| Author |
Message |
    
Faye
Sergeant
Username: Faye
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | 
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Hello all
I don't know if this subject has been discussed here in the past (it most likely has been) but could it be possible that Jack used ether or chloroform to drug his victims before engaging in his "work"?
It would explain why in some cases no cries were heard and why the victims were lying down without marks of struggle (please correct me if I am misinformed). As far as I could find out, there was no way for a medical man to discover the usage of these anesthetics during authopsy.
It is just something I have been thinking about for a while and I would love to hear what some of the conclusions you people had on this matter are.
Faye |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 282
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
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Faye,
The problem with ether and chloroform is that they aren't instant - if the Ripper had used either of them, there would be forensic evidence.
I'm not sure when chloroform and ether were able to be detected via toxicological screens, but you would expect to find bruising and cuts on the soft tissues in the mouth, the lips, etc. because the woman would have struggled with the Ripper until the ether/chloroform took effect. We know that these types of bruises, cuts or abrasions weren't present.
Plus, you've got to consider that this is another thing he'd have to carry around and make sure he had, which adds another level of complexity to it.
It's an interesting idea, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence to indicate that it happened. At least, not in my opinion.
B |
Caroline Anne Morris
Detective Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 3:41 am: |
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Hi Faye,
From The News of the World, Sunday 7 October 1888:
...and we are told that no chloroform or any other subtle agent has been employed to stupefy the victims preparatory to their murder. No one ventures to say, however, in what manner they were silenced.
It would appear that if they were unable in those days to detect whether or not Jack used chloroform, they were not readily admitting to any such gap in their forensic expertise.
Love,
Caz |
Martin Fido
Police Constable
Username: Fido
Post Number: 10
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 6:50 am: |
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Ether and chloroform being relatively difficult for the poor and uneducated to obtain, the means of stifling used before open-air murder attempts in the early nineteenth century was pitch-smothering - holding a handful of soft tar or pitch over the victim's nose and mouth while gripping them round the neck from behind. Obviously the Ripper didn't do this!
All the best,
Martin F |
Andrew Spallek
Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 2:20 pm: |
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A very quick and unexpected slash severing the windpipe and key arteries and possibly fracturing the larynx is all that would be needed to silence the victim. A slaughterman could probably do it in his sleep!
Andy
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Faye
Sergeant
Username: Faye
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 2:52 pm: |
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Thanks for your replies.
The thing that confuses me is the following:
According to what I read the victims were killed while they were already lying on the ground. As far as I know (I am far from an expert ofc) there are no defensive wounds. In the case of Liz Stride (whether she is a ripper victim or not is ofc the question) she was found still holding the pack of cachous, which points imo to instant death or at least being caught by suprise. If someone tries to suffocate you, you struggle. I believe that these women were either smothered (by placing a hand over the mouth or something to that extent) or drugged in some way.
Of course the slashing of the throat would be something to stop them from crying out, but they were already on the floor when it was done. and according to my knowledge it was not costumary for prostitutes to do their business lying on the ground, especially not since the weather in the period of the murders was far from nice and the streets were obviously very dirty.
I do remember reading somewhere that a trick midwifes used as a natural anesthetic is to put pressure on a certain point (I am sorry but I do not know the english term of it, it is close to the collar bone) so it cuts off blood supply to the brain. and there were bruises found. Could that perhaps explain it?
Just rambling here. If it is something that has been brought up, I didnt read about it 
(I must admit that eventhough I do have a general knowledge of the case I am often impressed by the things I read here and in the presence of people I consider an authority on the matter like for instance mr Fido, I feel very small ;))
Faye
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Brad McGinnis
Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 8:23 pm: |
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Faye, You may have stumbled onto something here before unnoticed. The pressure piont near the collar bone. Could it be JTR was a Vulcan? |
Faye
Sergeant
Username: Faye
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 8:45 pm: |
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Brad, in all seriousness, it was used in the past by midwifes because it does induce unconsciousness.
Spock stole it from them, honestly ;) |
Brad McGinnis
Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 9:06 pm: |
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Youre right Faye. And besides if JTR was a Vulcan, Spock would have reconized him on Argilia in the episode "Wolf in the Fold" |
Martin Fido
Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:24 pm: |
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Folks! I suggested 16 years ago that the evidence of asphyxiation and bruising to the neck areas, coupled with the left-to-right throat-cutting, indicated the probability that the Ripper
(i) Incapacitated his victims by throttling them (inducing unconsciousness in a very short time - though a precise minute and second count invariably produces argument)
(ii) Pushing them on to the ground from right to left, because he was probably right-handed.
