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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Martha Tabram » 'Pearl Poll' « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 06, 2003Gary Alan Weatherhea25 6-06-03  12:30 pm
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Robert Charles Linford
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Post Number: 234
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Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 3:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne

Poll was interviewed by the police, and walked along two lines of soldiers in broad daylight, and nobody noticed anything?

PS Don't feel bad about depriving Pearly Poll of the "y" in her name. After all, you've given her a Y chromosome as compensation!

Robert
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Leanne Perry
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Username: Leanne

Post Number: 380
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

GARY: I just noticed three spelling mistakes in your last post: 'ovr', 'slso', and 'RVEALED'!....SHAME ON YOU!

I'm glad you didn't think my spelling booboo was worth pointing out. I did ask Stephen to fix it, but he must have already left for his holiday.

I've noticed how unflattering some drawings of Liz were too, but look at the mortuary photo of her, (one appears in 'The Ultimate Companion'). She would have been quite attractive/feminine looking.

If it was so common for these women to look mannish, it's no wonder the police didn't ask 'her' to drop her pants! That would have only added to the public's critical feelings of them at the time! It would have been too risky to have been proven wrong!

LEANNE
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Sergeant
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Verd Taggert

Please accept my apology. I mentioned you as a 'previous poster' when I called your post pedantic. I should have mentioned you by name, quoted you and then made my comment. A long while ago I had an individual refer to one of my posts indirectly through a post intended for a third party and I was not pleased.

No-one has prompted me to make this post. Upon reflection I feel it is a matter of common courtesy.

Best Regards
Gary
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Robert Charles Linford
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Post Number: 237
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Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne

The only spelling mistake that I regard as at all serious, is that you keep spelling "Ripper" as "Barnett"!

Would you reconsider if I told you Joe was really Josephine?

Robert
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
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Username: Garyw

Post Number: 17
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Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne

I stand before you to make the shameful confession that I type so badly I fear my posts
are especially prone to typological mistakes.

Regarding Liz Stride, I believe her to have been a striking looking woman in her youth with a vestige of that still remaining in the morgue photograph.

Now if you find any spelling mistakes or typos in this post I fear I shall top myself.

Best regards
Gary
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Brian W. Schoeneman
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Username: Deltaxi65

Post Number: 274
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Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert,

You are my hero for the week.

B
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Brad McGinnis
Police Constable
Username: Brad

Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 9:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All,
Regarding mistakes on this thread and the Pearly Poll.....where do I vote?
Brad
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica

Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whatho all,

Please be kind to us dislec... dyxles.... dyslexics, I am trying to post without the help of a spellchequer er spelldrughts, no spellchecker.

Yes is dyslexia so difficult to spells?

Cheers, Mark who really is a dyslexic but doesn't mind the jokes
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Robert Charles Linford
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Post Number: 244
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Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 3:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Mark

I sympathise with your dyslexia. I had it myself last night, but a glass of Andrews did the trick.
I hear peppermints are supposed to be good for it, too.

Regards
Trebor
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Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd

Post Number: 24
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 8:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

People is watching too much Ali G

:-)
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Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty

Post Number: 96
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mark,

The Dyslexic Societys rendition of Old MacDonald..

'Old MacDonald had a farm...F B F B C,
and on that farm he had a GOD..F B F B C
...with a Foow, Foow, here...and a Foow, Foow there..'

You know the rest !!

Monty


PS Robert,

Ripper....Barnett....very good !


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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica

Post Number: 82
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Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 7:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You rotton boggers



Cheers, Mark
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Leanne Perry
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Post Number: 396
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Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 7:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

If we can't agree that JtR or any other Whitechapel murdrer could have disguised himself as a woman at any stage to avoid detection, then what hope have we got?

LEANNE
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Leanne Perry
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Username: Leanne

Post Number: 397
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Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 7:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

This is the first place I'd start looking!!!

LEANNE
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Robert Charles Linford
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Post Number: 255
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 7:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne

Surely it's one thing for a female impersonator to inveigle drunken, hungover or sick prostitutes into a secluded place, at night (though why Jack would need to masquerade as a woman, I don't understand). But it's another thing for a female impersonator to fool soldiers, policemen, court officials and everyone else in broad daylight. If they didn't notice anything, what hope did THEY have?

And even if "she" did manage to deceive these people, wouldn't their guide dogs have spotted something?

Robert
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Brian W. Schoeneman
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Post Number: 278
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 1:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne,

We can grasp at straws all day. But we don't have to - there is ample evidence and information that we can use that doesn't rely on improbables.

