whose father was a druggist, for that Florence lived at 11 Fentiman Rd.
I have one more item on Colocitt, which I'll transcribe as soon as I can. Meanwhile I'll have a look at "court of bankruptcy".
Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4197
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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I notice that June 14th 1879 has a reference to Cutbush v Rendall. I find that interesting because a man called Randall was named as an executor in the will of one Tomas Cutbush, of Maidstone I think = this was in the 1830s.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
the 'Cutbush V just about anybody including themselves' saga seems to rumble through the courts for almost the entire century. I'd still love to know exactly just what was going on?
So the Florence Grace I found was the wrong one then? I stand by ready to fall on my sword.
There are many interesting details in the press reports you posted, not the least the decription of Thomas as being 'singular' in appearance. This of course means he appeared strange or eccentric in some way, which seems to match his behaviour. I believe this is the very first description I have ever heard for Thomas Cutbush, so that is a big advance.
Also I did not realise that he had actually been arrested by the police in the loony-bin, where - as there are no press or police reports to indicate otherwise - his dear old mum and aunt must have stuck him, while they instructed legal counsel to strip him of his inheritables. I must say that this little fact alone does continue my swerve to believing that young Thomas may have been set up in this case. Make no mistake, Robert, I am not saying that this is primary evidence against Thomas as Jack the Ripper, on the contrary my mind is going in the direction of thinking that it was easier for all concerned - including the police - if Thomas went down for a little bit of harmless madness like this 'jobbing' rather than for the total madness of Jack the Ripper.
Nice bit of PR work.
The bit about the 'toy sword' is intriguing, I read it as referring to Thomas, do you also?
There is more but I need a brandy. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4199
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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SOUTH LONDON PRESS FEB 7th 1891
The Extraordinary Charge of Stabbing Young Women.
Edwin Colocitt (26), residing at Aldebert Terrace, was charged, on remand, before Mr. Hopkins with stabbing several young women in the neighbourhood of Clapham.Mr. Sims prosecuted for the Treasury, and Mr. W.H. Armstrong defended. Some facts of this extraordinary case have been already reported. Anne Elizabeth Lewis, Stockwell Park-road, stated that on the 8th of January she was walking along South Lambeth-road shortly before 11 o’clock. When near the Library she was stabbed by some one. It was like a pinch or a blow from a skate. The person who did it ran on in front, and she followed. She saw the side of the man’s face. She lost sight of the prisoner. Upon her return home she found that she had been wounded on the left hip, and her clothing had marks of blood upon it. She was examined by Dr. Dorin at Larkhall-lane police-station. At the station she pointed out the prisoner from a number of others as the man who had stabbed her. Dr. Dorin, divisional surgeon, Clapham-road, said he saw the last witness at the police-station. He found she had on the left side, below the hip joint, a clean-cut punctured wound. He examined the clothing, and found it all cut through and corresponding with the wound, which was three-quarters of an inch in length and about a quarter of an inch in depth. In his opinion it had been caused by some sharp instrument, and he did not believe an ordinary penknife would have done it. He afterwards saw a young female named Gray at 9, Stockwell Park Walk, and found she was suffering from a wound of a precisely similar character to Miss Lewis. Her clothing was cut through in a corresponding position to the wound. Miss Gray was employed in the Post Office, but was absent from her duty for a week after this. Laura Horsley, living at 24, Clapham-road, stated that on the 9th January, about 10 o’clock in the evening, she was in the Clapham-road, when she received a blow on the lower part of her back. The man who did it ran off. She felt pain from the blow, and had to ride home. She afterwards found she had a deep cut on the left side, and that her clothing had been cut through. She remained at home for three days in consequence of this injury. She believed the prisoner to be the man who had assaulted her. The young woman Gray also deposed to having been stabbed on the left side of the hip. At home she found her clothing cut through.She had bled from the wound, and was attended by Dr. Dorin. At the station she pointed out the prisoner, whom she believed was the man who had assaulted her. Mr. Armstrong urged that it was entirely a case of mistaken identity. Mr. Hopkins said he had made up his mind, and fully committed the prisoner upon the several charges of unlawfully wounding. The prisoner was admitted to the same bail as before.
