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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3425
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 6:13 pm: |       |
Just a bit of fun here, AP.
June 27th 1877
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
I enjoyed the 'falling down the stairs' story, nice to see it in real life and involving a Cutbush!
But some of the information coming out of the wills gives me the impression that a lot of women connected to the Cutbush clan were falling down the stairs with alarming regularity.
Luke Flood Cutbush certainly didn't waste anytime, his first Mears wife going down the stairs within three years before he married the next Mears sister.
Then old Tom Flood Cutbush got his first wife - Sarah May - down the stairs within five years before marrying Elizabeth Blake who by all accounts did not take too long to trip on that fatal top step,
Running - or 'falling' - with this idea I did note in TFC's will that the old buggar had somehow got his hands on the 'estate of the late Sarah Cope deceased' and this must be the mother of the Sophia Cope he married in 1803.
As I've said before, there is a definite trend in how the male Cutbush's deal with their nearest and dearest, they seem to marry them for their loot, dispose of them down the stairs - or flee to marry again bigamously - and TFC's own will seems to show a great dread that the relatives of his children may wrest his fortune away from them, and he adds a paragraph on that very subject.
Great guns, Robert, yes the Taylors are a difficult bunch but I'm sure a gem will be revealed presently. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1487
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 1:25 pm: | |
Debra
I'm confused here, as I've seen neither the newspaper article or your post concerning the Mears-Cutbush business?
What happened?
Have I simply missed the pair, or have they never appeared?
Whatever, your efforts are enormously appreciated, and the link you provided to the 'Ancient Society of College Youths' has proved very, very useful indeed.
Very nice to have you on board the shaky ship. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3428
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Hi Debra
Thanks for your kind words and for the marvellous information you've posted.
I think you're right about Matilda Venables being the daughter of Luke Flood Cutbush. She's a bit young for Matilda but everything else fits.
I think you're also right about the Cobb/Tebb business, though here I'm mystified because the Ancestry marriage record certainly looked like Tebb. In fact, there were two images, and they were different! I'm posting them here side by side for comparison.
I've looked at No. 272 in the 1871 census and the Solomon brothers were evidently gone by then.
Thanks again.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 275
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 7:53 pm: | |
Hi AP
You mentioned the name of Taylor being linked with brewing.
I wonder if this would have been connected with the firm of Taylor Walker Ltd., a brewery that went out of business circa 1960.
A quick google search shows that they were at The Barley Mow Brewery, Church Road, Limehouse in 1889, and there also seems to be some family connection to Enfield.
But then perhaps you also remeber their flat insiped beer?
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3438
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 6:53 am: | |
Hi AP
I've just been to a book sale, where I purchased Archbold's Criminal Pleading, Evidence and Practice, 38th edn (1973). It's rather nice because the original owner's name is inscribed on the fly leaf, plus his address - 12 King's Bench Walk. He even gives his phone number.
Anyway, I turned to see what it had to say about pardons, and an example it gives uses the expression "AB" (meaning "so and so"). Therefore I think we'll have to give up any attempt to read something into the AB mentioned in the Thomas house sale case.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3439
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 9:08 am: | |
Hi Debra
Matilda's age is given as 57 for the 1891 census, which is more or less what it ought to be. She was living at "Woodlands," Coulsdon, Surrey with her family and two servants :
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 1:01 pm: | |
John, thank you, that is the very chap indeed that I have been looking at, and as I fall yet again down the stairs, I post an almost likely connection to the Mears & Cutbush clans, particularly when that connection comes down to ‘philosophical’ instruments, members of the ‘Ancient Society of College Youths’ ,booze - remembering the brew house in the Cutbush household - tea, cocoa and going to the Colonies very quickly. It is still very vague, but I feel well worth following:
Mrs Janet Taylor,
who ran a navigation school in the Minories, London, and wrote a book, "The
principles of navigation simplified", in 1837. She produced the Mariner's Calculator, illustrated in that book, which combined a sextant with a precise analogue computer,
for solving astronomical-triangle problems, and also brought out an
Artificial Horizon attachment to a sextant in 1856.
