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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 191
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 8:03 pm: | 
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Greetings party,
The Book of Lists (1977) gives their tally of the top ten Ripper victims in chronological order.
They were:
1. Emma Smith
2. Martha Tabram
3. Mary Nichols
4. Annie Chapman
5. Elizabeth Stride
6. Catharine Eddowes
7. Mary Kelly
8. Elizabeth Jackson
9. Alice McKenzie
10. Frances Coles
My list to follow.
Best regards,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 192
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 8:27 pm: |
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Hi all,
I'm basically a c.5 guy but here's my top ten list in order of percentage of liklihood with comment:
1. Annie Chapman-99%-In my opinion, this is the murder that anchors all the rest. The only reason I don't say 100% is because there are no absolutes here.
2. Catharine Eddowes-98%-Virtually identical to Chapman's slaying. The only reason I don't say 99% on this one as well is because there is a slight chance that this could have been a copycat crime.
3. Mary Nichols-95%-A little less likely only because there are no organs missing as far as we know.
4. Mary Kelly-90%-Still more differences.
5. Elizabeth Stride-60%-A lot of differences but perhaps explainable.
6. Emma Smith-40%-This is the one that will get everyone's knickers in a knot but he had to start somewhere. Was it here?
7. Martha Tabram-35%-The soldier business puts this down a ways on my list.
8. Alice McKenzie-30%-Out of the time frame but who knows?
9. Annie Millwood-25%-Kind of like Tabram but what's that worth? I do believe that the attack contributed to her death. The coincidence is just too much.
10. Rose Mylett-10%-Was it even a murder? Maybe it was interrupted as has been asserted with Stride.
There you have it. Any comment or a list of your own?
Best wishes,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on June 27, 2005) |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3636
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Interesting thread, which might lead to many controversial conclusions.
I use the percentage too, but as far as elaborated comments are concerned, I have put them forward many times on other occasions so I prefer not to repeat myself, apart from some more crucial exceptions.
1. Annie Chapman - 100%.
2. Catharine Eddowes - 99%.
3. Polly Nichols - 90%.
4. Elizabeth Stride - 40%.
Probably a domestic related killing, in my view, by someone she knew, and maybe even a lame attempt of a copy-cat considering the throat cut, but the coincidence with the Eddowes murder nevertheless brings her up to 40.
5. Mary Kelly - 35%.
In my mind most likely a domestic personal copy-cat killing committed by someone very close to her. Performed a short time after the worst height of the Ripper hysteria and quite possibly inspired by paper accounts and exaggerated words on the street about the Ripper murders and the Eddowes murder in particular.
6. Ada Wilson - 35%.
Can't really define why, but something tells me that this is the kind of psychological behaviour and a character I would expect to see in the early Ripper. Just a hunch and a gut feeling; nothing scientific.
7. Annie Millwood - 35%.
8. Martha Tabram - 30%.
Most likely killed by a client going berzerk and probably a soldier, but like many of the other pre-Nichols killings, can't be totally ruled out.
9. Alice McKenzie - 25%.
Probably a copy-cat and killed by a client.
10. Frances Coles - 10-15%. Probably killed by Sadler, maybe as a copy-cat attempt.
I am not even bothering to put poor Emma Smith on the list, since I do not believe the Ripper was a member of a gang and I see no reason why she should lie if she was attacked by a lone assailant; surely she would feel more compelled to lie and be afraid for her safety as a victim of a gang, but she didn't so therefore I see no reason to doubt her word; most certainly she was a victim of thugs similar to the Old Nichols or the High Rip gang.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on June 27, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 194
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
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Hi Glenn,
Coles would be my #11. Mylett's there because I needed 10. I didn't include Wilson because she didn't die but that's OK and we've already extensively gone over the Smith matter. It would be scary if we agreed too much.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3637
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 10:27 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Well, since it was stated "victims" it doesn't necessarily have to mean dead ones; you can be victims of an attack just the same. That's why I put Ada Wilson up there.
I would put Mylett last anyway (or at least above Emma Smith), so that's why I didn't put her there.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 195
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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Hi Glenn,
Non-fatal victims are fine. I have no problem with that if anyone chooses to include them. Most would say that Millwood was a non-fatal.
Regards,
Stan |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 5:22 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
What's your reasoning behind the ranking of Catharine Eddowes and Polly Nichols? I'd place them both up at 100% along with Annie Chapman. That's a given to me.
"My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah!"
-Mike Tyson-
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3639
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:22 am: |
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Hi Peter,
Yes, I agree with you there, actually.
If I should trust the facts and my gut feeling Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes are certainly killed by the same killer; it was just to point out some of the differences between them, although I do not believe those differences are relevant. Eddowes stands out on two points, the attack on the face and the taking of a kidney in addition to the womb, and Nichols wasn't opened up that much and no objects were taken.
But I agree, I really should have rated all three of them with 100%. Unfortunately the editing function no longer can be used on that post.
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 196
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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Hello all,
On that original The People's Almanac Presents The Book of Lists tally, I'm not sure why they put Elizabeth Jackson on there. She'd rate somewhere between 0 and 1% with me. I think I could come up with 6 or 7 possibles as good or better than her. Maybe views were different in 1977.
Regards,
Stan |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 644
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
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Stan...
Not only were views different in '77,but I was thinner...
I don't have a list of ten. Only 4 for sure...
I agree with Peter,that Chapman,Nichols,Eddowes are all Ripper victims...only difference is Stride...I used to want to bet the farm on Kelly...but...from reading the list of whack jobs that A.P. Wolf has dredged up...Kelly isn't the slam dunk victim of the Ripper to me as I once thought,although I think she was the woman, without a doubt, in that room.
Bottle of Christian Bros. brandy on its way,A.P. !
HowBrown
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3644
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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Howie,
You're not the only one who was thinner in '77...
All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 198
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Hi all,
I was married in 1977 so I was fatter then. In 77, I believe several were still pushing to get Tabram "made" victim status. That list however only had an * by the usual five.
Best regards,
Stan |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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Glenn,
Hi. You indicated that you thought the Mary Kelly murder was a copy-cat killing. Can you explain exactly what you mean by the term "copy-cat." Thanks.
c.d. |
Catherine Ann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 7:14 pm: |
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What exactly would the killer be copying regarding Mary Kelly since she was cut up more ferociously than the previous ripper victims? I think it more probable she was another Ripper victim, possibly the last, and he just went to town on her. Maybe because he'd reached the height of his "career" or felt secure in his environments he could go to work on her like that. Nothing here convinces me that Kelly was not a victim of the ripper. I don't think a "first timer" would go to such extremes. The person must've had a cast iron stomach in doing what he did to this poor woman otherwise he'd be sick all over the place. He'd gotten plenty of practice in with the previous women he slayed. |
Catherine Ann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 7:14 pm: |
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What exactly would the killer be copying regarding Mary Kelly since she was cut up more ferociously than the previous ripper victims? I think it more probable she was another Ripper victim, possibly the last, and he just went to town on her. Maybe because he'd reached the height of his "career" or felt secure in his environments he could go to work on her like that. Nothing here convinces me that Kelly was not a victim of the ripper. I don't think a "first timer" would go to such extremes. The person must've had a cast iron stomach in doing what he did to this poor woman otherwise he'd be sick all over the place. He'd gotten plenty of practice in with the previous women he slayed. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 302
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 8:15 pm: |
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Hi Cath,
How about giving us your top ten list Old Girl? Just kidding! Thanks for the thoughts.
Stan |
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