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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 5:52 am: | 
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Maybe I have missed a thread, but in my explorations of his excellent site, I have so far found no discussion of whom posters believe were the victims of JtR.
I am surprised that this has not been discussed at length before - but maybe some years ago. If this has already got a thread, would some kind person please direct me.
Over the years I have given quite a bit of thought to trying to establish (in my own mind at least) a list of probably/likely victims of JtR. So here goes. I would welcome comments and/or the similar lists of fellow posters.
EARLY
"Fairy Fay" - or other early victim (NOT Fay, of course, but I am open minded if candiates emerge)
Ada Wilson (maybe, certainly similarities to Tabram in stabbing mode)
Annie Milwood (stabs, but I think a strong candidate as an early victim, and again links to Tabram)
Martha Tabram (KEY - either there were two killers around, one "Jack the Stabber", the other JtR, or one IMHO. If one - as I think likely - then Tabram and thus Wilson and Milwood are likely JtR victims)
Emma Smith - no, almost certainly killed by "youths" or a gang.
"Polly" Nichols (yes - certain, but JtR entered mature phase with her)
Annie Chapman (yes - certain)
Liz Stride (no, I suspect Kidney)
Catherine Eddowes (yes - certain)
MJK (highly probable, but could be opportunistic/copy-cat. I think victim WAS MJK but murderer NOT Barnett.)
Alice McKenzie - no.
Francis Cole - no, Sadler a possibility.
So what do you think. Again, sincere apologies if I am stirring an old pot.
Phil |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 371
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 6:08 pm: |
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Hi Phil
I usually tend to stick to:
Tabram
Nichols
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly
A couple of possible early attempts could be Ada Wilson and Emma Smith. A thought, flowing in the deep recesses of my brain makes me wonder if Jack was a member of the gang which attacked Emma. I have been looking, without much success so far, of a list of east end gangs and there members.
All the best
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 6:50 pm: |
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Hi Robert,I tend to think the same as you on this-and have similar suspicions regarding membership of the gang that attacked Emma.
Phil,I dont think anyone is sure that Fairy Fay existed -I may be wrong though.
Natalie |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 681
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 7:41 pm: |
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Fairy Fay did not exist, there are no records of anyone being murdered in the manner described at the correct time.
I agree with you in some respects. I put Polly, Annie and Kate as certainties, Liz and Mary as probables, Annie Millwood and Martha Tabram as possibles.
Emma Smith I doubt very much, and Ada Wilson told so many lies to the police I don't think its possible to make a judgement in her case. Rose Mylett, difficult to say if she was murdered or not, but if she was then it almost certainly wasn't the Ripper.
Alice McKenzie I think was killed by a client who tried to make it look like a Ripper murder afterwards to cover up, but didn't have the stomach to do a proper job.
Frances Coles was probably killed by a client. I would say she almost certainly was not killed by Thomas Sadler who, putting together his account with that of the witnesses, was almost too drunk to find his own ass with a flashlight and a map, let alone to murder someone.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 587
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 7:56 pm: |
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Hi all,
In Chapter 1 of Ultimate, Evans & Skinner reckon that Fairy Fay was Margaret Hames, another lodger at 18 George Street. They write that she sustained a similar attack to Smith's on 8 Dec 1887, suffering injuries to her face and chest. According to them, she was admitted to Whitechapel infirmary and wasn't released until two days after Boxing Day. So press reports referring to a Christmas murder probably were thinking of the Hames attack and apparently just forgot that she had survived.
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:55 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Actually, these matters have been widely debated on the Boards, although mostly in threads devoted to the individual victims (this is a pot I've stirred on several occasions during the last year and a half), not that much "collected" in an over-all view.
Here is my standing point for the time being:
Fairy Fay -- probably never existed; a pure journalist creation, born from confusion and false facts.
Annie Millwood -- probably not, but possibly the same killer that murdered Tabram.
Martha Tabram -- probably not a JtR victim, in my view.
Emma Smith -- certainly not; probably attacked by a gang of hooligans, as she herself claimed.
Polly Nichols -- absolutely. Possibly a "practice victim" for JtR and his method. Or simply he was interrupted -- or both. But a Ripper victim -- yes.
Annie Chapman -- oh yes.