Of course we can agree that the Ripper COULD have dressed as a woman. But we don't need to agree that it is LIKELY. Because it's not.

B
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Leanne Perry
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 5:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

ROBERT: Guide dogs?..Guide dogs?.... do you think they were blind?...literally? There were no guide dogs, mate! The suggestion of being able to use bloodhounds came later!

Anyway, do you think that a guide dog could have could have been trained to look up peoples skirts and say: "Oh master, I just found something that's not supposed to be there, Arrrrr!'

BRIAN: Where is this "ample evidence and information"? Where is it written that they even considered this?

LEANNE
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Christopher T George
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 5:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Certainly Jack could have dressed as a woman. Famed British female impersonator Danny La Rue has done it successfully for years--

Danny La Rue
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Robert Charles Linford
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 6:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, you could be onto something here. Doesn't Danny La Rue sing "On Mary Kelly's Doorstep"? -
or something like that.

Very suspicious.

Robert
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica

Post Number: 84
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 6:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes Chris, but we always realised he was a man.

Cheers, Mark who knows the difference
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Brian W. Schoeneman
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Post Number: 279
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 9:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne,

"BRIAN: Where is this "ample evidence and information"? Where is it written that they even considered this?"

I was talking about the case in general. We don't need wild, totally unsupportable theories when we have lots of evidence that we can analyze to make theories that aren't wild and totally unsupportable.

B
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Leanne Perry
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Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

OK Brian, go ahead, make one!

LEANNE
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Brian W. Schoeneman
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Post Number: 280
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Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 7:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne,

I'm working on it.

B
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Richard Brian Nunweek
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Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 5:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,
On a lightheated note, the song On mother kellys doorstep' contains a line 'He sits along nellie , she sits along Joe her Beau"
Richard.
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Robert Charles Linford
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Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 6:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Richard

Thanks for pointing that out! Things are looking blacker and blacker for Danny La Rue, for I think
there is also the line "Down Providence Row".

It's no good, Richard, I can see we are going to have to call in Chris Scott's census skills on this one too!

Robert
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Sarah
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Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just wanted to add to this post as I think Leanne is getting too much stick here for a very interesting and possible idea. It's a better idea than many I've heard on here.

Sarah
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patricia
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Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 8:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi in my research I came across a mary Conelly (similar name to pearly Poll)a down and out. She was murdered in Usk by an army man called Thomas Edwards. He slit her throat and was hanged in 1892ish. He said she reminded him of somebody who had stole money from an Army friend, or something like that. Cant find out any more about it. If somebody could access newspaper archives it could be interesting.
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Trish
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Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 4:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another interesting fact.....Mary Connoly shown as living at Mitre Court.This is shown on 1881 census.
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Phil Hill
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Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 9:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One very good reason for not checking whether Poll was a man, at the time, is that she was clearly a woman (however masculine looking)!!

The East End in 1888 must have been full of men and women trying to conceal their identities; and among the "fallen women" many who lacked the looks to be more than at the bottom of the heap. Martha Tabram was no "beauty" either from her post-mortem photo; but she was still clearly a woman, and made at least some money by selling herself. Why not Pearly Poll?

Finally, I think soldiers and others who consorted with Poll might have had a shock - and we would have heard about it - had "she" raised her skirts and revealed manly attributes. Perhaps Poll's profession is the most telling evidence of all.

Phil
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Ditto
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Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All
I have been following this discussion with interest and wonder if this information might be relevant or, at the very least, amusing.
In the 1881 Census I found a "James(Mary)Connolly" aged 41, born Wolverhampton,occupation Foreman Plasterer.
He is living with his wife Agnes aged 34 and five children at 13 Elliotts Gardens.
Some questions to consider:
Why is his name recorded as "Mary"?
Are these the same James and Agnes mentioned in the Islington Gazette Wednesday October 10 1888?
Is this just another one of those strange coincidences?
I leave this information in your very capable hands.
Kind regards Di
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Diana
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Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dont know but I just read in The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion (pg 12) that Pearly Poll said the man who Tabram went with called himself "Skipper". I know he was a soldier or at least dressed like one, but doesn't the nickname "Skipper" have nautical overtones?
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 1405
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Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yes Skipper is a position on a ship.
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

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Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 3:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
I believe Tabram went with a soldier of corporal Rank, although not the highest rank in the British army, he might have been nicknamed skipper, as he considered himself the boss.
Richard.
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Phil Hill
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Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 8:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There used (World war Two period) to be "nicknames" that went with certain Christian/fore names:

"Dusty" Miller
"Chalky" White etc

I don't know whether "Skipper" might have had a link to a particular name.

