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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1856
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:59 pm: | 
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Just happened across a useful news story in The Times from 1849 where ‘respectable’ women are being ‘spiked’ by villains in Flower and Dean Street using some - as yet unknown - ‘delirious drug’ which renders them totally unconscious, said victims are then dragged back to the lodging houses in Flower & Dean Street and robbed… not sure yet whether rapes occurred.
My thinking is that if some thirty to forty years before 1888 such drugs were being used to render females insensible to either rape or rob them, then in 1888 the subtle art must have evolved somewhat, and such a narcotic substance in the hands of a killer would have been entirely useful in rendering their victim insensible.
If a ‘respectable’ woman could be ‘spiked’ then one assumes an ‘unfortunate’ might be even more susceptible.
Whatever, it is an interesting insight.
(The Times, 22nd June 1849, search term: flower and dean street). |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4246
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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AP, interesting find. I wonder if it was in the rum - strong taste to mask the drug.
I take it you're envisaging a hip flask in the street job for JTR, rather then a pub meeting?
Robert |
Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 353
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
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AP,
This is a very interesting account indeed! One would think that an 'unfortunate' might well be susceptible. In the case of Stride, I'm not sure that drugs were involved.. But the other victims I can see the possibility. Which, to my thinking, may well rule out Stride as a victim afterall.
As you say, Robert, maybe a hip flask, rather than gin or beer at the pub.
Interesting, AP, and thank you!
Bestest,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1860
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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Yes, Robert, I can't see Jack using it like us moderns as a 'date-rape' drug in the pub.
But as ever, you get to the logical end while I'm still at my illogical beginning.
But maybe the idea of your hip flask is not really so wacky, it was the fashion, and I could imagine any 'unfortunate' being invited to take a peck from a silver hip flask jumping at the task.
'Here, you poor unfortunate, you look terribly cold, take a drink from my silver hip flask, presentation model from Scotland Yard don't you know, just keep your throat still while I line up my toy dagger, thank you very much.'
Lyn, thanks for your kind comments.
I just thought it was an area that had not been much explored, and should be. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4248
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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AP, if I remember right, the idea of the hip flask was suggested by you yourself - Uncle Charles waylaying Kate as she emerged from BPS and proffering her an (undoctored) swig.
Robert |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 560
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
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Makes you want to rethink blotchy face. What really was in that bucket or perhaps was added to it later? After all she sang for awhile didn't she? |
Nina Thomas
Inspector
Username: Nina
Post Number: 240
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:46 am: |
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I wrote an article for Ripperologist #56 concerning the use of mickey finns and Eddowes. Chloral hydrate mixed with alcohol constitutes a mickey finn. It only takes a very small amount and the victim will be out within 15-30 minutes and stay out for about 4 hours. It was used medically beginning in 1869 and many alcoholics soon became addicted to it. Interesting that you mention Mr. blotchy face as one of the many side effects of use is a rash.
I’m puzzled as to what was used in the 1849 article.
Nina |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:16 am: |
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Where have you been AP?
I've suggested much the same thing on more than one occasion in the past - a drop of something far more potent, disguised in the drop of something warming, offered to a poor gal on a chilly night, something possibly undetectable (or unlooked for) in a victim obviously floored by the gash to her throat.
We have accounts of drunken behaviour, but precious little alcohol was actually found in the bodies.
Hi Lyn,
It would make sense of a lot of things to me. But I don't see why this would necessarily rule Liz out as a victim. If Jack did encounter Liz, he could have got off on the wrong foot with her, resulting in her wanting nothing to do with him (and perhaps his blotchy face was particularly vile close up  ), including accepting a drink that would only encourage his attentions.
But Jack would have had reason not to offer on such an occasion. He needed his victims both conscious and compliant until they reached a suitable location for his mutilation plans. If he gave them a drug mixed with drink, he had to judge how quickly it would remove inhibitions, and how soon after that the power to walk. A victim blacking out on him in a high risk location, or in the process of taking him to a low risk one, was no good to him at all. Neither was a victim who made a song and dance over going with him somewhere less risky.
Love,
Caz
X
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Caz, you know that I've been out of touch for over ten years, and only came back into the fray a couple of years ago, so yes, I have missed a lot, and this was one of 'em.