Elisabeth Stride -- probably not; possibly murdered by Kidney or a customer
Kate Eddowes -- oh yes again; certainly the Ripper.
Mary Jane Kelly -- highly unlikely, and in my personal view, not a JtR victim. If this was a copy-cat murder, I'd give Barnett first priority as a suspect, after him possibly Hutchinson or the elusive Joe Flemming.
Alice McKenzie -- no.
Frances coles -- no. Possibly Sadler.
So in my view we can only truly depend on three canonical victims:
Nichols
Chapman
Eddowes
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 372
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 3:46 am: |
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Hi Natalie
East End gang members, worth trying to find out more about them.
All the best
Rob |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 416
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 4:42 am: |
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Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly are the most closely linked. Those three were killed quite similarly, opened up and disemboweled, and had organs removed and placed around the body in specific ways. The same cannot be said for the others.
Stride could be an interrupted case, though we can't know for sure. The timing is right, but Schwartz's witness statement seems problematic and a jealous boyfriend is a reasonable alternative explanation for a throat cutting minus mutilations.
Nichols is I think a highly likely one too, but the difference with her is that the abdominal mutilations appear to be someone playing around and not someone who actually intended to rip his victim open, unless the killer was unskilled in that department. She's a logical person to add to the list if the killer was learning as he went.
Following that logic, Tabram is another good add. If we can believe the killer learned how to (or decided to) disembowel someone properly, we can certainly believe he learned to or decided to cut throats properly. Wilson and/or Milwood could also be picked up on that end. I don't rule Smith out either.
Going the other direction, it's possible the Ripper decided to lay low and be less ambitious (or kept getting interrupted), in which case he could have picked up McKenzie and/or Coles. I don't rule out the possibility that Carrie Brown was a late addition either. I think it's also conceivable that there is a connection with the torso killings, if the killer were quite organized.
If we toss in known victims of suspects that could possibly be the Ripper, either Kelly or Bury's wife would obviously be added if one of them were the Ripper. I also don't rule out the idea that the Ripper also poisoned people, though I consider it fairly unlikely.
Of course that goes through a whole range of possibilities there. I don't think he did all of them, but I don't think we can rule most of them out based upon the scant information we have if we are being honest with ourselves. I personally wouldn't be surprised if an actual list of victims turned out to contain names we have never even heard of or ones highly scoffed at when they have been brought up.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:53 am: |
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I think we can safely say that Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were kiled by the same person.
Stride--maybe,unprovable
Kelly-- I think yes.I see the whole series as both an escalation of rage and a learning curve.Given the Ripper's luck in finding a woman who could bring him indoors and the frustration that must have built up in the time since the Double Event I see no reason to discount Kelly.
As for the non-canonical:
Tabram--again I don't rule her out as an early go,experiment.
Millwood-- same as Tabram.
Nothing after Kelly with the possible exception of Carrie Brown but of course that opens an additional can of worms!
Mags
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Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:55 am: |
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well here we go again. In my opinion:
Annie Millwood: possible
Tabram: probably
Nichols: yes
Chapman: yes
Stride: yes
Eddowes: yes
Kelly: yes
McKenzie, Coles: probably not
Ada Wilson: undetermined
Emma Smith: possible, but not likely
I know I disagree with others on these boards who tend to focus on the differences in MO & signature. This is because I tend to think that there was an evolution in the procedure which probably involved a few early somewhat bungled attacks, in which the Ripper was trying to figure out an expedient method for killing.
The Tabram murder in this context is key, especially as there is some evidence that she was possibly throttled, and the wounds were committed after she was either dead or unconscious. Thus the following murders, would include the same basic MO, with the addition of the throat slitting and the mutilations. The stabs on Tabrams stomach, groin, neck etc would thus be seen as an early example of the Ripper's desire to visciously attack and mutilate the bodies. Just my opinion.
On a side note, I have just returned from London and I have some things to contribute:
1. I have some photos from whitechapel that I will be posting on my website.
2. I discovered a few tidbits... mostly not too important, but somewhat interesting nevertheless, when I did some research at the London Metropolitan archives. For example, in the Admission and Discharge books for the workhouses I found entries for Emma Smith and Michael Kidney. Also, I discovered an interesting "lunatic" named Thomas Murray, who claimed that his neighbors taunted him by calling him Jack the Ripper. His wife stated that he was dangerous, etc. I will post these details in full.... where should I post these? (ie. on what thread?)
