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Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 96
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 6:12 am: | 
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I don't know whether any of this has been brought up as it's very hard to know if any of what Mary told Joe was true. Anyway, I did a search in the 1881 census for a John Kelly (her father) and I came up with one possible:-
Name: John Kelly
Birth Year: 1831
Birthplace: Ireland
Age: 50
Occupation: Labourer At Iron Works
Marital Status: W <widowed>
Head of Household: Mary MADDEN
Relation: Lodger
Disability: None
Dwelling: Gibsons Square
Census Place: Trevethin, Monmouth, Wales
Of course this isn't necessarily him, but it was the closest I could find to anything that Mary had said about him, including his job. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 729
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 11:30 am: |
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Hi Sarah
Im attaching below a notice I sent to the old message boards which gives full details of the Trevethin household, including a younger Kelly who also worked at the ironworks. I agree with you about the problem of knowing how much of Barnett's account is true. In our search for Kelly the only statement, as far as I know, for which there is exeternal confirmation- apart from Barnett's testimony - is that Mary was originally from Limerick. the main item against the Trevethin John Kelly being related to Mary is that he is described as widowed. The other evidence which supports the claim that Mary came from Limerick says that at the time of her murder, her mother was still alive and was living in Limerick and in regular correspondence with Mary.
Chris
I searched in the 1881 census looking for the following
1) Name JOHN KELLY
2) Born in Ireland
3) resident in Wales
4) Working in an Iron Works
Only one possibility emerged and the details of the household are as below:
Address:
Gibson's Square
Trevethin
Monmouth
Wales
Head:
Mary Madden: widowed aged 50 born Mon, Ireland
Michael Madden: aged 13, born Trevethin, Monmouth (son)
Timothy Madden: aged 10, born Trevethin, Monmouth (son)
Boarders:
John Kelly: aged 50, born Ireland Labourer at Iron Works
James Kelly: aged 15, born Trevthin, Monmouth Labourer at Iron Works
Juhannah Kelly: aged 13, born Trevethin, Monmouth Domestic Servant
Please note that the spelling of Juhannah is as in the Census entry and should presumably by Johannah
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Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 11:40 am: |
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Chris,
Yes, the John Kelly you found is exactly the same as my one. The thing about Mary's mother that strikes me though is that it was said that her family were in Wales, or at least that's what I have read.
Do you know if there is some sort of list of members of the Scots Guards that her brother Henry would be on as I have tried really hard to try to find something like this but to no avail.
Sarah |
Andy and Sue Parlour
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 2:27 pm: |
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Regarding the Kelly's. We reasearched many a record and come up with what is recognised as some of the best Kelly family information found to date. Published in our book in 1997, this runs nicely with what we have had published in the current 'Ripperologist'.
A. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 730
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:08 pm: |
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Sarah
In case you are not familiar with the other statement I referred to - the Limerick link and Kelly's mother - the passage below is from an article published in the Te Aroha Times (New Zealand) on 12 January 1889:
"There is no doubt," says a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got thirty four of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother. It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and respectably dressed, and looked quite nice and respectable."
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John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 4:27 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
It is interesting that this missionary claimed to know Mary Kelly, do you have any further details about who he was?
Regards
John Savage |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 190
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 5:23 pm: |
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Just a thought Chris, but even today divorce is still considered a shameful thing in Ireland. Might this John Kelly not have claimed to be widowed because he didn't want to admit the shame of being separated from his wife? Particularly if, as it would appear from this entry, he and this Mary Madden were "living in sin".
(Message edited by Ash on November 25, 2003) |
Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 115
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 5:15 am: |
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It does appear from the above entry that this John Kelly and Mary Madden were living "together". It states that he and his family are lodgers but it is just odd that she is also on her own with two children. I had thought that him and his wife were separated, even though it was a shameful thing I'm sure it still happened.
Sarah |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 9:51 am: |
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Hi, all
Since the latest issue of Ripperologist is now out, I don't think Andy and Sue Parlour will mind me mentioning the nature of their research published in our most recent 50th issue, and to which they allude above. Their discovery is that Mary Jane Kelly might have been the 18-year-old Mary Kelly, listed as an unmarried servant from Cork, at a house owned by Parliament and known as Members Mansions, Abingdon Street, Westminster, as listed in the 1881 British census. The Parlours note that the house had 21 people living there, including eleven women between ages 28 and 18 years, and they hypothesize that the house could have been a brothel that catered to members of parliament. The "head of household" was a 52-year-old woman of the name of Selina M. Shere, listed as "manageress" and she could have been the madam running the establishment. This would fit in with the story that Mary Jane Kelly was a prostitute in the West End before she came to the East End.
