Author: Monty
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 08:31 am |        |
Simon,
I guess it doesnt feel right because nowhere, in police reports or newspapers does there mention a PC White finding a body at anytime or anywhere.
If it is proved somewhere that White was involved in a discovery of a body then the story will have some credence.
Monty
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Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 11:35 am | |
Simon,
You are correct. There is no evidence to support the provenance of the article or prove it a fake. So we are left with speculation and opinion, as usual for this case. And our ability to reason, of course.
That is a pretty scary scenario you mention about the couple stumbling onto JtR at work. If that happened don't you suppose the couple would want their "15 minutes of fame" and tell the press about it? On the other hand, maybe it was too traumatic and they might be afraid JtR would try to find them and silence them, so it is a possible scenario.
The "no other exits" is a big problem for the story because Mitre Square and Castle Alley did have other pedestrian exits. Did Dutfield's Yard have any way for pedetrians to exit the yard without leaving by the wooden gate on Berner Street? After the murder of Stride the police checked the doors of shops inside the yard so the thought must have occurred to them too there might be a way out for the murderer to use. It seems I read that a door from the club opened into the yard so it was possible the murderer could have walked into the club and if no one noticed, walked out through the main door.
My feeling about the "no exits" description is that this is one of those details that got confused in the retelling of the story. Someone once claimed there is no true cul-de-sac anywhere along Whitechapel Road. That could be true because what would be the purpose of such an enclosure? It sounds somewhat impractical. This part of the story does point in the direction of Dutfield's Yard as a more likely location. However, other parts of the story don't fit the Berner Street location.
My guess is this story was passed on word of mouth in the White family and after his death someone decided to write it down. When they did they may not have been familiar with the site and simply got the details wrong. Some people are not careful listeners. Or they never thought about this detail until after White had passed away and wasn't around to clarify this point. We know from experience that every time a story is told some of the details get lost in the retelling. If the story was told to White's wife and then she in turn told the story to a relative this detail may have been confused, or even added to the story by a listener who assumed this must be the case.
We can only speculate but the question must also be answered if this was a hoax, why does it relate to White and why in 1919?
Robeer |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 11:49 am | |
Monty,
Remember, in the Steve White article it is one of the stakeout officers who discovered the body, not White himself. In fact, according to the article White immediately gave chase to the suspect and was not around the murder scene as more police gathered. This makes sense because White is the only one who knows what he looked like.
There was a Met PC there almost simultaneous with City police. How did he get there so fast? We can only assume he was part of the White stakeout team. And keep in mind if this was a confidential stakeout then White does not want publicity which would only generate awkward questions.
Robeer |
Author: cue
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 07:24 pm | |
Hi,
Dutfields yard is a cul-de-sac,because someone could illegaly enter a house and exit from the back doesn't change it into a normal street.Its the only cul-de-sac of the murder sites. But a policeman didn't find the body???
Thanks cue |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 08:50 pm | |
Thanks for that Cue !
Further to that , we find Steve White engaged in enquiries in Berner Street in the days after the murder as he interviews Matthew Packer.
Because of the weather conditions mentioned in the account , I don't think Castle Alley fits the bill for the night in question and it wasn't a cul-de-sac anyway.
So , if it is referring to a murder the account must be referring to either Mitre Square or Dutfield's Yard. I would be willing to accept it was Mitre Square but I just feel Dutfield's Yard fits the description better , in fact it seems to fit the description almost exactly.
Its possible that this incident was hushed up as it might have looked bad for the Met that they had let the Ripper not only slip through their fingers , but go on to commit another murder !
I wish I had more time to devote to the case but I am so busy at the moment ; annoying really because it feels like the game is afoot again ! Aha Watson !
Simon |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 11:14 pm | |
Cue,
According to Bob Hinton, a Londonian, it can't be a cul-de-sac if a pedestrian can exit the enclosure without using the same entrance. If a pedestrian could use a door to a shop, apartment, house, or club and work his way out the other side I assume this area loses its official status as a true cul-de-sac.
Question: did the Der Arbeiter Fraint have an unlocked door that opened into Dutfield's Yard? One ripperologist speculated that JtR used this door to escape the yard after being trapped inside by Diemschutz and his ponycart.
So if a pedestrian can use a normal portal out of the yard is it still an official cul-de-sac? As I've said before in the States all 3 of these sites might be called cul-de-sacs. I am trying to determine how tight the definition is in normal London usage. While Dutfield's had no pedestrian pathway out the other side did it have a doorway that would allow egress from the yard?
Robeer |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 10 April 2002 - 11:32 pm | |
Simon,
Berner Street is the most likely site. It has more details going for it than the other sites. The only problem is in the White story he mentions the wall lamp, the empty houses for surveillance, and the fact that the police discovered the body. The White story does not mention the ponycart. He also indicates this was obviously another Ripper murder. However, it is not so obvious to a number of ripperologists. Once again these details may have been altered in the retelling, either unintentionally or by supposition.
If we can find a wall lamp that would give just enough light for eye reflection and an empty house situated on Berner Street to observe the entrance to Dutfield's Yard then these facts start to weigh heavy in favor of the Stride murder scene. By the way, I have wondered if JtR wore glasses and this is why White saw what he thought was such an eerie reflection from the eyes.