Rob H |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2373
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 9:03 am: |
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Rob H,
That new suspect Thomas Murray sounds interesting indeed; I look forward reading about him.
If it's not possible to list a new suspect thread on the "Suspect" page, I suggest you either post a thread called something like "New suspect: Thomas Murray" in the "General" area on the "Suspects" page, or on the "General Discussions" head page.
Unless you mail some info to Stephen and convinces him to open up anew Suspect thread.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 658
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
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Hi Phil,
I think many of us have expressed our opinions on this, but these opinions have been largely embedded in other threads rather than having a thread of their own.
Here is my take:
Potential Pre-Tabram victims: So unlikely as to be safely dismissed. However one should not consider it impossible for any of them to be early victims.
Tabram: 30-40% likelihood of being a Ripper victim.
Nicholls: 100% likelihood
Chapman: 100% likelihood
Stride: 90% likelihood.
Eddowes: 100% likelihood
Kelly: 85-90% likelihood
McKenzie, Coles: nope
Whitehall torso: near 0%
Pinchin Street Torso: 10-20% likelihood, mainly due to the similarity of abdominal gash.
Andy S.
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Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 455
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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My list follows:
Tabram
Nichols
Chapman
Stride (maybe)
Eddowes
Kelly
Mikey
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:57 pm: |
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The publicity following Martha Tabram's murder (was that when Emma Smith began to enter the public consciousness, because they now had two 'orrible murders?) gave Jack his cue.
Nichols (made it a hat trick in the eyes of the press, so Jack could have told his boyish self "Well it wasn't me who started it")
Chapman
Stride (too close in timing to Eddowes not to be an unsatisfactory job requiring a second victim that night)
Eddowes
Kelly (I haven't yet seen one good reason for wanting to exclude her, or one good suspect for killing only her)
Mylett (no alcohol in stomach despite witness seeing her appear drunk; final meal of meat and potatoes corresponds too well with Kelly's fish and potatoes; mark of cord round neck very hard to detect, would have been even harder, if not impossible, had her throat been cut like the others)
McKenzie possible copycat to make it look like the ripper was still active.
All IMHO of course.
Love,
Caz
X |
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 2:11 pm: |
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Glenn,
I posted that under General Discussion » London Met Research ... sorry to intrude on this thread again. I also have some photos at: http://www.roberthouse.com/other/france/jtr.html
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:16 pm: |
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Thanks, Rob.
I'll check it out immediately.
All the best
G, sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:20 pm: |
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For what it's worth
Tabram
Nichols
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly
This has a chance of becoming 'I'm a Ripper Victim,Get Me Out of Here!'
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:51 pm: |
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Thanks Rob,great pictures.Thomas Murray seems worthy of further research.
Natalie
Martha Tabram 99% certain
Polly Nicholls 99% certain
Annie Chapman 99% certain
Elizabeth Stride uncertain
Kate Eddowes 99% certain
Mary Jane Kelly 99% certain
and then he died was put away or committed suicide
Natalie |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 267
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:56 pm: |
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Hi All,
Here are mine:
Tabram: 80% Ripper
Nichols: 100%
Chapman: 100%
Stride: 90%
Eddowes: 100%
Kelly: 100%
Paul
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Nina Thomas
Detective Sergeant
Username: Nina
Post Number: 149
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 7:14 pm: |
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My Current List
Tabram: Yes
Nichols: Yes
Chapman: Yes
Stride: Undecided
Eddowes: Yes
kelly: Yes
Nina |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 160
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 9:40 pm: |
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Dear Caz...You said: "McKenzie possible copycat to make it look like the ripper was still active."
Maybe I am not reading this right and I'm not being critical...but are you positing that another killer murdered Alice Mac to re-inaugarate the Ripper Terror for this erzatz Ripper's intrinsic needs? In other words,another sicko who wanted to emulate the original Ripper ?
I wish I could attend the Smoke and Staggers meetings to ask you in person...umm...because its not a bad proposition...
Hope all is going well for you...
How
My list would include the C5...I'm so whitebread.