AP, I'll answer your post after a cuppa.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4200
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
|
Hi AP
Yes, i took the toy dagger as referring to THC. It isn't the only example of an SLP reporter jumping the gun - in the report above come the words "she lost sight of the prisoner."
As i understand it, putting the Times report together with the SLP report, THC had been causing trouble and so Kate and Clara had him sent to Lambeth infirmary, whence he escaped, and was thereupon sent to Peckham House where he was arrested. How the toy dagger fits in, I've no idea.
There are problems with this scenario, though. Macnaghten says that Thomas was re-arrested after he escaped from the infirmary - which would imply that he'd already been arrested once!
Also, Macnaghten says that Colocitt was discharged owing to faulty identification - and then proceeds to talk about the holes Colocitt made in the dresses!
From what Macnaghten says about Kate and Clara, they were worried about THC's behaviour, and Sir Melville dismisses this as due to their excitable disposition.
You could be right that THC was framed here. Perhaps the sharp knife found in his coat was planted by his family, who spun the police a yarn about how dangerous he was. But another possibility is : THC knew about the jobbing attacks because he read the Times. Suppose THC had been warned by his family that he was ripping in the last chance saloon. He keeps his nose clean. Then, a series of attacks takes place, attacks he knows he isn't suspected of. Maybe he sees a chance to join in and throw it all on the first jobber (like the way he joined the crowd and pretended to chase himself).
It's almost as if the original copies the copycat. After all, we know he was pretty quick-witted.
Just a possibility.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1806
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
|
Thanks Robert
I’m just totally intrigued by the ‘toy dagger’ episode. One wonders why Thomas was not arrested on that occasion, if the police really knew it was him?
Perhaps at that particular time uncle Charles stepped in?
But later realised he was saving a sinking ship?
I think it would do us proud to go back and read the reports in the Sun on young Thomas. I haven’t seen these reports now for some 15 years and given the new information we have recently assembled, I do feel that there may be much in the original Sun reports which would help us now.
Does anyone out there have the original Sun reports?
My gut feeling has always been that the Sun newspaper would not have made an issue of Thomas Cutbush being Jack the Ripper six years after 1888 unless they had a damn good reason for doing so.
It was old news by then, so they must have been prompted by some ‘new’ news.
And if Thomas was running around with a toy dagger and stabbing women prior to his arrest in 1891 then we may well have to reconsider this so-called ‘dormant’ period between 1888 and 1891.
It is also interesting that the doctor from the loony-bin does not appear to be entirely convinced of Thomas Cutbush’s insanity. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4201
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
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Hi AP
No, the doctor isn't nearly so convinced in this version, is he?
Re the dormant period, I think your suggestion that he may have been in and out of asylums from 88 to 91 is a possible. But I don't see why we must exclude McKenzie and Coles, maybe one or two others, just because these weren't full-blooded "Ripper" crimes. I imagine that if his mind was packing up on him, he mightn't have had the - shall I say, fire? - to do the full job on those.
Re the dagger, the paper says "it may be remembered" - would this mean that the toy dagger business had been reported in the Press?
Why can nothing in this case be simple?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1808
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
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Quite right, Robert
nothing is simple in this case.
There is a legal precedent for the 'toy dagger' incident, which may have given the police a prompt.
See The Times, Jan 16th, 1865, Politics & Parliament, where a young lad in Northern Ireland was 'severely punished' for possessing such a formidable weapon.
I have always held the caustic belief that the later crimes could be held to Jack's account, on account of his rapid descent into some kind of madness that could have ended up with him engaging in much more harmless crimes, I'm quite sure that a killer of the nature of Jack would have scales, ascending and descending to the tune in his head.