(iii) Cutting the throats as they lay there by drawing the knife toward himself, which would ensure that the blood spurting from the carotid artery flowed away from him, and the body shielded him from it.
I also think it likely that the last point was pure serendipity - it's unlikely that he worked it out in advance.
All the best,
Martin F |
Andrew Spallek
Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:23 am: |
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Hello Martin,
I have you to thank for fueling my interest in the case by bringing the sights alive as I took your walking tour some 13 years ago (though somewhat to my wife's chagrin -- nonetheless when ever I watch a documentary in which you appear I always shout "Martin's on" and she comes running  ).
Your reasoning above is sound, though perhaps not conclusive. Logically, in order to slash his victims' throats he must either be (1) behind them, drawing the knife toward himself, (2) in front of them, bracing the victim against a solid object such as a wall, or (3) as you hypothesize, kneeling or crouching beside them as they lay senseless on the ground.
(1) is problematic in that it is an awkward position for cutting and also presents problems in explaining how he could get into such a position while conversing with his victim.
(2) has the advantage of being in the right preliminary position but would almost certainly leave blood spatters on the wall and on the killer. No extreme spatters on walls are mentioned in the reports.
(3) is a good suggestion. A man with great arm strength could rather easily clamp down so tightly around the neck of a small woman as to cut off her air supply. If no air is coming in, then also no air, and hence no sound, could be going out -- explaining the lack of screams. The difficulty I see with this is that I would assume that a person would at least partially revive almost instantly when pressure is released from the windpipe. The human brain passes out quickly when deprived of oxygen, but revivies just as quickly when oxygen is restored (assuming it has not been deprived of oxygen long enough to induce death, which would take many minutes).
Andy
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Martin Fido
Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:27 am: |
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Quite agree it's not conclusive, Andy. And fully acknowledge that I have no medical training, and just try to put together conclusions from what I read about the effects of cutting off oxygen.
Regards to your lady wife,
and
All the best,
Martin F |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:54 pm: |
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Mr. Fido's point (ii) would seem to indicate that the murderer did kill Elizabeth Stride. It would seem at least a provisionally confirmative factor.
I also liked Mr. Hengst in Bloch's 'Wolf in the Fold' episode. His immortal line "Die! Die! Die! Everybody die! ran through my head for several years.
Saddam |
Valerie S
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 4:19 pm: |
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Faye, I had been pondering the "pressure points" theory too. How about strangulation? The protrusion and lacerations of the tongues as well as bruising around the jaw could suggest this.
Valerie |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:50 am: |
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Valerie,
I believe that it is possible that there was a combination - that the Ripper may have grabbed the victims by the throat to squelch a scream, and punched her in the jaw to take any fight out of her, or to possibly knock her out. This would have allowed him to lower her to the ground and perform his cuts.
It would explain the facial brusing and the tongue lacerations.
Can someone with more medical knowledge let me know if this is possible?
B |
Daniel
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 1:43 am: |
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It is my beleif that the ripper merely drew, cut, and covered her mouth until the unfortunate victim died. He then did as he wished undisturbed. One must realize that many prostitutes of that area carried bruises. It was a part of their lives.
D |
Andrew Spallek
Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 30
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 1:46 pm: |
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There is one other factor I realize I have neglected and that is time. I am not medically trained, but I think it common knowledge that while a person will probably lose consciousness if deprived of oxygen for less than a minute (unless very well conditioned), that person would not suffocate to death until several minutes have passed. If we assume, due to lack of blood spatters from severed arteries, that JTR strangled his victims to death before cutting their throats, precious time would have been lost. This is especially critical in the Eddowes case as he had such a small envelope of opportunity. If he did not strangle them to death first, then we must account for the lack of blood spatters.
Andy
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Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 12:41 am: |
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Maybe Jack was a vampire? |
Maryanne
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 6:56 pm: |
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Did any of them have bite marks Eric? Lmao! |
Marsh
Police Constable
Username: Marsh
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
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Hi all, on the post mortems of the victims at no time was any reference made to there being any kind of substances in any of the bodies. |