(Message edited by howard on December 08, 2004) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:27 am: |
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for Robert Clack:Hi Rob,yes I often have pondered on this East End Ripper gang and their reputation for mutilation when their targets[mostly apparently Whitechapel prostitutes they pimped for] didnt pay up on time.The thing is would one of these ruffians have been smart enough to avoid detection in the way the ripper himself did?
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 373
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 8:47 am: |
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Hi Natalie
Good question, what's the answer?
Going over Emma Smiths case, she was attacked by three men, the youngest being nineteen. Three seems a bit small for a gang to me. Also her assault was very violent and a bit to extreme for someone who hasn't paid up on time. Of course she could also have been made an example of.
Hi Howard
If Caz hasn't seen your post, I'll draw her attention to it next time I take her out to lunch  which might be a while as it is my turn to pay.
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1275
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 9:36 am: |
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Sometimes Robert,I think we forget that poor Emma too was murdered.Whether it was by a gang or the murderer was one of its members who decided to sadistically kill her which certainly puts one in mind of various sadistic woman killers one cant tell from this time distance.It has some strange similarities with the murder of Martha Tabram for me.A sort of botched frenzied attack with the
reproductive organs attacked destructively-although in the case of Martha Tabram it was confined to lower abdomen injuries as well as random stabbing elsewhere.
Just one other curious matter.Emma didnt seem to want to be too clear about who had attacked her
and didnt want to inform the police which has led some to wonder whether it was a "gang" who attacked her or whether she preferred not to tell people what had really happened.In my view her particular injuries were the work of a sexual sadist.Martha"s too.But the next victim to be killed in the area was Polly Nichols and she seems to have died too quickly for us to say her injuries were those of a sexual sadist.The ripper seemed to want his victims dead or anaethesised[a bit like Christie] before setting about his real ghastly business.Maybe though it was all part of a "developing" M.O.
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 374
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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Hi Natalie
I agree entirely. I think Emma's reluctance to talk about her attack, was that she was to terrified to say anything for fear of reprisals, she didn't even go straight to the hospital and none of the people who accompanied her to London Hospital bothered to stop and tell a policeman what had happened.
It's possible I suppose that one of the gang went a bit over the top, and that triggered something inside him.
Rob
P.S I hope I didn't come across as uncaring, in my previous post about Emma, as that was not my intention. |
Liam Colligan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:53 pm: |
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Hi Glenn,
I have to agree with you when you say that there can only be three canonical victims: Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes.
The three were (almost) certainly killed by the same hand.
I don't agree though with the idea that Nichols was a "practice victim" because I don't think Jack needed any practice! Jack was there for a purpose and he was cool and calculated. I certainly believe that he was interupted with Nichols, possibly when Charles Cross stepped into the street. The position in Bucks Row where the attack happened is an ideal 'look-out' vantage point. Crouching down low in the dark west-side of the street, one can easily spot someone stepping out from a house in the row or entering from Brady Street. Also, if someone was approaching from the opposite direction - the broader part of Bucks Row, footsteps would have likely echoed around the almost courtyard-shaped enclosure giving ample time for Jack to escape up into Brady Street.
The Chapman and Eddowes cases speak for themselves. They're almost exact replicas of each other.
All three murders were committed by the same silent, faceless professional. All three were probably (routinely) strangled first, placed on the ground and then had their throats cut twice.
The Stride incident doesn't seem to fit the pattern of the other three. Israel Schwartz (who seems like a reliable witness) stated that 'a man tried to pull Stride from the club's gateway into the street' and how 'she(Stride) screamed three times'. It just doesn't sound like the same 'stealthy' killer.
Martha Tabran was stabbed 39 times and by this fact alone she has to be ruled out as a JTR victim. She was clearly a victim of overkill which immediately suggests that she knew her killer. The MO is so different than the rest there can't be a connection.
I'm not sure what to make of the Mary Kelly murder! She doesn't seem to be connected to the rest but if it was a copy-cat murder, they went to a whole lot of trouble getting messy!
Anyway I agree with you Glenn, there are truly only THREE canonical victims.
Liam. |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:30 am: |
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Thanks for so many illuminating responses so quickly. It's useful to know where people stand on a new Board.
JUst to clarify - if you re-read my original post, I did NOT say that "Fairy Fay" existed. [My words were: "(NOT Fay, of course...)
