Author: Peter Birchwood
Thursday, 19 November 1998 - 04:04 pm |        |
"Don't necessarily accept family traditions as strictly true, but there is often a kernel of truth and the stories themselves add flesh to the bare bones of names and dates...And the golden rule-always always always double-check your information;accept nothing as certain."
"Tracing Your Family Tree," Keith Skinner and Paul Begg
Regards, Peter. |
Author: sean Miller
Monday, 23 November 1998 - 05:19 pm | |
..and they all said "OH WELL I NEVER, WAS THERE EVER, A CAT SO CLEVER...."
Shut up Sean... Peter's telling us something!
..But seriously, how many boards are we going to start up in this discussion??
Are we not likely to lose the 'plot'?? You know there's such a thing as cartesian products... when I next go to the board will I have 20,753 different lines of conversation to consider?
Sean |
Author: Tautriadelta
Monday, 21 December 1998 - 04:00 pm | |
| Does anyone know where I could find a copy of the Ripper's diary? |
Author: judith stock
Tuesday, 22 December 1998 - 12:47 am | |
for a copy of "the diary of jack the
ripper" by shirley harrison, try clicking
onto amazon.com here on the casebook.
because the book is titled "the diary of jack the ripper", this does not necessarily mean it is a copy of the ripper's diary. |
Author: Matthew Delahunty (Dela)
Friday, 12 March 1999 - 08:32 am | |
I suppose this is as good a spot as any to ask this question.
Could somebody please tell me what James Maybrick's other Christian names were? As he was Catholic I'm assuming he had more than one Christian name. (I've probably seen it somewhere but I can't currently recall)
Dela |
Author: Matthew Delahunty (Dela)
Friday, 12 March 1999 - 10:55 am | |
My instincts tell me that his second name probably begins with N but I could be wrong
Dela |
Author: nick
Friday, 12 March 1999 - 01:23 pm | |
| If my memeory serves me correctly, he had no middle name. |
Author: Christopher T. George
Friday, 12 March 1999 - 04:43 pm | |
Hi, Dela:
I believe Nick is correct, or at least as his name is given in Shirley Harrison's "The Diary of Jack the Ripper" and Paul Feldman's "Jack the Ripper: The Final Chapter," neither of which appear to call Jim anything but James Maybrick. "The Declaration of a Free Burgess of the Town of Liverpool" making Maybrick a freeman of Liverpool in 1876 reproduced in Freeman's book only gives his name as "James Maybrick." Moreover, in the inscription in the front of the bible to his common-law wife Sarah Robertson dated 1865, also reproduced in Feldman, he wrote his initials as "JM." In inscribing his initials we might expect if he had a middle initial, he would have given it.
Chris George |
Author: Matthew Delahunty (Dela)
Saturday, 13 March 1999 - 08:12 am | |
I'm well aware of the documentation which Maybrick had signed. However, how often do most people use their middle name when signing or intialling anything. I know I don't. I was just after some confirmation of a middle name or not through say a birth certificate or some affidavit that Maybrick may have signed. I assume that someone has checked his birth certificate. Of course I readily accept that it's quite possible that he had no middle name - interestingly I've seen none of the other family members listed with middle names - including on the family headstone. I would think it somewhat unlikely though as the family was reportedly Catholic.
Dela |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Saturday, 13 March 1999 - 12:25 pm | |
Matthew:
There's no birth certificate for poor old Jim Maybrick: they didn't become mandatory until some years after his birth. There is a christening record and also his marriage certificate. The christening was at St. Peters, Liverpool, a Church of England church. He married at St. James' Church Piccadily, also Church of England. Both churches were Protestant: the chances therefore of Jim being Catholic are extremely remote. At no time did he use a second name; not when christened, not when married or on his death certificate. The only mention of a second initial is when Kenneth W. Rendell calls him "James T. Maybrick." This is a mistake but whether on Rendell's part or on the part of others is unknown.
Feldy did offer me £200 to find Jimm's birth certificate but if it's not recorded, that's that.
Peter. |
Author: Christopher T. George
Saturday, 13 March 1999 - 11:40 pm | |
Hi, Dela:
Another item to note is that the authors of "The Jack the Ripper A to Z" in listing a subject do give the full names of any persons they index in their indispensible tome. Thus, therein, in their third edition (1996), they list on p. 289 as a "Recently alleged suspect," "MAYBRICK, JAMES (1838-89)" and on p. 481, crime historian Richard Whittington-Egan, who will shortly come out with a new book, as "WHITTINGTON-EGAN, RICHARD ALPHONSE BERNARD BARRINGTON CANNINGTON (1924- )."
Chris George |
Author: Matthew Delahunty
Sunday, 14 March 1999 - 08:07 am | |
Thanks Peter & Chris,
Looks like I'll just have to accept no middle name - at least for the time being. Married at St James Church in Picadilly, hey? No doubt the St James which the diarist planned to burn down!