Best Regards
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 127
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 10:06 am: |
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Chris,
That's interesting. I just have one comment to make about it. I thought Mary didn't arrive in London until 1884, unless she lied about that. But then why would she? I can't imagine that she would think her life in the West End could have been any more shameful than her life in the East End. Also she did tell Joe that she had worked in a brothel in the West End so why would she lie about what year she came to London?
Sarah |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 736
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 10:44 am: |
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Hi Chris G
Thanks for the details about Selina Shere and her establishment. It is important to see this "household" in context in the 1881 census return for Members' Mansions - it is only one of 14 "household" listed under that designation and the heads of the other households listing as residnet at Members's Mansions are listed below. Seen in this context, Selina Shere appears to be presiding over the servants quarters needed to run a residential establishment for well connected residents and their families
Chris
1881 census
Members' Mansions
Households:
1) Head: Selina M Shere - Manageress
Staff of 7 Housemaids, 2 General Servants, 2 Kitchen Maids, 1 Working Housekeeper, 1 House Porter, 1 Indoor Manservant, 5 Indoor waiters, 1 Kitchen Porter
2) Head: Charles S C Grespigny - Captain Secretary to Public Company
3) Head: John N Malleson - Solicitor
+ 3 others
4) Head: Herbert C Drinkwwater - Contractor employing 500 men
+ 4 others
5) Head: Mary A Stockwell - born Connecticut, USA
+ 4 others
6) Head: E.S Nadal - 2nd Secretary of US Legation
7) Head: Andrew Grant - MP, Retired Merchant
8) Head: John J Bateman - Architect
+ 1 other
9) Head: John C Baremont - Exporters Clerk
+ 1 other
10) Head: Basil Harrison - Clerk in the House of Commons
+ 1 other
11) Head: William H Evans - Member of London Stock Exchange
12) Head: Amos Whiting - Interest on Investments Broker
13) Head: Robert J Price - Surgeon
+ 1 other
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Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 128
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 10:54 am: |
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It looks as if there were 13 households in this one building. If this is correct then maybe Selina Shere is the madam of a brothel. I don't know if it was legal back then but I wouldn't have thought she would put "brothel" on the census. Although she does seem to have at least 8 men noted as well. I must admit, it looks more like this Selina was in charge of the servants in this residential block as Chris S says.
Also there is the thing about whether Mary was lying about arriving in London in 1884.
Sarah |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 737
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:34 am: |
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Sarah
For reference here is a full listing of the household presided over by Selian Shere in 1881:
Servants Household:
Selia M Shere aged 52 born Bath, Somerset - Manageress
Annie Ripley aged 25 born Dulton, York - Housemaid
Elizabeth Pettengill aged 22 born Morden Guildon, Camnbridge - General Servant
Elizabeth Owen aged 25 born Holyhead, Angelsey - Housemaid
Mary A Collins aged 26 born St Clare, Cornwall - Housemaid
Clarice Simpson aged 22 born Birmingham - Kitchenmaid
Maria Steel aged 51 born Colman St, Middlesex - Housemaid
Elizabeth Abbot aged 23 born east St. Middlesex - Housemaid
Margaret Cretter aged 21 born Westminster - Housemaid
Mary Kelly aged 18 born Cork, Ireland - General Servant
Emma Taylor aged 22 born Battersea - Housemaid
Louisa Busby aged 24 born Birmingham - Kitchenmaid
Sarah Jackson aged 28 born Ringwood, Hants - Working Housekeeper
Thomas Addison aged 25 born Sandgate, Kent - House Porter
Gustave Grundel aged 23 born Dresden - Indoor waiter
Charles Marrifed (Marryiel) aged 22 born Thungen - Indoor manservant
Henry Wassen aged 31 born Nudkerken - Indoor Waiter
Joseph Duell aged 19 born Maersberg - Indoor waiter
John Wilkins aged 22 born Schleswig Holstein - Indoor waiter
William Chlors aged 24 born Schwerin - Indoor waiter
M Hoffmier aged 30 born Konigsburg - Kitchen Porter
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Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 129
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:44 am: |
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Chris,
It looks to me as if they were just servants then. Apart from the 52 year old Selina there is a 51 year old Maria Steel and I don't see them having a 51 year old prostitute in a high class brothel in the West End. Also there are 7 men and I don't know who M Hoffmier was, but as a kitchen porter I'd have said that he was a man too which would make 8 men in total.