I used her as a catch-all for currently unknown early victims - hence my reference to "other candidates". Perhaps I should have been clearer.
My apologies for any confusion.
Phil |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 6:35 am: |
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Dan
Interesting post.
For myself, I am dubious about the connection to the "torso" killings.
It seems to me that one has to assume a murderer with two VERY distinct modus operandi (one ripping, the other disarticulating) and working in two very clearly delineated areas. Mind you, if there were two murderers working in parallel - but separately - that is also surprising.
I have always wondered why the "torso" killings did not attract more attention at the time. I see no linkages being made either by police or press. I have never done any research, or any but the most cursorary reading on the torso case - is there an explanation for the lack of interest?
Phil |
NC
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 8:50 pm: |
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Phil,
How about Rose Mylett. Similarities would be:
- prostitute (at least part-time)
- death probably by strangulation as possible precursor to throat cutting (choking on collar seems farcical)
- found in dimly lit yard
- reasonable proximity to other murders, both time and place
She at least deserves consideration as a JtR victim.
Regards
Neale
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 385
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 2:54 pm: |
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Hi Phil & all,
Here are my two cents (for now anyway):
Fairy Fay: 0% likely - she was most probably the result of a sloppy journalist who vaguely remembered Emma Smith.
Millwood: 50% likely – it’s quite possible that she was one of the first Ripper victims. She was attacked out of the blue by a complete stranger. I’m quite certain Jack began his career with minor offences like attacks such as the one on Millwood.
Wilson: 10% - because of the location I think Wilson is a less likely Ripper victim, but not at all unthinkable.
Smith: 0% - she fell victim to a gang of three youths and I don’t think the Ripper was the type to have many friends, if he had them at all.
Tabram: 55% - for the reason I mentioned with Millwood, I think there’s a 50-50 chance at least she did fall victim to the Ripper.
Nichols: 100%
Chapman: 100%
Stride: 30% - reading Stride’s whole story, to me Kidney seems the most likely suspect for her murder.
Eddowes: 100%
Kelly: 80% - the different approach and the fact that she was killed indoors restrain me from saying 100%.
McKenzie: 10% - the wounds inflicted on her body were inconsistent with those on the certain Ripper victims.
Coles: 0% - the ‘cooling off period’ was far too long, and there were a different approach and attack. She was probably thrown onto the ground and her throat was cut in a sawing motion, which is inconsistent with how the throats of the certain Ripper victims were cut.
I don't think any of the torsos were the work of the Ripper. They seem to point to someone who had a place of his own at his disposal, where he could cut his victims into pieces without being disturbed, someone who probably had a cart of some sort at hand to transport the body parts over longer distances without attracting attention or arousing suspicions. There's a good chance this killer dumped the torso in Pinchin Street to make the police think it was Ripper related.
By the way Phil, if you’re still interested, here’s the thread you were looking for before you started this one: ../4920/5828.html"#DEDDCE"> |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 418
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 6:47 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
I'm rather dubious on the torso murders myself, for reasons you name, but then they are pretty spectacular killings with some similarities in the same rough general area at the same time. There could be some sort of link. Might be related to a criminal gang theory, or some sort of body part thing, and I'm not sure why the black magic theorists don't jump all over the torsos since you'd think the recent Thames torso, widely believed by police to be related to magic rituals, would have put the idea back in the spotlight.
I basically try not to rule most things out without very solid reasoning, and even then I brace myself for some new fact that might turn the whole field around. Of course one of the things I almost completely rule out is an idea that's popular in this thread, so who knows.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 7:05 pm: |
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Liam,
Thanks for the input. I can buy most of your reasoning as well.
Now, regarding Nichols as a "practice run...", note that I only out forward this as an alternative point.
I myself find it more likely though, that the killer, as you yourself also state, was interrupted.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2378
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 8:38 pm: |
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Well, I see that people are using percentage here, so I just thought I'd do the same. In any case, it puts ones opinions regarding the chances of the following women to be noted as Ripper victims a bit clearer from a statistical point of view.