Dela |
Author: Christopher T. George
Sunday, 14 March 1999 - 09:03 am | |
Hey Dela:
I had not thought the references in the Diary referred to St. James's Church, Picadilly, where James and Florence where married. Rather, I thought the diarist was talking about St. James's Palace, because much of his raging seems to be centered on the Royal family as well as Florie. However, the possibility that he might have meant St. James's Church, Picadilly, where James married his wife, adds another dimension. Thanks.
Chris George |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Sunday, 14 March 1999 - 12:34 pm | |
Matthew:
I think that even if you wait for Time's winged chariots to come cruising around your roof in company with Santa Claus and a gigantic dung beetle pushing the sun you're still not going to come up with a second name for Jim Maybrick.
Peter |
Author: Caroline
Monday, 15 March 1999 - 05:33 am | |
Shall we invent one then?
What about L for Loopy or Lupin? Didn't Monty Python do a sketch about these lovely English 'flaars'? And do they bloom in the Spring, tra la? or Maybrick's favourite summer months?
My Jack was probably more into 'I'll Pick a Rose for my Rose', or 'Love Grows Where My Rosemary Goes' by Edison Lighthouse, or even more aptly, 'Lily the Pink' by Scaffold.
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Matthew Delahunty
Monday, 15 March 1999 - 07:24 am | |
I asked this question a while ago and got no reply. Can anyone find out for me who or what was located at "29 Fleet Street, London"? I don't know whether the London is London City or not. There were also Fleet Streets in Blackfriars and Bethnal Green, so if anyone can find residents for one or all of these addresses I'd like to know.
Dela |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Monday, 15 March 1999 - 02:02 pm | |
Regarding Jim Maybrick's family it's interesting to note the coincidence of names. James Maybrick's father was William, a printer and engraver. His grandfather was also William, clerk of St. Peter's who lived in 1844 at 16 Basnett St. James had a brother Michael who became a musician/composer/vocalist.
There was another William Maybrick who was born in 1773, was a composer and died in 1843 in Liverpool. He had a son, Michael, born 1799, a composer and organist at St. Peter's Liverpool. He died in Liverpool in 1846 and was probably a cousin of James.
Peter |
Author: Jim DiPalma
Wednesday, 17 March 1999 - 06:54 pm | |
Hi Caz,
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore,
riding through the land
He robs from the poor
and gives to the rich,
Stupid *****
Ring a bell now, luv?
Cheers,
Jim |
Author: Caroline
Thursday, 18 March 1999 - 04:52 am | |
Oh God, Jim, that takes me right back. I'm 16 again! Thanks.
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Matthew Delahunty
Wednesday, 31 March 1999 - 10:42 am | |
A few weeks ago there was a reference to St James' Church in Picadilly where James Maybrick was married. I assume the church still stands. Could someone please tell me the address?
Dela |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Thursday, 01 April 1999 - 10:55 am | |
Matthew:
If you want to write to the church "The Incumbent, St. James Church, Piccadily, London" would be sufficient. If you want a copy of the marriage certificate let me know and I'll pick it up for you next time I'm in London. It'll cost £6.50.
Peter. |
Author: Caroline
Thursday, 01 April 1999 - 01:16 pm | |
Hi Dela,
Add W1 to the address Peter correctly gave above. Make sure you include the Piccadilly bit though, 'cause there is also a St.James Church very close by, in Spanish Place, off Oxford Street, where my own great (great again?) grandparents got spliced. Not having been near either in my life, I can't tell you their state of repair, but there are crosses marked in the appropriate places in my Greater London Street Atlas of 1987.
Hope this helps.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Matthew Delahunty
Friday, 02 April 1999 - 09:29 am | |
Thanks Peter and Caroline. Shortly after I posted my last message I managed to find an address on some webpage and the opening hours, etc. I asked because I have been doing some research into some letters and some street names popped up - Fleet St and Duke St. When I brought up Duke St on a map of London I noticed there is one in the vicinity of St James and Picadilly. However, the Duke St in this letter is more likely to be Duke St, Whitechapel - but I'm still looking into it. If there's a Duke St or a Fleet St or a Stafford St in Liverpool I'd like to know just for the record (I can't access a Liverpool street map).
Dela |
Author: Christopher T. George
Sunday, 04 April 1999 - 04:29 pm | |
Hi, Dela:
To answer your question about Liverpool street names, not trusting to my failing memory (ha ha), I have consulted my trusty Liverpool A to Z (almost as indespensible as my Jack the Ripper A to Z) and can confirm that indeed Duke Street, Fleet Street, and Stafford Street are all Liverpool street names, located in the older part of Liverpool and, yes, most definitely there, for what it is worth, in the era of James and Florence Maybrick and Jack the Ripper. Fleet Street and Duke Street run parallel to each other southeast of the town center between Hanover Street and Berry Street, and just south of Central Station. You will well remember that James wanted to send another letter to Central :-) Stafford Street meanwhile is a street east of the city center, behind Lime Street Station, running between Islington and London Road. I hope the above helps.
Chris George |
Author: Matthew Delahunty
Monday, 05 April 1999 - 10:14 am | |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that info. Perhaps from Central to Central?? I haven't formed any opinion on whether Maybrick wrote the letters (him writing the diary would have to be a pre-requisite) I'm researching but I am exploring whether it's a possibility. The handwriting doesn't match but that's part of my reason for the research!