Yes, the dagger case must have been reported.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4202
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 4:06 am: |
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AP, there's a bit of uncertainty about where THC was originally held. Sir Melville says Lambeth Infirmary, but Aunt Clara said that he went to Newington Infirmary, while the SLP says St Saviour's Union. As there was a Newington Workhouse St Saviour's Union, it looks as if Sir M may have got it wrong.
The dates are puzzling. By my reckoning March 21st 1891 was a Saturday. I'm not sure of the date of the actual hearing, but Miss Johnson's "Thursday evening week" can only refer to the 5th March. It couldn't have been 12th, if Machaghten has got his dates right, for Macnaghten said that THC was re-arrested on March 9th. Of course, the question is, can we trust Macnaghten?
Miss Anderson says that she was attacked March 7th. Putting all this together with Sir M's dates, it would suggest that THC was sent to the Infirmary, whence he escaped at noon March 5th. That same evening he attacks Johnson, and two days later, Anderson. He is then re-arrested on the 9th and taken to Peckham House. Later he's again arrested at Peckham House, this time for jobbing.
Does all that make sense?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1810
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
|
Robert
Generally I suppose we can trust Macnaghten to about the same level as we can trust the press reports of the time.
And that is why I really would like to see those Sun press reports again, for Mac's memo was an attempt to rebuff those reports, so a comparison of dates and other data would help a great deal.
My memory of the reports is so bad now... there might even be more information concerning Thomas' whereabouts between 1888 and 1891?
The dates you've put together seem about right, but I'll print everything out, study it and then compare to other sources we have.
I'm beginning to suspect that young Thomas saw the insides of a considerable number of loony-bins! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1857
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:08 pm: |
|
Regarding my view of Thomas as some kind of pin ball being bashed about in the giant wizard that was Whitechapel in the LVP, and that he may have murdered because he was in fact approached by the 'unfortunates', there is a 1903 case of murder in Whitechapel where a young man, James Deane, is confronted by a much older 'unfortunate', Clara Clarke, and his immediate reaction is extreme and deadly violence.
The 'unfortunate' had merely spoken to him, briefly, and his reaction was truly deadly.
'The Times, May 6th 1903' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4247
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:51 pm: |
|
Here is the item, AP.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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Thank you kindly, Robert, much appreciated.
I thought the case of great importance to the concept of the rogue pinball, as it does prove that such wacky pinballs were around Whitechapel at that time. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
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Hi AP
With regard to your hunt for Thomas Taylor Cutbush, the following household from the 1861 census may be of interest:
1861
RG9 798 8 11
Address: Town, Enfield, Middlesex
Head: Thomas Cutbush aged 52 born Whitechapel - Printer (or Painter)
Wife: Ann Cutbush aged 49 born Ilford, Essex
Daughter: Sophia Cutbush aged 24 born Enfield
Daughter: Ann E. Cutbush aged 21 born Enfield
Daughter: Clarissa Cutbush aged 18 born Enfield
Son: Thomas T Cutbush aged 16 born Enfield
Servant:
Mary A Plummer aged 19 born Edmonton
The attachment below shows the relevant part of the household which is split over two pages. The reading of Clarissa looks odd as in the 1861 census they were still using the long form of the letter S which looks more like an "f"
 |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Here is the rest of the Cutbush household from previous page - I really cannot make out if Thomas Snr's trade is "printer" or "painter"
 |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1793
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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Guessing that the Whitechapel connection of the older Thomas may be of interest, see full size below. Although not the clearest of writing, I am confident it reads "Middlesex, Whitechapel."
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4265
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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Thanks for that, Chris! It ties in almost exactly with the 1851 entry. Did TTC not have an occupation?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1794
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
|
Hi Robert
No trade is listed for TTC in 1861
Chris
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
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Thanks for that Chris.
Very useful indeed.
