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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 741
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 7:40 am: |       |
I'm sorry if there is another thread about this but I'm sure this will be moved if it belongs elsewhere.
I wanted to make some comments about this alleged cry of "Oh Murder" as I have noticed some odd things whilst re-reading Mary Kelly's inquest.
Mary Ann Cox of 5 Millers Court stated that I feel certain if there had been the cry of "Murder" in the place I should have heard it; there was not the least noise.
Elizabeth Prater of 20 Millers Court stated that I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice.
Sarah Lewis who was staying at 2 Millers Court stated that I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly.
Julia Van Turney of 1 Millers Court stated that I heard no screams of "Murder.
Now, two people residing within the court that night claim there was no such cry and Mary Ann Cox claims that she would have heard it as she did not sleep at all.
With regards to the two people who claim they heard it, well they have very different views. Elizabeth Prater claims that the cry of "Oh Murder" was very faint and she also says that her room is above Mary's so surely for this to have been Mary she would have to have been smothered or strangled to make it faint which is perfectly acceptable as most believe she was strangled first. Then there is Sarah Lewis, who is even further away from Mary's room though obviously not by much as the court wasn't that big, now she claims that the cry she heard was in a loud voice. If this was true than why would Elizabeth Prater have made a point about the cry she heard being in a faint voice.
None of this makes sense to me. Surely not all these women are saying the absolute truth, but I don't mean in a deliberate way, just that their versions can't all be the correct one.
Ok, that's all I have to say for now but I just wanted to point out the inconsistancies of this alleged cry as so many people seem to be taking it for granted that Mary cried out "Oh Murder!!" that night she died.
Sarah |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 158
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 9:55 am: | |
Sarah,
Perhaps it is because I am older, perhaps I am just naturally jaded, but there are some statements you are forever hearing and which over time you simply accept with a benign smile (and to which you pay no attention). Things like "We're just friends" or "I'm only a social drinker."
Another of those is "I didn't sleep a wink last night." As it is, of the two who claimed they heard no cries in the night, Venturney did admit to having dozed. As far as whether the cries were loud or not, that is one of the problems with eyewitnesses or earwitnesses -- there are no measurable standards and one person's heavy moustache is another's light and the same with cries being loud or soft.
Finally, what must always be borne in mind when analyzing any of the testimony is that we know something was going to happen on the morning of November 9, but with the possible exception of the murderer no one else in or around Miller's Court did. They had no reason to be particularly alert or careful to note every sound and sighting. They were all sleeping or trying to sleep, consumed with their own lives and otherwise not particularly interested in number 13.
That is unfortunate for our purposes, but something that we must accept when parsing their statements.
Don. |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 420
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
Yes, I agree with Don. "Loud" and "soft" are relative terms, as are words like "cry," "shout," and "scream." There is also the variable of hearing ability. Some people are hard of hearing, while others have a sharp ear.
As to being wide awake all night. After a recent overnight flight I made the comment that I hadn't slept during the flight. Someone in the group I was traveling with rather incredulously told me that I was sound asleep as she got up to use the lav during that flight.
Andy S. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 742
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:06 pm: | |
Andy, Don,
There is a huge difference between a faint sound and a loud sound one.
This was also an inquest so people had to be very specific. When Mary Ann Cox said she didn't sleep that night I believe she meant it. I've had nights where I've slept for about 10 - 30 mins before but you still say "I didn't sleep at all", as it's in a casual way, but in an inquest she would have to have been very specific.
Where does it say that Julia Van Turney admitted to dozing around the time of the alleged cry as she didn't mention it at the inquest.
Sarah |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 421
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough. Sometimes people fall asleep without ever realizing it. That's what obviously happened to me on my last flight to London. I thought I hadn't slept at all, but my friend saw me sound asleep when she got up to go to the lav. Maybe that's what happened to Cox.
Also, do consider that many people must have been hard of hearing in those days. Anyone who ever worked in a factory then, and that would include many women, or anywhere around machinery would have been routinely subjected to damaging levels of noise, resulting in partial hearing loss.
Andy S. |
Chris Michetti
Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:22 pm: | |
If she was above #13 and said it was faint, maybe she had her windows closed and heard the sound coming through the floor; whereas maybe the other woman had her windows open and heard it much louder. Who knows?
Chris 
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 159
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:35 pm: | |
Sarah,
Page 375 of my copy of The Ultimate JtR Companion Julie Venturney tells the inquest "I went to bed Thursday night about 8 o'clock I could not sleep all night I only dozed. . ." [emphasis added] I never said she was dozing when others heard a cry, but it is a reasonable inference.
I think your comments about sleeping when you say you haven't only confirm Andy's and my comments. Venturney was honest enough to admit she did sleep some. Make what you wish of Cox's statement, though she does say it was "raining hard," something that might have drowned out a cry and which also, her protestations of sleeplessness to the contrary, can have a soporific effect.
Finally, I urge you to reread the third paragraph of my previous post -- putting too much credence in every word and nuance of these statements can often be a snare and delusion.