Nina
I'm not sure myself exactly what was used, but I'll go back and read some more to see if I can find anything. I would imagine that the use of such 'delirious drugs' has a long history.
It is an interesting concept though.
Robert
I think I used the hip flask in one of the stories, didn't I? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
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You may have done, AP.
Nina says that such a preparation could knock someone out for hours.
Someone who suffered chronic headaches and insomnia might even have taken a slug of it himself.
Never say I don't try to be helpful, AP.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:08 pm: |
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See Robert! You've done it again.
There it is right in front of me and I walk the other way.
You are absolutely right. Of course uncle Charles would have been on such medication, it was all that was available.
He couldn't reach for the valium and diazepam, it was more like chloral hydrate and diapers.
Thanks, Robert, you are a gem. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
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Nina
I've been back to the 1840's and had a real good read through the available material.
There was a real epidemic of such narcotic poisoning of women at that time, young girls being spiked by respectable chemists, raped and then thrown in the river to drown, but somehow surviving, hapless coppers finding what they thought were drunken old whores asleep on steps, throwing them in workhouses only to find that the drunken old whores were respectable young ladies who had made the mistake of taking a drink off a stranger... there are over a 1000 such cases I have been able to find, and in every single case the verdict has been that the victims have been somehow given laudanum or a 'paragoric' substance.
Many cases I saw had the police constable explaining that he had found the young lady completely insensible - drunk he thought - and was forced to call assistance to get her to the station or workhouse, where it later transpired that the young lady had only drunk one glass of wine or similar, and then it appears that the courts naturally assumed that the girl had been spiked with laudanum.
It's use was widespread at that time.
Here I'm put in mind of Eddowes' performance outside 29 Aldgate High Street where she had to be supported by her arresting officer until he had summoned assistance... when we already know that she was so broke on that day that she couldn't have afforded a single drink let alone a binge of the nature that would have her impersonating a fire engine.
I think we might have to rethink about this whole subject.
Robert is probably right. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 8:48 am: |
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Yep, AP, I think that's been said before too - that Kate's fire engine may have been drug rather than drink-induced.
And that Jack may have used his own 'experience' with toxic substances to good effect on his victims.
Lots of drug-users in 1888 London, AP. Lots of them suffering from severe headaches and insomnia during the autumn of that year, I shouldn't wonder. Now which of them, if any, was Jack?
Love,
Caz
X |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 576
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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Just jumping in with my standard line of skepticism.
Of course the problem here is that many if not most stories of druggings like this are urban legends that turn out to not really have happened. Just because something is reported in the press doesn't mean it is true.
This seems all too similar to the reports of modern day AIDS-needles in theater sicks and payphones panic, as well as the mysterious "Gown Men" and "Needle Men" of New Orleans between 1890-1930 or so. I believe there were other cases reported much earlier that were shown to be false, but I don't have examples off the top of my head.
That'd be yet another massive list (like the list of serial killers and their actual methods, compared to the conventional wisdom) that I should put together sometime.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 475
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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I am probably just lacking in imagination, but I've never understood why it is necessary to find contrived reasons for Jack's success, from winning pick-up lines to familiarity with the victims and now drugs.
From all we do know, Jack's victims were desperate for a little cash and unless he approached them waving a knife and foaming at the mouth he likely would have been accommodated. Nichols and Chapman were both out late and hoping for one last client to give them doss money. Eddowes had just been been released from jail, was broke and quite late so the chance for a quickie that would assure her entrance to her regular lodging house must have seemed heaven sent. And we know Kelly was deeply in arrears. The only exception might be Stride, but then there is debate about her canonicity anyway.
Moreover, being rather cynical, I would think that once the story about being drugged and abandoned gained currency every pretty young thing that found herself drunk and embarrassed would be quick to say "Oooo, 'e drugged me, 'e did!"
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 280
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 12:55 am: |
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Dan and Don are probably right in that no special "tricks" would have been required to get at least 3 of the first 4 Canonical victims rarin' to go...Stride being the exception as she herself stated, "not tonight".
Personally,I think the Ripper such little regard for his victims,to "waste" any chloral hydrate or any other "knockout" drug would have been a stretch. Just a thought,but I think he really "objectified" them to that level...