Dela |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Sunday, 21 October 2001 - 07:11 am | |
Wokes the Chemist.
I would be interested in some clarification of this point in Shirley's book. The name "Wokes" is unusual in that there is only one person, a 13-year old girl with a similar name (Woakes) in Lancashire in the 1881 census. The only listed Arthur in the entire country is a 5-year old boy living in York, the son of William F. Wokes a Railway Inspector.
Did a Wokes come into the area after 1881 and open up a chemists shop? Maybe Arthur Siminson Wokes was born after 1881.
"Darling Piggy" Bible.
Shirley's Blake edition p. 39 gives us a reference to the death of "Sarah Ann Maybrick otherwise Robertson, spinster of independent means of 25 Cottesbrook Street New Cross." on January 17th 1927. Feldy's book states that she was aged 72 on the certificate making her born about 1855. He says that she was really aged 89, therefore being born about 1838.Now Sarah Ann has got several different ages: in 1851 she is 13 which is probably where Feldy gets the 1838 date. It should be noted that ages in this census could be very inaccurate. In 1881 she was 35 and in 1891 44 giving us 1846/47. In the quoted "Russell's Brief" she is supposed to be 2 years younger than Maybrick and therefore born about 1840.
Getting back to the Bible, it is stated as being found by locating the daughter of the informant on Sarah Ann's death certificate. The question is: can the dedication be proved to relate to Sarah Ann Robertson? The Robertson family details can be found in the LDS International Genealogical Index which lists information on the family of Alexander Hay Robertson the putative grandfather of Sarah Ann. Her baptism is not found there but should be findable in one of the Sunderland Parish Churches. Was this ever looked for and found? It would be interesting if it had shown the date of birth to be August 2nd or at the least a date of baptism shortly after that. Maybe there was a problem about the birth year? |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 21 October 2001 - 04:21 pm | |
Hi, Peter:
I have no doubt that Wokes the chemist was an actual bloke. Trevor Christie in Etched in Arsenic, p. 94, describes Wokes' appearance at Florence Maybrick's trial, but note that he gives the name as Thomas S. Wokes not Arthur Siminsin Wokes as Shirley Harrison does. It is thus a mystery why you can't find Wokes either in the 1881 Lancashire census or in the whole of Great Britain. Christie also shows photographs of the chemists shop with the name "Wokes" in evidence.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 21 October 2001 - 06:09 pm | |
Hi, again, Peter:
In a listing for Hull, Yorkshire, for 1892, I found a Wokes and Ellis, chemists. Probably not the same Wokes from whom Florie bought the flypapers in Grassendale, Liverpool, but possibly a relation?
See http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ERY/Hull/Hull92Alpha/Hull92Alpha23.html
The same listing gives a George Wokes of Wokes & Ellis as an auctioneer in Hull. By the way, the trial transcript for Florie's trial, on this site, gives the chemist's name as Thomas Symington Wokes not the way Shirley lists the name.
All the best
Chris George |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Monday, 22 October 2001 - 10:40 am | |
Chris:
Thanks for the clue. You'll see below the 1881 census record for Thomas S. Wokes of Hull. He presumably moved into the Liverpool area between 1881 and 1888 and opened a shop there. I would suspect that he married and the Arthur S. Wokes mentioned in Shirley's book is his son who may have taken over the business but obviously long after 1888. This makes it plain that Mrs. Gillian M. Wokes who gave Shirley the info. dropped a generation out of her story. Sam Wokes supposedly born C1903 if he talked to Gillian about "his father's belief in Florries innocence" was actually retailing something from a man who must have been only seven years old at the eldest in 1889. We therefore have a very remote tale. It would be interesting to see the copy of the note supposedly made by Sam. Could it have been simply a list of murder cases?
Dwelling: 12 Arlington St
Census Place: Holy Trinity, Kingston-upon-Hull, York, England
Source: FHL Film 1342152 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 4768 Folio 115 Page 14
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
George WOKES M 50 M Hull, York, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Auctioneer & Valuer
Emma WOKES M 49 F Hull, York, England
Rel: Wife
Kate WOKES U 23 F Hull, York, England
Rel: Daur
Lucy WOKES U 22 F Hull, York, England
Rel: Daur
Thomas S. WOKES U 20 M Hull, York, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Chemist & Druggist
Charles WOKES U 15 M Hull, York, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
George F. WOKES 11 M Hull, York, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Mary H. WOKES 9 F Hull, York, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Jane LAZENBY U 22 F Newland Nr Selby, York, England
Rel: Serv
Occ: General Servant Domestic |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 22 October 2001 - 11:35 am | |
Hi, Peter:
I am delighted that my internet search was sufficient to give you the clue to enable you to find the birth and family details for the evidently Hull-born chemist named Wokes who sold the flypapers to Florie and who testified at her trial, Thomas Symington Wokes! One little mystery solved at least! I also think you may be right, that the Arthur S. Wokes whom Shirley writes about may have been the Grassendale (Aigburth) chemist's son.
Best regards
Chris George |