Don.
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 188
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 6:31 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
What might explain the fact that Elizabeth Prater perceived the cry as faint is that it only barely woke her up, that she hadn’t completely woken up when she heard it. I have a radio alarm, so I’m woken by the radio every weekday morning and sometimes I’m still so sound asleep that I don’t immediately wake up. When I’m in the process of waking up, if you will, the sound of my alarm at first seems softer than when I’m wide awake. This might explain the faintness of the cry heard by Elizabeth Prater.
All the best,
Frank
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Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 8:06 pm: | |
Evening All
Just to confuse the issue further, it’s worth remembering that in her statement to police on 9 Nov., Elizabeth Prater claimed: “I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice.” But, when asked at the inquest, “Did you hear it a second time?” she replied. “No.”
So, perhaps the Star, 10 Nov., wasn’t far off the mark when it reported:
“The desire to be interesting has had its effect on the people who live in the Dorset-street-court and lodging-houses, and for whoever cares to listen there are
A HUNDRED HIGHLY CIRCUMSTANTIAL STORIES,
which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth. One woman (as reported below) who lives in the court stated that at about two o’clock she heard a cry of “Murder.” This story soon became popular, until at last half a dozen women were retailing it as their own personal experience. Each story contradicted the others with respect to the time at which the cry was heard. A Star reporter who inquired into the matter extracted from one of the women the confession that the story was, as far as she was concerned, a fabrication; and he came to the conclusion that it was to be disregarded.”
Having said that, of course, Sarah Lewis (Mrs. Kennedy?) seems to have remained pretty consistent in her claims.
Best Wishes
alex
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Joseph Paul Jackson
Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 8:20 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,
This might be just an american mindset, but, who cries murder when someone is attacking them? Didnt anyone simply scream "HELP", or something of that nature? It just seems that it might be a better way of alerting people that something is wrong.
Paul |
Julia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:09 pm: | |
Paul,
I've often thought the same thing...maybe it's a 20th century mindset rather than an American one, but today it seems like you would yell anything but "Murder" if you were the one being murdered! I would think crying "Murder" would be the reaction of someone discovering a murder...
Julia |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 713
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 3:05 am: | |
Hi,
I do also agree, the term 'Oh Murder'does refer more to discovering a body, rather than being the actual victim.
But I believe the words were uttered by Kelly, who was having a nightmare, and awoke suddenly.
Her friend Lottie, did state that kelly had a bad dream, in october, that she was being murdered, and I would say it was a reoccurance of that dream, that awoke her, as she was petrified of spending nights in that room alone.
Richard. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 748
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 4:57 am: | |
Paul,
I agree, that's why I disagree that Mary screamed those words at all.
Richard,
Don't you think that it would be all too conincidental for Mary to dream about being murdered, cry out in her sleep, then the following morning she just happened to actually get murderered. There is no evidence that Mary cried out those words at all. A couple of people claim they heard it at very different volumes and the closest one to Mary's room heard it very faintly.
Is there idea what Elizabeth Prater did for a living as I want to see about the theory of her being deaf in any way.
It seems funny to me that so many people try to find so many excuses for the discrepances between the witnesses saying what they heard or didn't hear and yet the simplist option to me is that it wasn't Mary at all.
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 189
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 6:17 am: | |
Hi Sarah,
You wrote: “It seems funny to me that so many people try to find so many excuses for the discrepances between the witnesses saying what they heard or didn't hear and yet the simplist option to me is that it wasn't Mary at all.”
You may well be right in saying that it wasn’t Mary at all, it might not have been her at all. Although this option wasn't mentioned by anyone on this thread, no-one here, except for maybe Richard, is saying that the voice had to be Mary’s. You seemed to be looking for explanations for the discrepancies, we offered some possible explanations (I wouldn’t call them excuses), most of which sound plausible to me. Although the cry was heard by 2 people at about the same time and at a time that might be considered critical to Mary Jane’s murder, I’m not certain that it was indeed uttered by Mary Jane, but on the other hand, I think the possibility that it was her can't be disregarded either.
All the best,
Frank
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 754
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 6:42 am: | |
Frank,
Ok, I was mistaken. It did sound to me as if people were trying their utmost to make it seem that Mary Jane was the one who cried out.
Yes, some of the explanations some possible but as I see it, not probable.
Does anyone know how far away from each other Sarah Lewis and Elizabeth Prater were?
Oh, also in response to some other explanations above.
I don't think Prater would have been just waking up as at the inquest she said it wasn't the cry that woke her, it was her kitten so she would already have been awake when she heard the alleged cry.
Now, the fact that Lewis said she heard the cry in a loud voice and Prater in a faint voice, suggests to me personally that Lewis was closer to where it was coming from and yet Prater was closer the Mary's room.
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 191
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 10:21 am: | |
Hi Sarah,
You’re most probably right about Elizabeth Prater being (wide) awake when she heard the cry.
No. 2 Miller’s Court was the first apartment on the left of the court on the first floor. As far as I know, this was right opposite the door to Mary’s room.