This was actually her husband who was a ‘brewer’ as well. They had eight children:
TAYLOR, GEORGE England, fl.1833-45, NIM author; see G. Taylor; E.G.R. Taylor thought that he was the husband or a close relative of Janet Taylor and that he succeeded her, however the dates are wrong for that possibility. 9 Fenchurch Street (1833); Navigation Warehouse, 103-4 The Minories, London. Taylor 2(2021); RSW
This is likely his brewery:
Taylor, Walker & Co Ltd, Barley Mow Brewery, Church Road, Limehouse.
Founded 1730 at Stepney as Salmon and Hare, later Hare and Hartford until 1796 when John Taylor acquired Hare's share. Isaac Walker became a partner in 1816. Moved to Fore Street, Limehouse by 1823 and the Barley Mow Brewery was built in 1889.
(Both Taylor and Walker were also heavily involved in the tea and cocoa trade).
The well-known London brewer, Taylor Walker, began brewing at the site of today's "Barley Mow" pub in 1830. This stretch of the Thames was known as Brewery Wharf, whilst from a little further along the embankment the Dunbars, after whom Dunbar Wharf is named, exported Pale India Ale from the Limehouse Brewery in Fore Street to India and Australia. They also exported people: the first voluntary passengers for Australia left from this wharf (the first involuntary ones left from Wapping Old Stairs). Brewing in Limehouse did not cease until 1960, when Taylor Walker merged with lnd Coope.
The few remaining bottles of beer brewed by Taylor Walker are worth a fortune today.
Meanwhile Thomas Hayne Cutbush collects his clipboard from the tea and cocoa dealers in The Minories and goes about his lawful business, waving to the ships as they depart the Limehouse Brewery in Fore Street for the Colonies. And TTC waves back.
I guess I might have had one too many Taylor Walker beers.
I better drink some of that nice Taylor tea. From Harrogate you’ll understand.
And have a cocoa before I go to bed.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3442
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 1:28 pm: | |
This seems to be the Cobb family of Frensham. By 1891 what is presumably Frederic's son is the Head.
1871
1881
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Frederic COBB
Head W Male 85 Thornley, Kent, England Fellow Royal College Of Physians Not Practising
Sarah HAWKINS
Serv U Female 51 Alton, Hampshire, England Cook (Domestic Servant)
Sarah A. CHAPPELL
Serv U Female 20 Cove, Hampshire, England Housemaid (Domestic Servant)
Source Information:
Dwelling Cottage Millbridge
Census Place Frensham, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341185
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0789 / 65
Page Number 10
1891
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3445
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 6:36 am: | |
Here is the will of Edward Cutbush of Lewisham. It doesn’t tell us much, but I’ll post it anyway.
I Edward Cutbush son of Thomas Hoskins Cutbush and Clarissa Cutbush in the parish of Lewisham in the County of Kent do make this my last will and testament as follows that is to say I give advise and bequeath all my effects gold weal and personal or of what nature or kind soever and whatsoever which I may be possessed of or in any manner entitled unto at the time of my death or may become mine after my death I give and bequeath to my father Thomas Hoskins Cutbush of the Tower of London ( in margin : before mentioned place late that of the Storekeepers Office) and I do hereby nominate and appoint my father Thomas Hoskins Cutbush sole executor of this my will hereby revoking all former wills by me at any time heretofore made and declaring this only to be my last will and testament. In witness whereof I the said Edward Cutbush the testator have to this my said will set my hand and affixed my seal this twenty second day of March in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twenty – Edward Cutbush (SS) signed sealed and declared by me Edward Cutbush the testator for my last will and terstament and in the presence of the undersigned gentlemen have subscribed their names as witnesses thereof in presence of each other- Richd Aldridge Blackheath Hill Greenwich – Thomas Dockrill Blackheath Hill Lewisham
Proved at London 17th June 1820 before the worshipful (illeg) Dr of Laws and surrogate by the oath of Thomas Hoskins Cutbush the father and sole executor to whom admin was granted being first sworn duly to administer.
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 1:21 pm: | |
Even so, Robert, it is unusual for a child to make a will for his father... I think you'll agree. Most unusual.
I'm not having a lot of luck at the moment in the searching and questing, but hopefully will stumble across a full bottle of SSB in the near future.
However one thing that has occured to me as I wandered the lonely trails of the web late at night, is that the sudden departure of Thomas Taylor Cutbush for firstly New Zealand and then Australia in 1866 does very much coincide with the expansion of the Mears' Foundry's bell making empire into NZ & OZ, where most major churches and cathedrals were being kitted out with bells by Mears during the very years that we see TTC on his travels down under, or even had their bells repaired by shipping them back to the Whitechapel Foundry...