On the James (Mary) Connolly mentioned, could this be an Irish/catholic thing? I am thinking of the German actor Klaus MARIA Brandauer.

Hope I got the spelling right!!

Phil
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Ditto
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Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Diana
Are you suggesting "Jack the Skipper"?
It does sound "nautical".
Perhaps it was a nickname or is related to some other occupation.
I'll see if I can find anything about the term "Skipper".
Here is something else worth considering:
The "East London Advertiser" 25th August 1888 states that Pearly Poll was "staying with her cousin,'Mrs Shean'of 4 Fullers-Court, Drury Lane", whilst the police were looking for her.
I wondered if anyone knew of 'Mrs Shean's' whereabouts in 1891,as I have found an interesting possible entry for her/him?? in the 1881 census.
Kind regards Di
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Ditto
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Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 7:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
Maybe the simplest explanation is that his surname was 'Skipper'!
There are many people wih the surname 'Skipper' listed in the 1881 Census.
Were the two men really soldiers or were they identified as such because they were in uniform?
Could the uniforms have been used in some other occupation?
Regards Di
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg

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Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Di

Sure the uniform could have been used in the occupation of Sixties rock star...

Jimi

laugh
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Ditto
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Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris
Thanks, I get your point, a soldier is a soldier is a soldier.
I wouldn't confuse Jimi Hendrix with a nineteenth century soldier (nice pic by the way)but I wondered whether Pearly Poll might have confused a soldier's uniform with another kind of uniform.
Obviously you think not.
Perhaps you could give your opinion on the James(Mary) Connolly listing in the Census.
Phil,
Yes, perhaps it is an Irish/Catholic thing or (cue Twilight Zone music) perhaps it's something else!
Thanks for your comments and humour
Kind Regards Di

"When I die just keep playing the records" Jimi Hendrix
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Nina Thomas
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Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne,

I donít see this as a far fetched idea. I believe that Pearly Poll (Mary Ann Connelly) may have been a male transvestite/cross dresser. The description of her, being missing for two days when she knew she was needed, her emphasis on ďHe ainít hereĒ during the line up, and her refusal to speak at the inquest because her chest felt queer. It seems to me that she feared being found out and being charged by the court.

The following article from the Star, dated November 12, 1888, shows that this sort of behavior was unlawful.
IN WOMAN'S CLOTHES.
A man dressed in woman's clothing was arrested on suspicion in Goswell-road on Saturday night. He proved he could have had nothing to do with the murder, and said he put female attire on only "for a lark," but he will be brought before the magistrate charged with having done it for an unlawful purpose.

I recently viewed a documentary on prostitution where a prostitute stated that she rarely had sex with her clients. She stated that their were numerous tricks of the trade (She did not go into detail) that could be used to make the client believe that they had indeed had sex. Why not the same for a male transvestite/cross dresser?

Iím sure women transvestites/cross dresserís were plentiful also, as a way for a woman to advance her status. The following link is a prime example.
http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/barry.html

Nina
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Nina Thomas
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Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just wanted to make it clear that I do not believe that Pearly Poll was the ripper.

Nina
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Ditto
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Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Nina
I don't believe Pearly Poll was the Ripper either.
I agree that there was something strange about 'her' though.
I also don't have a problem believing that there were transvestites making a living on the streets, just as there were 'rentboys'.
As I have mentioned before, I would be very interested to know whether the entry in the 1881 census for James(Mary)Connolly was in fact Pearly Poll!
If this is the case where was he/she in 1901?
Regards Di
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Neil K. MacMillan
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Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 1:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Given the time lag and admittedly,situating time of death is tricky even today,I think the soldiers were customers who finished their business and went on their way. Pearly Poll could have confused a naval uniform for a soldiers uniform but I seriously doubt it. Both women were plying their trade in Whitechapel which meant a fair portion of their custom would have been sailors from both the Royal Navy and the merchant vessels in port. In Tabram's case I would not rule out a sailor who picked her up after her tryst with the unnamed soldier was over. Neil
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Phil Hill
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Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wasn't aware that the Royal Navy used the Port of London/London Docks in 1888 or since. Chatham was the major naval base on the Thames.

That does not, of course mean that there might not have been RN sailors around, but in my view it is unlikely that they would come from RN ships nearby.

In 1888 it would have been even more difficult than now to confuse a soldier and a sailor. Soldiers wore their scarlet tunics as walking out dress, with a peaked cap. Some regiments and the Artillery wore blue, it is true, but the cut of their clothing was completely different from that of the Royal Navy.