All the best,
Frank
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 757
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 10:26 am: | |
Frank it does sound like it. Where was 1 and 5 Millers Court where the other two were?
The court was very small though, did they not check with the other residents to get more of an idea. At the moment there are two people who heard a cry albeit at very different volumes and two that didn't hear it at all. It would have been interesting to ask other residents of the court and see what they had said.
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 193
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 6:40 am: | |
Hi Sarah,
The dissertation “The Whitechapel Dossier: Dorset Street and Miller's Court” by the late Viper says:
“In 1888, Miller's Court had four units on the left, (the last not being used as accommodation) and three on the right. Numbering started with no. 1, downstairs on the left, with no. 2 above it, running down the left side and back up on the right such that no. 12 was upstairs, nearest to Mary Jane's window.”
Hope this helps.
Frank
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 768
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 7:07 am: | |
Wouldn't it be no. 14 above no. 13 if numbering began on the ground floor?
I don't understand then because at the inquest Elizabeth Prater's address is stated as 20 Millers Court an claims she lived above Mary.
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 194
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
In her official police statement taken on 9 November, it says that she lived at ‘No 20 room 27 Dorset Street’, so maybe it was officially a ‘Dorset Street address’, hence a number that didn’t fit the rest of the numbers in Miller’s Court. I’m afraid I can’t help you any further. It’s seems to be just another one of those enigma’s about this whole case.
Frank
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 427
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
Sarah wrote:
Now, the fact that Lewis said she heard the cry in a loud voice and Prater in a faint voice, suggests to me personally that Lewis was closer to where it was coming from and yet Prater was closer the Mary's room.
Or that Prater was hard of hearing, perhaps.
Sarah also wrote:
Is there idea what Elizabeth Prater did for a living as I want to see about the theory of her being deaf in any way.
Occupational hazard is but one means of hearing loss. Many people just naturally acquire some degree of hearing loss. Maybe she had a cold and her ears were stopped up!
All I'm saying is that a person can't hinge his argument on witneses' relative assessment of the loudness of a sound.
Andy S.
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 787
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Andy,
Is there any evidence that Elizabeth Prater was hard of hearing?
Personally I think it is important to look at these minor details of the loudness of the sound. We can't just pass it off as Prater going deaf. What is Lewis and Prater's hearing were both fine and Lewis really did hear it loudly and Prater really did hear it in a faint voice? Then what? I'm sorry but I don't accept just pushing it to one side and saying, "oh well it makes no difference. Prater was probably going deaf or they were both careless or the words they used".
At an inquest they would have to have been VERY careful about how they describer things. This is why they both emphasised the loudness of the sound.
Sarah |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 429
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
Sarah,
I never said there was any evidence that Prater was hard of hearing. It's just prudent to consider other plausible explanations (and permanent or temporary hearing loss is a plausible explanation, as is a simple difference in how one defines "loud " or "soft"), especially when evaluating something as subjective as the perceived loudness of a sound.
Andy S. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 788
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 4:28 am: | |
Andy,
I never said there was any evidence that Prater was hard of hearing.
I know, that's why I asked if there was any. My point is that she may not have been hard of hearing in any way. There is a massive difference between loud and faint though and this I will maintain. As I've said before, people couldn't be too casual with their descriptions of anything including sounds at an inquest.
If two people who had nothing wrong with their hearing really did hear a sound at two very different volumes of sound then I'm trying to work out what that means. We can't just toss it aside and try and think of explanations for which we have no evidence for. We do, however, have evidence that says Prater heard the sound in a faint voice and Lewis in a loud voice.
After reading the inquest again, I saw that Lewis' statement of I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly suggests to me that she heard more than one shout. Maybe it's just how I interpret the word "shouting" but to me it sounds like more than one shout.
Of course there are the two who heard no sound at all which so many people wish to just disregard. Personally I don't think the cry, if there was one, came form Kelly at all. It just sounds more like a cry from someone upon discovering a dead body. I'm sure that even back then instinct wouldn't have told them to cry out the words "Oh, Murder!!" if they were being attacked, I'm sure they would have just screamed.
Sarah |
Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 8:23 am: | |
Hi Sarah
The official inquest papers and newspaper reports clearly record that Lewis claimed to hear only one scream/shout.
As part of official inquest papers, in her statement to police on 9th Nov., Lewis claims: “I heard a scream like that of a young woman, and seemed to be not far away, she screamed out murder, I only heard it once.”
Official notes of her inquest testimony record: “I heard a female voice shout loudly one Murder! the sound seemed to come from the direction of deceased’s room there was only one scream.”
Inquest coverage in the Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov., reported Lewis as testifying: “I heard a female’s voice shouting “Murder” loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.”
As pointed out above, it was Prater who claimed, in her statement to police on 9 Nov., to have “heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice.” The fact that official inquest notes then record her testifying: “I did not hear it a second time,” leads me to regard Prater’s claims as dubious at best. Lewis on the other hand seems to remain fairly consistent.
Best Wishes
alex
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