So I was sort of toying with the idea that perhaps TTC could have been a representative for the Whitechapel Foundry?
Just a vague thought. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3448
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 2:13 pm: | |
Hi AP
That certainly seems possible. "Mercantile clerk" could presumably cover just about anything.
If he was originally engaged on business for the foundry, then presumably Kate would have got word of his progress, if not from him then from other members of the family. That might explain why she still lists herself as married in 1871.
Then perhaps he branched off into other schemes, and they lost contact with him.
There was a Taylor living at 30 Whitechapel Rd in 1871, but she was just a servant so that means nothing.
I wonder if any of the instruments being made were of the surgical variety.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3450
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
AP, just looking again at John's post on the Testament of Thomas thread. I see that "our" Edward who died in 1890 left a cool £17,000.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1490
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
that was a powerful sum of money back then. One could have bought Tasmania for such a sum.
Thought this of great interest, Robert.
Taken from the ‘Horological Journal’ - Obituaries:
‘Vol 28 Mar 1886 105 Mr James Stoddart Hon. Sec. Of BHI Watch manufacturer’
BHI = British Horological Institute.
Never a link to the Stoddart family as well?
Well I never.. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3452
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 4:44 pm: | |
That's interesting, AP. I don't know whether he was either of these, from 1881 ;
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James STODDART
Head M Male 60 London, London, Middlesex, England Scale Maker
Maria STODDART
Wife M Female 55 London, London, Middlesex, England
Maria E. STODDART
Daur U Female 32 London, London, Middlesex, England Dressmaker
Eleanor STODDART
Daur U Female 19 London, London, Middlesex, England Teacher (Sch)
Source Information:
Dwelling 5 East St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341031
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0141 / 118
Page Number 51
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James STODDART
Head M Male 30 Walworth, Surrey, England Silversmith
Elizth. STODDART
Wife M Female 29 London City Of, London, Middlesex, England Silversmith Wife
Helena MC SHAM
Other W Female 24 Lambeth, Surrey, England Mantle Maker
Source Information:
Dwelling 2 Somerset Cottages Thomas St
Census Place Lambeth, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341139
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0607 / 109
Page Number 39
But we not only have the Stoddarts, we have the Solomons too. Take a look at the Fieldgate St thread.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1491
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 4:50 pm: | |
Is that King Solomons Mines, Robert?
Keeping it in the family:
‘Stoddart, Walter Arthur , St. Arnaud, watchmaker’
Taken from a list of the original founders of the ‘Avoca Gold Mining Company’ in the Colony of Victoria, 1871.
I'll run through the references you posted but meanwhile I better get over to Fieldgate Street as I have lodgings for the night booked in number 6. I like the sound of those bells.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 5:23 pm: | |
Robert, unfortunately the site I first accessed did not have an address for James Stoddart, Watchmaker, but I have since found some that do, but they want cash in hand, so I'm trying to raid them with a mask on.
I'd guess it was the first chap you flagged up. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1494
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 5:31 pm: | |
And Robert, regarding instruments of a 'surgical' nature, how right you are:
'Back in England, Faraday resumed his position as Chemical Assistant at the Royal Institution and continued to learn his science from Brande as well as occasionally helping Davy as with the Miner's Safety Lamp in 1816 and 1817. Between 1818 and 1822 he worked with the surgical instrument maker James Stoddart in improving the quality of steel.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3455
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 5:41 pm: | |
Hi AP
Thanks for that. There seem to be Stoddarts everywhere.
Re the watchmaker Stoddart, I only checked 1881 for london/Middlesex/Surrey Stoddarts, so he maty have lived elsewhere. The family above lived at the same address in 1871, but there were several other families living there too, which doesn't really go with "Hon Sec BHI".
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3456
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 8:20 am: | |
AP, I found this :
London Metropolitan Archives: Carpenter Collection
The contents of this catalogue are the copyright of London Metropolitan Archives.
Rights in the Access to Archives database are the property of the Crown, © 2001-2004.
To find out more about the archives described below, contact London Metropolitan Archives
CARPENTER COLLECTION
Catalogue Ref. O/530
FILE - Mortgage between Robert Stoddart, watchmaker of Christchurch, New Zealand and James Stoddart of Holloway, Islington - ref. O/530/48 - date: 1869 Jun 4
There is one James Stoddart listed as living in Islington in the 1871 census. He is a 65-year-old retired watch maker, born Clerkenwell.
