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thomas schachner
Sergeant
Username: Thomas
Post Number: 16
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | 
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hi everybody,
i thought this might be of interest.
no.71 !
greetings from germany
thomas.
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Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 1:50 am: |
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Interesting to look at these numbers and realize that as medical science reduces deaths due to diseases, the murder and suicide rates go up. |
Kris Law
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 9:19 am: |
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So is this telling us that in 1887 there were NO murders or manslaughters? The ENTIRE year?
Or am I reading it wrong? |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:09 am: |
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thomas, do you know if this certifcate is an outlier? did the surrounding years have such a low murder rate? (excluding 1888 of course) |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1323
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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Hi Thomas
You do realize do you that these statistics relate, as I understand it, to persons who are domiciled in the borough of Whitechapel, don't you? That is, if Mr. Michael Maybrick of Ryde, Isle of Wight, was found shot or stabbed in Whitechapel, his murder would not be counted? Thus there could have been some homicides or woundings of non-Whitechapel people that are not included here. A sort of statistical anomoly, or as with all statistical or computational matters, to give the clean version, junk in, junk out. 
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 746
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:53 pm: |
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Hi all,
I think I found an example of one of Alex Chisholm's "Statistical Shortfalls" for Whitechapel. At least I think this happened in Whitechapel district--I'm not familiar with some of the streets, but Leman-street police station is involved, and Wynne Baxter went on to hold the inquest. So assuming this is all in Whitechapel district and that the body wasn't moved afterwards into Baxter's East Middlesex jurisdiction:
Times
7 Nov 1887
FATAL AFFRAY IN THE EAST-END.—A fatal affray occurred shortly after midnight on Saturday in Ratcliffe-highway. It appears that some women of low character, in company with men, had a violent altercation with a number of Spanish man-of-war’s men at present stopping at the Sailors’ Home, Wells-street. The disturbance commenced in a publichouse. The Spaniards, to all appearance wishing to avoid the quarrel, left the public-house and made for Wells-street. While passing through Wellclose-square, a mob attacked them on all sides with glass bottles, brickbats, sticks, and stones. Three of the Spaniards ran down Neptune-street, and on emerging into George-street, one of them was knocked down and seriously injured. The crowd still pressed round, and the injured man’s comrades drew their knives. They fought desperately, and one of them, on being struck on the head with a club, made a lunge with his knife and stabbed a man in the crowd in the groin. He fell insensible, and in a short time bled to death. The other Spaniard also seriously stabbed one of his assailants. The Spaniards subsequently made off, and the two wounded men, one of whom was by this time dead, were carried to the hospital. The police did not arrive until after the disturbance. Four Spaniards were arrested later on and lodged in Leman-street police-station.
Wynne Baxter held an inquest at London Hospital, and I believe they determined the man who was killed, James or John Brown, came from Glasgow--apparently he was not a resident of the district. A verdict of manslaughter against one Charles Edward Hammond was returned.
Cheers,
Dave
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1747
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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As I've said on another thread, people are just starting to look at cases of violent crime in this period, and very surprising cases are turning up all the time, the majority of them previously unrecorded in such studies of the time.
We have yet to await the release of the Old Bailey transcripts for this period, and they will I'm sure turn all our conceptions upside-down.
I'm quite sure that when the groundwork is done 1887 will prove to be just as violent as 1888.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1748
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Just spent half hour checking through 1887, and I'm afraid it appears that murder was as rampant as ever.
Out of 870 references to murder for that year I gave up - because I wanted a glass of brandy - after the first forty references when I found I had eight convicted murders, five convincted attempted murders, and three women murdered by having their throats cut.
I hadn't even reached March.
For a sad domestic killing by an enraged partner, using a knife, see the killing of mother and child on the 21st Jan. 1887.
Hey guys, this was half an hour!
What would I find if a gave it a whole night? |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 747
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:25 pm: |
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Hi A.P.
Are the cases you're seeing for the Whitechapel district? I think, but I'm not sure, that the Loane's statistics for Whitechapel that Thomas has reproduced for us cover Feb. 1887-Feb. 1888. Looking at my example again, I'm not at all sure it would apply to Loane. I just don't know the area well enough. That Ratcliff Hwy area (St. George's) could be an adjoining district which fell within Baxter's East Middlesex coronership.
In case anyone's interested, the Spainards were innocent. Baxter's jury did return a verdict of manslaughter against a young Swedish sailor named Charles Hammond but he was found not guilty at the Central Criminal Court.
Cheers,
Dave |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:15 pm: |
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Dave
I looked at those cases in half hour flat, on my way to bed with a brandy glass in my hand.
All were in the Middlesex sessions.
It is my good guess that many cases never reached the statistics.
I'm going to look again when I get some time.
But I can say that in 1887 there was a definite lack of what we might call 'sensational' murder cases, just the usual sad procession of domestic violence and abuse of women in general. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1751
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
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Oh, and I forgot to mention I floated a case of clear murder past Robert the other night, a prostitute murdered in a lodging house - not the case 1863 that Robert posted, but another - where the poor girl was horribly mutilated and murdered, sexually assaulted with her stays and stockings ripped off, her room trashed... and the good doctor called to the scene pronounced that the girl had suffered a fit!
So you see, this wasn't a murder. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4124
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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This snippet from an item of May 18th 1895 seems to herald the advent of a more scientific approach to crime figures - just too late for our purposes.
Robert |
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