Emma Smith: 0%
Annie Millwood: 20%
Martha Tabram: 20%
Polly Nichols: 100%
Annie Chapman: 100%
Elizabeth Stride: 35%
Catharine Eddowes: 100%
Mary Jane Kelly: 40-50%
McKenzie: 0-5%
Frances Coles: 0-10%
Whitehall torso: 0%
Pinchin Street Torso: 0-10%
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on December 09, 2004)
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 129
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 4:54 am: |
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Liam,
With all due respect, it sounds like you are describing your fantasy image of a serial killer... "cool and calculated" "a silent, faceless professional".? First of all, there is no such thing as a "professional" serial killer, unless we are talking about assasins. It sounds like you are describing ninjas, or a green beret, or James Bond or something.
I am not saying thus just because I disagree with Glenn's "3 canonical victims" argument, but it sounds like you do not have a very realistic understanding of serial murderers. They are human, prone to make mistakes, and not as consistent as some people think.
I am currently reading about Peter Sutcliffe, the "Yorkshire Ripper". He killed 12 women in 5 years, one of which was not acknowledged as part of the series. In addition there were 8 "attacks" on women which were not fatal. Most were attempts to murder that were interrupted or that Sutcliffe himself bungled, or even changed his mind about (feelings of guilt, remorse, etc).
Of these 8 attacks only 4 were acknowledged as part of the series by police, and this led to huge problems in the investigation. To quote from Wicked Beyond Belief: "The criteria for including or excluding women in the series had been drawn too tightly, and in doing so some of the most crucial clues were missed which could have led to the killer's arrest". In summary, out of a total of 20 murders and attacks by Sutcliffe, a quarter (i.e. 5) were not acknowledged as part of the series by police. The reason: differences in the forensic analysis of the crime scene, difference in the killer's approach, differences in the types of wounds, etc.
It is for these same reasons that some people (such as Glenn) are arguing to exclude Kelley, Stride, Tabram, etc. I tend to think he attacked more, not fewer victims. And also, I believe there was an evolution in the technique of JTR. This also is common among serial killers. They often make several mistakes before discovering an MO that is more efficient.
RH |
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 130
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 5:32 am: |
|
Also, a quick question: Tabram is said to have been stabbed with an "ordinary pen-knife". Annie Milwood was stabbed with a "clasp knife". Are these similar? I am picturing small pocket knives, like a fold away knife with a rather short (maybe 3 inches), single-edged blade.
RH |
Lindsey Millar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 12:21 pm: |
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Hi all,
A little late on the uptake here, but here's my list:
Emma Smith: 0%
Annie Millwood: 0%
Martha Tabram: 10%
Polly Nichols: 100%
Annie Chapman: 100%
Elizabeth Stride: grey area for me, but maybe 50%
Catharine Eddowes: 100%
Mary Jane Kelly: another grey area.. 50%
McKenzie: 0%
Frances Coles: 0%
Whitehall torso: 0%
Pinchin Street Torso: 0%
For what it's worth...
Lyn |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 9:16 am: |
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It is an interesting point, but I assume that all murders in Whitchapel and its environs in 1888 have been accounted for (ie beyond those on the JtR files)?
But would woundings even serious ones always have been reported? I assume so, because given the "panic" that reigned in the East End in 1888, I can only suppose that the subject of every attack was popularly thought of as a "Ripper" victim. But that is only an assumption.
Does anyone know, did violent crime fall in the East End in 1888/89 (reaction?) or increase (copy cat?)
Phil |
Catherine Ann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:07 am: |
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Emma Smith - yes - I actually find the idea of the Ripper being a part of a gang member plausible. Why shouldn't it be? Perhaps he didn't actually do the killing but observed and then decided he wanted to branch out "solo" in much the same way as singers from bands go solo and become more established.
Martha Tabram - yes. It was a frenzied attack but I believe it possibly him.
Polly Nicholls - yes.
Chapman - yes.
Stride - yes.
Eddowes - yes.
Kelly - yes. By this time he was a master of butchery, had nerves of steel and enjoyed his work. He went to town on her. I don't believe that a one-off killer would resort to such extremes. He seems to know what he was doing and worked slowly and deliberately, possibly because he was indoors and felt secure.
I also believe the torso murders might have been attributed to him. Perhaps he liked to mutilate the bodies differently, liked to experiment.
I find it rather hard to believe that there were so many depraved killers roaming London at this time who all had the stomach for gore. Sounds even more far fetched than just one fiend on the loose. |
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