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 5:49 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Dr. Frederic Cobb's name appears quite a few times in The Times too ( I am assuming there was only one Dr. Frederic Cobb), he appears to have been attached to the London Hospital, there is an interesting article from 1845 where he is named as one of the patrons involved in trying to set up an'asylum for the middle classes of society' for persons who are insane but are not paupers and whose families have difficulty paying for a private asylum, they would only be charged a modest sum,especially for officers of the army and navy, clerks etc.
The Frederic Thomas Cobb you found, his son, was widowed in 1885 when his wife Elizabeth was killed in a carriage accident ( beats falling down the stairs!)
Debra
|
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 6:38 pm: | |
Hi Robert and AP
Glad the information has been of some use, my posts take anything up to 7 days to appear as I am unregistered, and they don't always appear in the order they were posted either which I know makes them confusing!
Robert, I can't understand the Tebb/Cobb thing either, both of those entries look like Tebb to me too.
I could only find a Frederic Cobb ( who was also a doctor) marrying an Eleanor Davison in Faversham Kent, among their children was a daughter Eleanor Cobb, but I can't see how this ties into the Cutbush family, unless Eleanor Cutbush was competing with the male members of the Cutbush family and disposing of spouses too and married a Tebb, a Davison and eventually a Cobb!
I wondered if the Solomons you found on the 1891 census at 7 Fieldgate St had any connection to the ones who were occupying the property at Whitechapel Road in 1867.
Anyway you will probably have sorted out a lot more by the time this appears on the board, but if I find anything useful I will try and pass it on.
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3459
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 10:31 am: | |
Hi Debra
Thanks for that. Yes, the Solomons are intriguing. As for the Tebbs/Cobbs, I blame the Curse of the Cutbushes (nothing allowed to be simple).
Re London Hospital, a while ago I posted an item showing Luke Flood Cutbush acting as steward at their 116th anniversary dinner, in 1856, so that all seems to fit together nicely.
Many thanks for your valuable posts, Debra.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3460
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
Just to round off the James Stoddart saga, I believe the one with New Zealand connections and the ones mentioned below are all one and the same person.
1871
1881 (listed as Stoddard)
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James STODDARD
Head M Male 75 London, Middlesex, England Retired Watch
Ann M. STODDARD
Wife M Female 87 London, Middlesex, England
Rosa M. BARTHOLOMEW
Serv U Female 18 Chatham, Kent, England General Servant Domestic
Source Information:
Dwelling Martock Villa
Census Place Ore, Sussex, England
Family History Library Film 1341242
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1021 / 25
Page Number 10
There is a death for James Stoddart 1886 at Hastings aged 80.
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1495
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 1:14 pm: | |
Brilliant find, Robert, the connection between the watchmaking Stoddarts of Christchurch, NZ, and London Islington.
Especially in regard to the information that the contact regarded a mortgage in 1869.
This was of course two years after TTC had married into the Stoddart clan of New Zealand, and a year before his new bride suddenly died.
I am beginning to think that poor young Agnes did fall down the stairs after all; and that if her sister had not quickly married in 1869 - to another clerk - then TTC would have snapped her up as well.
On that subject I found it a just a tad strange that the two Stoddart sisters were buried together.
Anyway, great stuff, Robert, and I'll see if I can't dig more out of the growing manure pile. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1496
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Dug another one out of the pile.
I'd like to see the photos:
'PR 65 Stoddart family fonds. -- [ca.1890]-1979. -- 16 photographs (0.02 m) and 0.01 m of textual records.Robert William Croke Stoddart was born in London, England and came to Victoria about 1894 where he opened a watch repair and jewellery store on Yates Street. Robert was married to Sarah Annie Stoddart and had seven children, Ada, Daisy, Emily, Rosa, Harry, Percy and William. Sarah died in 1922 and Robert died in 1932 at the age of 91.Fonds consists of photographs and miscellaneous records. Photographs depict members of the Stoddart family, family residences and family businesses. Miscellaneous records consist of theatre and parade programmes and tourist brochures of Victoria.
Location: 29 F 8. ' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3462
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 4:06 pm: | |
i'd like to see the photos too, AP. I couldn't find these folks in the censuses, but in searching I found the following very tenuous link, which I may as well post although it's probably unimportant. I mean the lodger.