I must leave it to Robert to sort it out though as all this census detail just doesn't filter through to my very illogical brain.
This TTC does appear to be too young to fit the TTC we seek though? Doesn't he?
As I said I get terribly confused by this, but you do have my sincere appreciation. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4267
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
|
Hi AP
No, his age is exactly right. He was born July 1844 and this census was conducted in April 1861, which means he was 16 at the time.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4287
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 8:03 am: |
|
AP, did you notice that April 12th 1886 reports that Amy D Cutbush topped the poll for admission to the Royal Masonic Institution for Girls? (she was a daughter of the rose-sniffers).
God knows what bloodcurdling oaths these young girls were obliged to utter. "May the contents of my handbag be emptied and flung over my shoulder..."
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1889
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 4:51 pm: |
|
No, I missed that one, Robert.
I'm wary of Masonic connexion, for obvious reason, but having studied uncle Charles' wayward career I would say that his influence came from such Masonic connexion rather than his ability as a policeman.
But that doesn't mean anything much.
His lordly position over pensions and such like would seem to indicate that he was highly thought of 'on the level'.
Intresting though, and I'll have a look around. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1890
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Robert
I've managed to drag out a Thomas Hayne, Superintendent, Kent police from 1878.
I don't know why I think that's important, it's probably the Spanish fly again. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4288
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 2:50 am: |
|
Hi AP
Debra found a Supt Thomas Hayne the other day. Where did you find him? The Times?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1894
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
|
That Debra is a quick and clever one.
Yes, Robert, I found him in The Times, it was to do with a railway accident where several people died.
I've lost the reference now - shame on me - but it was very late at night. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1898
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
|
I don't think this has come up before:
Groom: MEEK, JOHN JOSEPH
Bride: CUTBUSH, CLARISSA
Date: 1835~APR 18
Parish: ENFIELD
County: MIDDLESEX, ENGLAND
Groom Note: ST. OLAVE, SOUTHWARK
Bride Note: MINOR
Comments: LICENSED
Clarissa was under the legal age when she married.
Something of a trend? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1719
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
|
Well what with oppressive fathers and rapacious employers they probably opted for the relative
safety of marriage.Obscene isnt in it! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4299
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
|
The rule seemed to be "you can have my daughter, but you'll never get your hands on the money I bequeath her."
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4300
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
|
Just looked up Kate and Co in the 1861 census. Bits of it are hard to make out. Here is the site's transcription :
Person: HAYNE, Kate
Address: 20 , Cumberland Row
Name Relationship to
Head of H'hold Condition Sex Age Profession/Occupation,
Disability Where Born
HAYNE, John ... Head Married M 51 Furniture Dealer Witney
Oxfordshire
HAYNE, Anne Wife Married F 55 Mattington
Oxfordshire
HAYNE, Clara Daughter Unmarried F 22 China & Glass Dealer Mattington
Oxfordshire
HAYNE, Kate Daughter Unmarried F 17 China & Glass Dealer America
HAYNE, John S Son Unmarried M 16 Architect Assistant America British...
BAKER, ... Visitor Unmarried F 45 Independent Kennington
Middlesex
HINE, Katherine Visitor Unmarried F 46 Independent Watterington
Oxfordshire
..., ... Servant Unmarried M 15 General Servant Croydon
Surrey
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
345 Folio:
35 Page:
18
Registration District:
Newington Sub District:
St Mary Enumeration District:
9 Ecclesiastical District:
St Mary
Parish:
Newington City/Municipal Borough: Address:
20 , Cumberland Row
Looking at John S Hayne, I think it may be possible to make out "naturalised British" after the "Ditto" for born in America. Also John Hayne snr's middle name is written in, rather illegibly, but could be Lewis (which is what it ought to be).
This shows that the other Newington John Hayne - John S Hayne (I think the S was for Samuel) - was John Lewis Hayne's son.
The visitor Baker's birthplace looks more like Kensington than Kennington. And Anne, Clara and Katherine Hine's birthplaces could be Wallington, which rings a bell.