Mary Kelly may still be our Mary Kelly but as I said before, Joe stated that Mary had told him that she had arrived in London in 1884 when she would have been 21 (if she was really born in 1863). She still told him about her past in the brothel so I see no reason for her to lie to him about what year she came to London.
Sarah |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1393
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 1:53 pm: |
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Hi
If these women were indeed domestic staff and not prostitutes, could this be a case of too many cooks spoiling the brothel?
Robert |
Sarah Long
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 142
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 12:00 pm: |
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Oh deary me.... |
Eduardo Zinna
Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 30
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 6:01 pm: |
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Hi,
Where was the German Embassy in 1881? |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 827
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 5:12 pm: |
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Regarding Kelly's family, a propos of something else I looked up the London Times press report for 14 November (which is in the Press Reports section) which contains their account of Hutchinson's testimony.
However, before they gave this account their comments included this intriguing comment:
The funeral of the murdered woman Kelly will not take place until after the arrival from Wales of some of her relatives and friends, who are expected to reach London this evening.
Anyone seen any other mention of this or know any more please?
Chris
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 182
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 6:41 pm: |
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Hi Chris
'The Manchester Evening News' for 15th November ran this little item:
"The relatives of the murdered woman, who were expected in London yesterday, have not yet arrived. The deceased had been of late years a cause of great trouble to her friends, who would not be anxious to put themselves to any trouble on her account".
Rob
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Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 6:55 pm: |
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Here is the note on Mary Kelly I made several years ago , I don't know if this information is still online but it may well be.
This is the person I believe to be Mary Kelly of 13 Miller's Court :
MARY KELLY
Born 19th April 1864
0240 Castletown District , Limerick , Ireland.
Parents : Father = John Kelly , Mother = Anne McCarthy
( Internet : Family Search )
I think Mary's father John is the person noted in the first post on this thread above. With her mother's maiden name being McCarthy as well , it might also explain why Mary is sometimes called Mary McCarthy in press reports. |
Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 31
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 8:02 pm: |
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I also found this :
JOHN KELLY
Born 19th April 1866
0199 Castletown District , Limerick , Ireland
Parents : Father = John Kelly , Mother = Anne McCarthy
(Internet : Family Search ) |
Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 32
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 4:07 am: |
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I've checked the FreeBMD and I haven't been able to find any record at all of a James Kelly or a Juhannah Kelly born in either Monmouthshire or Glamorganshire or Carmarthenshire in the 1860s.
Maybe they are adopted ? |
Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:16 pm: |
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Andy and Sue Parlour mention Mary and John Kelly in their book and that they had a brother called Peter. Here are his details from Family Search :
PETER KELLY ,
Born 29th June 1868
0194 Castletown District , Limerick , Ireland
Father = John Kelly , Mother = Anne McCarthy
Andy & Sue think that the Mary Kelly from Limerick , sister to John and Peter , is THE Mary Kelly we are looking for , and I would have to say I agree with them !
Simon |
Simon Owen
Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 45
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:20 pm: |
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This is the most likely candidate for Henry Kelly :
HENRY KELLY 1881 Census
Born Ireland 1861 , age 20 years , unmarried
Occupation - Gunner , Royal Marines Artillery
Location - "Royal Marine Artillery Barracks" Eastney (8th Co)
Census Place - Portsea, Hampshire, England
( Internet : Family Search )
(Message edited by simonowen on August 13, 2004) |
John Casey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 5:55 am: |
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In the 1871 census for Whitechapel is the following entry, which is interesting (well, I think it is anyhow! *grins*)
Address: 6 Chambers St.
Margaret Kelly, Wife, Marr., 30, Tailoress, Born Ireland, Limerick.
Mary Ann ", Daughter, 7, Scholar, Born Ire. Limerick
Margaret ", Daughter, 2, Scholar, Born Ire. Limerick
If this is our Mary, the family seems to have moved from Ireland between 1869 and 1871....However, aren't they meant to be in Wales in 1871? Fairly new to all this, so still trying to sort the timelines out in my head! |
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