1881
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John STODDARD
Head M Male 40 Brighton, Surrey, England Upholsterer
Mary STODDARD
Wife M Female 42 London, Middlesex, England
Ada STODDARD
Daur Female 13 Hackney, Middlesex, England Scholar
Isabel STODDARD
Daur Female 8 Hackney, Middlesex, England Scholar
Charles HARDY
Lodger Male 32 York, York, England Clerk In New Zealand Merchant Office
Source Information:
Dwelling 16 Evering Road
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341062
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0289 / 69
Page Number 2
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1497
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
Nothing tenuous when it comes to these folks, Robert. All worth digging up.
I liked the sound of this chap as well:
'Stoddart James Merchant in Brisbane Sugar Industry 1889/v.4 346-348'
Sugar, sugar. Fieldgate Street? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3463
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 5:32 pm: | |
Something to put in the Kearley and Tonge tea and the Taylor's cocoa, AP.
I've had another look at Tom Flood's will. He speaks of a house in Aldgate let to a tailor, and I think the name of the street may very well be Jewry Street. i think there was such a street in that location.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1501
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
Robert
I’ve got sort of a ‘Bingo’ call here.
You’ll remember earlier that I said I was in touch with the great great great nephew (in Australia) of the remarkable Janet Taylor who ran a navigation college in The Minories - and also designed and built philosophical instruments - well he has been kind enough to provide a few details - which I will post fully when I have his permission.
Although on first appearance his note seems to suggest that the Taylor connection is a bit of a red herring in this particular case, mainly because the George Taylor who married the famous Jane Taylor and gave her his name was actually named ‘George Taylor Jane’ but the pair decided to drop the ‘Jane’ part of the name upon their marriage.
But there is good news as well, this great great great nephew of Janet Taylor had a grandmother with a name well known to us… Cutbush.
One Emily Cutbush.
Anyways I’ll delve further.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3482
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
Fantastic, AP. Hopefully George Taylor Jane's mother was a Taylor, so the Taylor connection would still hold.
Will await further details.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on November 17, 2004) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3485
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 3:42 pm: | |
AP, do you know if "Cutbush" was your contact's grandmother's maiden name or married name? It's just that I could find only one Emily in the 1881 census (a baby) and by 1891 she and her family seem to be no longer there. They lived at Newington in 1881.
Obviously, this chap's grandmother may have married into the Cutbush family. But it's odd that Emily can't be found in the 1891 census (barring transcription errors) because she was too young to have married by 1891. And her parents seem to be missing too.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1502
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
I'm onto that and am awaiting a reply. He's a busy boy though as he's just having a book published on his famous great great great aunt.
Meanwhile I find that his great great great aunt - Janet Taylor - enjoyed a long professional relationship with a certain Sir George Biddell Airy. They exchanged many letters, which are available.
Observe and enjoy:
'The Royal Astronomer, Sir George Biddell Airy was the first referee appointed to the construction the Great Clock. It was Airy who prepared the initial specification in 1846 which called for a clock which would strike the hours accurate to one second. Denison was subsequently appointed joint referee and revised Airy's specification and Dent's designs. Their working relationship was not always harmonious and Denison's lack of cooperation with the architect, Sir Charles Barry, led to Airy's temporary resignation as referee in 1853.'
We talk Lord Grimthorpe and Big Ben here, Robert. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3486
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 4:08 pm: | |
Yes, AP, and one wonders whether Grimthorpe ever had a harmonious working relationship with anyone.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3489
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:05 am: | |
AP, here are some of those Janet Taylor items.
SEPT 20th 1836
JAN 31st 1843
FEB 21st 1844
MAR 29th 1849
PS Did you get my reply to your email?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3492
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 8:47 am: | |
This is by way of being a follow-up to one of Debra's posts.
JAN 4th 1868
JAN 13th 1868
JUL 29th 1895
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3498
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 4:12 pm: | |
I've been spending some time with the Holts. Blimey! A fatal boat accident, adultery and bankruptcy.
This item seemed interesting for several reasons.
Nov 8th 1888
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Robert, I’ve been ‘navigating’, so excuse me if I don’t reply to your last posts until tomorrow, theses navigators drink so much that I fear I need a philosophical instrument to find me way home.