Robert
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4301
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
|
I think this is Uncle Charles in 1861, mistranscribed as "Burbush" :
Person: BURBUSH, Charles
Address: , Chapel Street
Name Relationship to
Head of H'hold Condition Sex Age Profession/Occupation,
Disability Where Born
BURBUSH, Amelia Head Widow F 45 Seamstress Hythe
Kent
BURBUSH, Charles Son M 16 Painters Apprentice Ashford
Kent
BURBUSH, Richard Son M 14 Drapers Boy Ashford
Kent
BURBUSH, Alice Daughter F 10 Scholar Ashford
Kent
BURBUSH, Albert Son M 8 Scholar Hythe
Kent
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
554 Folio:
121 Page:
28
Registration District:
Elham Sub District:
Hythe Enumeration District:
8 Ecclesiastical District:
Parish:
St Leonards City/Municipal Borough:
Hythe Address:
, Chapel Street
Robert
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4302
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
|
Luke Flood Cutbush :
Person: CUTBUSH, Luke F
Address: 3 , Lea Bridge Road
Name Relationship to
Head of H'hold Condition Sex Age Profession/Occupation,
Disability Where Born
MEARS, Matilda Head Widow F 77 Pensioner Of An... Charge On Landed Property Stepney
Middlesex
CUTBUSH, Mary A Daughter Married F 51 Whitechapel
Middlesex
CUTBUSH, Luke F Son In Law Married M 56 House Proprietor Whitechapel
VENABLES, Metilda Visitor Married F 27 Whitechapel
VENABLES, Fashan Visitor Married M 33 Woolen Draper Whitechapel
VENABLES, John L Visitor M 1 Bloomsbury
LEUSFIELD, Emma Servant Married F 25 Servant Selling
Kent
CORTILLO, Charlotte Servant Unmarried F 20 Servant ...
Glamorganshire
BENTLEY, Maria Servant Unmarried F 21 Servant Mountnessing
Essex
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
158 Folio:
116 Page:
14
Registration District:
Hackney Sub District:
Hackney Enumeration District:
13 Ecclesiastical District:
St John Hackney
Parish:
St John City/Municipal Borough:
Hackney Address:
3 , Lea Bridge Road
I think the reading for Mrs Mears is "pensioner of an annuity". "Fashan" Venables is "Fasham".
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Robert
you have been hard at it!
Thanks for all that.
I will study all this when the brandy clouds depart. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4304
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
OK AP. Did you get my email on Wednesday?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1904
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
|
No, I didn't, Robert.
But I have again been having very real problems with this damn machine.
So please try again and then I'll put down the brandy glass and respond like a normal human being.
Which I never was.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4305
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 9:39 pm: |
|
I think this is Miss Hine in 1871.
Howe Farm, Wallington, Oxfordshire.
William Hine, Head, 63, unmarried, landowner and farmer of 215 acres employing 9 labourers and 3 boys, born Wallington
Catherine S Hine, sister, 55, unmarried, housekeeper, born Wallington
Ann F Baker, Boarder, 57, unmarried, landowner, born Middlesex Kensington
Plus 4 servants
Miss Baker does look very like the Baker from 1861, but I cannot decipher the forename in 1861. Any ideas AP?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4306
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 6:00 am: |
|
By 1881 William seems to have gone :
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Catherine HINE
Head U Female 64 Watlington, Oxford, England Landed Proprietor
Ann F. BAKER
Boarder U Female 66 Kensington, Middlesex, England Landed Proprietor
Ruth SIMMONS
Serv U Female 19 Watlington, Oxford, England Domestic Serv
Source Information:
Dwelling The Howe
Census Place Watlington, Oxford, England
Family History Library Film 1341360
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1491 / 98
Page Number 14
Misses Hine and Baker are still there in 1891, but 1901 is as yet blank.
Robert |
|
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