How Brown
JTRForums
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1872
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
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Yes, why should we look for method in madness?
I suppose because it helps us to understand it.
And it is compulsive.
There certainly was an element of mystery and magic attached to the conception of narcotics being used to subdue those difficult female creatures of the LVP. Much like I suppose the similar scare in the 1960’s concerning the use of ‘Spanish Fly’.
I know Spanish Brandy exists but has anyone ever genuinely found Spanish Fly?
There is a solid bank of evidence though that does show there were genuine cases of narcotics being used to subdue women in the manner that Jack may well have used… I don’t think he did but I like to explore.
In 1844 in Paris there was a sensational case involving the drugging and sexual abuse of dozens of young ladies. I’m not sure whether murder was involved, I must go back and have a look.
The tale was highlighted in The Times on March 22nd 1844 under the headline ‘Depravity in Paris’.
‘The Poison Shop’ by Charles Dickens - I think it was him? - also offers a useful insight into the use of narcotics in the LVP. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1697
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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One of our most famous serial killers "drugged" his victims with Gas.And he certainly objectified them.
This was Ex-policeman[hear that AP-as if you didnt already know it!]Christie.
In the 1950"s he lured pregnant young women to his house by posing as a back street abortionist.
Once he had given them gas he murdered them.
Christie though seems to have been a necrophiliac
not a mutilator. |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 476
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
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AP,
Yes, why should we look for method in madness?
I suppose because it helps us to understand it. And it is compulsive
Well, we all have our own paths that we think lead to the truth -- or the abyss. Personally, I prefer to patronize Mr. Occam's tonsorial parlor.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1873
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
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Thanks Natalie
Christie was a vastly complicated killer.
Frightened of sex so he killed sex.
Killed the consequence of sex also, hence posing as an abortionist, while masturbating near the corpses.
Magical thinking again I reckon.
Such a timid little man but he was God in his bedroom with his gas.
Took life and gave life, all dead meat on the bed.
Sometimes I really think that he thought he could bring them back to life by a magical process of masturbation.
I think he was only a ‘special’ policeman.
These guys are often alarmingly suspect.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1874
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Don
my sentiments exactly, but just don't get too close to that razor or you might be walking around with a Singapore runway on your scalp!
Most times I always think Jack killed them just because they were there. No reason, no artifice, no props, no motive and no regard for human interest or history. |
rosemaryo'ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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Hi All,
The practise of inducing a state of stupor/unconsciousness/semi- or otherwise on the owner/proprietor of 'value' is a common form of criminal subduction in all historical cultures... according to my notes!
JTR's powers of subduction lay in his hand...not his eyes, or magical potions, and anyway, he was invisible in the sight of the goyiim.
As Ever, Rosey :-)) |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 477
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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AP,
a Singapore runway on your scalp!
I hadn't heard that description before and it's quite good. Anyway, since my hair is my best (only) feature these days I look upon demented barbers with "shears terror".
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Restless Spirit
Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 8:59 am: |
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AP
I have thought about the drugging issue as well, but something that I question with regard to these drugs is affordability. I would think the average Joe(so to speak) would not be able to afford drugs. And I would also think that they would not be readily available to everyone, unless you have the influence and or money. Of course I am probably being naive. If anyone wanted drugs bad enough they would beg,borrow or steal to obtain same. I lean toward Jack being quick, quiet, charming and possibly presentable enough to lure his victims with ease into a vunerable situation, where he would strangle them and multilate to his heart's content.
With respect
Restless Spirit
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1892
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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Quite right, I suppose, RS.
However I think that our general conception of the East End as a warren of poverty stricken working class living on the starvation belt now has to change.
We are finding that what we thought were quite 'common' families of the East End with very little financial wealth and power, such as plumbers and painters, were in fact immensely wealthy and well-connected people who rubbed shoulders with royalty at mayorial banquets and the like.
Many of these imagined impoverished families actually owned great tracts of land and property throughout the Home Counties and figured Justices of the Peace amongst their ranks.
I do believe the time has come to acknowledge that our conceptions about the common riff-raff of the East End of London during the Late Victorian Period do need to be revised somewhat.
It is an important issue that clouds our judgement of this case a great deal.
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