Believe it or not Robert, there is a valid link between these damn horticulturist Cutbush’s that you hate so much and the subject we discuss.
This is a Mister Baffin. Famous navigator, at some stage married into Cutbush family and now has roses named after him.
More than that, I find Sir George Airy lauding a certain Thomas Glanville Taylor, Astronomer Royal at Madras for producing the ‘greatest catalogue of modern times’ when the young Thomas catalogued 11015 new stars.
Of course it is important to note that Sir George Airy’s second in command at Greenwich was Thomas Taylor. And this at the time of Lord Grimthorpe receiving the commission from Airy to construct the tower clock we now know as Big Ben.
Then there are ‘Taylor’s Table of Logarithms’ which were to the LVP like Microsoft to us today. Absolute essential tools of navigation and time pieces.
Throw in a ‘Haynes’:
‘Letterpress broadside map predicting the annular eclipse of 18 February 1737 by John Haynes. Although this is rather crudely engraved it is an unusual example of a very decorative eclipse map in colour.’
And ’nother Taylor:
‘A broadside by Thomas Taylor for the 1724 eclipse reflecting the fairly sophisticated nature of these separately sold sheets. 1t contains detailed information, written and visual, about how and why an eclipse occurs. The attractive view at top right shows people observing a total solar eclipse. Maps (unallocated).’
And you will probably see the moon.
(All information gratefully stolen from the British Library)
And I found another Cutbush artist. Albert.
Probably the same one I found last time.
Damn navigators.
'Thomas Taylor of Ashburton and Ogwell, Devon. Deputy Astronomer Royal at Greenwich - Thomas Glanville Taylor Astronomer Royal at Madras.'
I'm following your latest posts with a brandy, Robert. Back soon. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3500
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 5:11 pm: | |
You've been busy, AP! I don't know how all this stuff fits together but it certainly sounds very promising. We're getting recurring themes here, not the least of which is Grimthorpe.
Do we have to have the horticulturist Cutbushes? I thought I'd pruned them....
I couldn't find an artist Albert Cutbush - only a clerk Albert Cutbush (Uncle Charles's son).
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3501
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:15 pm: | |
Casting of bells in Taylor foundry at Loughborough. Feb 19th 1923.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3504
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:43 am: | |
The following combination of a Cutbush and a James Taylor might or might not be a coincidence.
Nov 26th 1842
AP, I should think that the link to Uncle Charles, which you were concerned we were losing, will come partly through the rose-sniffing Highgate clan, as Uncle Charles's father was a seedsman.
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 6:05 pm: | |
Hi Robert and AP
I don't know if this has already been established but I have found a connection between Luke Flood , painter in Whitechapel, and the Cutbushes.
Luke flood ( who appears to have been extremely wealthy and owned much property) had a daughter Clarissa Flood, the same Clarissa that married Thomas Hoskins Cutbush.
Thomas Hoskins fortunes seem to have taken a turn for the good around 1800.
In 1799 Tom Flood Cutbush was apprenticed to a Samuel Page( who's wife was also a Flood, probably the same Flood family as they also had a son Luke flood Page)his father Thomas Hoskins cutbush was described as a clerk, of Tower, London.
In 1800 Tom Flood Cutbush was apprenticed to a John Williams and his father's occupation was given as gentleman ( same address as above)
I have much more on this if needed, but haven't time to post it until next week.
Debra
|
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
Hi Robert
I was wondering if you have access to the 1871 census online, if so I was wondering if you could look at something for me ( or maybe you have looked and have it on file ), I am curious about a Thomas Cutbush aged about 20 who is listed as living at Bucks row Whitechapel and was b in Kent. I only have access to the index at the moment and not all the residents of this address show up, Thomas is listed as adopted son of the head ( who must have a different surname ), and there are also two other Cutbush children listed here who are god sons of the head .
Thanks if you can help, this is more out of curiosity than anything else! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1505
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
Robert
Thanks for all the Janet Taylor posts. The one concerning the schooner was of great interest... perhaps she was planning to sail to Oz. Perhaps she did. I'll see if I can't find more.
Regarding the Times article with the slight link between Cutbush & Taylor, surely wasn't one witness to one of the Cutbush wills you found a 'Jas Taylor'?
Anyways I'm back off to sea with compass, clock and bell. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1506
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 1:09 pm: | |
Debra
that's a very useful connection and link, which I'll pursue a bit more. I have come across the 'Page' name in connection with the 'Floods' before, but dismissed it at the time.