Sailors from the Fleet would have worn blue tunics with a fall collar of white relatively open at the neck. Soldiers had a high/stand-up closed collar. The sailor's hat was peakless and round and totally distinctive.

Given the place of the RN in national affections in 1888 (one year after the Golden Jubilee), and the familiarity of their garb in countless pictures and adverts (John Player Senior Service cigarettes for instance) I doubt anyone in the East End would have made the mistake you imply possible.

Edited to add that, even in a dark alley the silhouette of a Victorian soldier and sailor were totally different. A soldier had tight fitting trousers/overalls, while a sailors trousers were widely flared. Soldiers (except pioneers/sappers) could have a moustache but no beard. Sailors could be clean shaven, but if bearded it had to be a "full set"(beard, moustache and sideburns).

Merchant sailors would have worn whatever attire they fancied, I suppose, but peaked caps, polo-neck sweaters and reefer jackets might have been popular among them.

But why should we suppose a sailor picking up Tabram, over soldiers who are attested to have been in her company? I don't question that the soldiers might have been long gone by the time she was killed, but at least she was seen in their company.

I see no evidence, or even the basis of speculation, for a sailor. If a sailor, on your grounds, why not equally a rabbi, a shop-keeper, another denizen of the doss-houses, or a policemen? There were enough of all of those around in the East End that night too.

Phil

(Message edited by Phil on April 28, 2005)

(Message edited by Phil on April 28, 2005)
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Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith

Post Number: 134
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 3:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil;
I don't know that the Royal Navy was stationed in the London area. My speculation about sailors is just that and not meant to be solid evidence. if you read my post I suggest that and I quote " A fair portion of their custome would have been sailors from both the Royal Navy and merchant vessels inport."
It is as I stated a supposition. You are of course correct when you state there is no basis for it being a sailor and indeed it could well be a denizen of the neighborhood. Also please note that I said and I quote; "I would not rule out a sailor who picked her up afterr her tryst with the soldier." Again we are dealing in theory here and will be as I doubt we will find anything conclusive at this stage that has not already been found. Please also note that I say Poll could have confused the two uniforms but that I seriously doubted that she would (mainly for the reasons you suggest)
There is no reason to suggest that my suppositions are right and given the state of forensic science at the time it is possible that the soldier she trysted with killed her but I believe she met someone else after the rendezvous with the soldier. I base this on the time lag. I mention a sailor mainly because of the proximity of the docks. I concede that there is no proof. It is speculative discussion meant to draw out other views and hopefully come to a fuller understanding of the caser. Kindest regards, Neil
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2030
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 5:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Commonly, marines - who were sailors in them days - and other serving troops were stationed in the great parks of London in tented encampments, simply because there was a lack of suitable permanent accommodation for them in the capital during the early and LVP.
The Old Bailey transcripts do reveal a great deal of traffic between the whores of the capital and such tented camps.
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil

Post Number: 436
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your posts says it all, Neil. You are free to speculate, but I see no evidence to support confusion between soldier and RN sailor.

As to merchant sailors, I believe a recent book, discussed on here has once again raised the issue of a sailor from a (German?) ship visiting London being the killer.

I regret that I personally don't place too much faith in such an approach.

Phil

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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil

Post Number: 437
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your posts says it all, Neil. You are free to speculate, but I see no evidence to support confusion between soldier and RN sailor.

As to merchant sailors, I believe a recent book, discussed on here has once again raised the issue of a sailor from a (German?) ship visiting London being the killer.

I regret that I personally don't place too much faith in such an approach.

Phil

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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello
Catholics often take a female name as either second name or the third "confirmation" name. The name is usually that of a saint, Mary or that of a particularly pious aunt. It was always a source of much amusement when confirmation time came around at school......

Mr Poster
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Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith

Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil;
Rereading severeal months after the fact a thought comes to mind. Pearly Poll didn't identify the soldiers when they were paraded. A strong possibility in my mind is that she was drunk enough to not really remember what they looked like. After all, how long would a back alley knee trembler take?
Obviously, you are right about the attire of the enlisted sailor of both the Royal Navy)and the U.S. Navy as well during that time that prompts a question. What was the walking out dress of the Royal Navy officer during the period?
I agree with your remarks on the recognizable nature the Royal Navy uniform would have. And My apologies. My argument was not stated as clearly as it could have been. I'm certainly not trying to besmerch the reputation of the Royal Navy or sailors in general. (I spent too much time in the US Navy riding the haze gray express myself) My argument was that while there is testimony that the pair were with soldiers, the time in between was sufficient to cast serious doubt on a soldier as the murderer. Have a splendid weekend, Kindest regards, Neil

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