It strikes me that almost all the Cutbush males married with luck and good fortune into money.
On that note I'd still like to know how much of an estate the young Kate Hayne brought with her to her luckless marriage with Thomas Taylor Cutbush.
Please do post the other information you have concerning the Floods and Cutbush's as soon as you are able.
As ever your posts move us on quickly to new areas of research.
My thanks for that. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3505
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Hi Debra
That’s a tremendous find! And it probably solves the "artist Cutbush" mystery – when Tom Flood spoke of paintings executed by his family, he probably meant by his maternal grandfather, Luke Flood.
Yes, please post anything more that you have.
Re Buck’s Row, I’ll list the information and then post the images.
We seem to have a house number duplication. For example, there were two number 1 Buck’s Row houses, as you’ll see.
Anyway, in 1871 at 1 Buck’s Row we have
John Howell, 47, smith and farrier, born Bow Middlesex
Ann Howell, 47, wife, born Newington Surrey
Joseph Hudson, single, 16, son-in-law, smith and farrier’s son, born Southwark Surrey
Charles Howell, son, 12, born Whitechapel
William Howell, son, 8, born Whitechapel
Robert Howell, son, 5, born Whitechapel
Thomas Cutbush, adopted son, single, 21, telegraph clerk, born Whitechapel
(Ancestry mistranscribed him as “Culbreath”)
Plus, at the same address, the Rippon family
Further up the road, at number 7, we have the Bridge family, plus Mr and Mrs Lambert, plus Alfred Cutbush, 14, Mr Lambert’s godson, printer, born Lambeth
And also Alfred Ernest Cutbush, 9, godson, born Lambeth
Ancestry had these two down as “Cutbrish”.
For AP’s benefit I will say that there were Taylors living nearby.
Rob Hills in a Ripperologist article found an Albert Cutbush living at 7 Buck’s Row in 1881. I don’t have access to the 1881 images, but I suspect the LDS mistranscribed the younger Alfred as "Albert".
Looking forward to your next post, Debra, and thanks very much.
AP, James Taylor : exactly!
Robert
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3506
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
Hi again Debra
Here are the images showing Thomas Cutbush at number 1, the two Alfreds at number 7, the two number 1 adresses to show the house number duplication, and the 1881 "Albert" Cutbush.
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John LAMBERT
Head W Male 71 Woolwich, Kent, England Blacksmith
Albert CUTBUSH
Boarder U Male 18 Lambeth, Surrey, England Blind Maker
Source Information:
Dwelling 7 Bucks Row
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341096
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0442 / 75
Page Number 8
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1507
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Debra
not sure if following is useful, taken from a Victorian History of Middlesex:
'In 1851, although Cadogan, Princes, Halsey, and Moore streets were partially occupied, houses, slightly larger and more Italianate, were still being built in Moore and Halsey streets; the residents were a mix of professional and tradesmen, and Halsey Street included a stableyard. (Footnote 12) Further building leases were granted for Moore and Halsey streets in the early 1850s, several by Luke Trapp Flood, who sublet to the builders.'
From: British History Online
Source: Settlement and building: From 1680 to 1865: Chelsea Park to Blacklands. A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume XII, Patricia E.C. Croot (editor) (2004).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=28693
Date: 19/11/2004
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1508
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 5:53 pm: | |
Debra, just to beef up your stew:
'The strong musical tradition of St Luke's is associated with the new church, perhaps because the fabric of the old building, and its bells and clock, had taken up so much of the vestry's time. (Footnote 26) In 1745 subscriptions enabled an organ to be placed in the west gallery, only to be taken down as unauthorized in 1746. Subscribers sought a faculty in 1752 and obtained it in 1754, after a suit in the Court of Arches, despite opponents claiming lack of space and perpetual expense, (Footnote 1) but nothing more seems to have been done until 1818. An organ committee was then formed, with Luke Flood as treasurer, and money was raised for an 8-year-old organ.'
From: British History Online
Source: Religious history: The parish church. A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume XII, Patricia E.C. Croot (editor) (2004).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=28724
Date: 19/11/2004
' |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1509
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
This is rock and roll.
Luke even had his own charity:
'FLOOD'S CHARITY, Churchwardens of St. Luke's, Chelsea £30 annually'
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