On the other hand, if a City PC was the one to see JtR close enough to give a good description then what was he doing on Berner Street? If JtR was seen coming out of Dutfield's Yard why would anyone claim it was a City PC that bumped into him? It also makes you wonder how the stakeout on Berner Street missed the scuffle and Liz screaming.
Now it is possible that a City PC was requested for undercover work as an unfamiliar face on the street. This would have the advantage of the City PC noticing suspicious characters he may have seen in the City patch. However, all the murders up to this one had been north of Whitechapel Road. Why would Dutfield's Yard be a stakeout target for JtR? Was this a common place for prostitutes to ply their trade?
Robeer |
Author: cue
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 06:10 am | |
Hi Robeer,
I guess the only cul-de-sacs in London then are surronded by sheer cliff walls.Hanbury street is a back yard.Mitre square has 3 ways in or out.
Thanks cue |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 08:04 am | |
Robeer,
I know White never found the body but his name does not appear in anything official. Im not saying that he has no connection to the murders but was just giving a possible reason to why no credence is given to his story.
Simon,
The couple you mention...the two unidentified witnesses at St James passage ?? The ones whose statements were destroyed thanks to Mr Hil-ter ?? The ones in your senario ??
Do you think we have a match ?
Monty
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Author: Robeer
Sunday, 14 April 2002 - 03:51 am | |
cue,
I agree. A true cul-de-sac might be hard to find in London. Would a "mew" be a cul-de-sac? I saw a mew behind Knightsbridge Street when I was in London. There was a pub named The Nag´s Head inside the mew. They claimed to be the oldest continuous pub in London. It was founded during the reign of Elizabeth I. The only way in or out was by the same entrance. In modern times mews became popular to own a flat. We were told Mick Jagger lived on a mew. Anyway the mew I saw would qualify as a cul-de-sac because there was no obvious pedestrian egress. However, this is my question to anyone who lives in London, if a pedestrian could walk through a door and somehow walk out the other side, is it still a cul-de-sac?
Robeer |
Author: Robeer
Sunday, 14 April 2002 - 04:05 am | |
Hello all,
I will be in San Jose, Costa Rica until April 23rd. Someone on the message board mentioned that very similar murders took place in Nicaragua and Costa Rica after the murders ceasd in London. I have inquired as to which port ships would have used on the Atlantic coast of Costa Rica and the response was Limon. If anyone has any further detailed information on the murders in Costa Rica please post them here and I will do my best to research what they might have in San Jose.
Robeer |
Author: Michael Conlon
Sunday, 14 April 2002 - 07:08 pm | |
Hi Robeer,
I have never heard of any Ripper-like killings in Costa Rica, but only in Jamaica and Managua, Nicaragua in 1889, and in New York City in 1891.
Regards,
Mike |
Author: Monty
Monday, 15 April 2002 - 08:30 am | |
Robeer,
Im slightly baffled by the interpretations of a cul-de-sac.
So Im gonna throw in my pennths worth.
A CUL-DE-SAC to me is a road/street that has only one public entrance. A no through way (is that what they are called is the US?). Usually vehicles have to enter and leave by the same entrance.
Sure you could go through someones private doors to escape but only if they are open or with permission (unless your a burglar of course).
So, I guess that yes, you can enter a cul-de-sac and exit via different ways.
Some Mews are cul-de-sacs, some have 2 entrances.
They are (or nowadays were) stables for the horses that pulled carriages during the good ol' days and were usually situated behind the houses that owned them. A victorian version of our modern day garages.
Hope it helps.
Baffled and sore Monty
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Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 12:00 am | |
Mike,
Thanks for the input. I had not seen Costa Rica mentioned before either. A post on the message board caught my attention because I was planning a trip to Costa Rica. Perhaps the post had it confused with Jamaica. If anyone knows more about the possibility of JtR MO type murders in the Caribbean in 1889 please let me know.
Thanks,
Robeer |
Author: Michael Conlon
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 12:30 am | |
No problem, Robeer,
Enjoy Costa Rica!
Mike |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 12:39 am | |
Monty,
I am confused too. That is why I´m trying to clarify the definition of cul-de-sac. Bob Hinton makes a good point that if we accept the description of the murder scene as a true cul-de-sac in the strictest interpretation of the term then it eliminates Mitre Square and Castle Alley as possible sites. That leaves Dutfields Yard as the only possible site. It seems like I remember Hinton mentioning there is no true cul-de-sac anywhere in Whitechapel, which is why he discredits the Steve White story as a hoax.
So if Dutfields Yard has a door from the club that opens to the yard and allows passage through the club and out the front door, does this still qualify as a cul-de-sac? I agree with the direction you are going in that it hinges on whether the egress is for public access. Was the public allowed in the club or would so many members having access to the doors almost count as public access? Or if the door was used by so many members could non members come and go unnoticed?
I know this is splitting hairs a bit and the phrase cul-de-sac may have been just a poor choice
of words many years later in the writing of a memoir. It is entirely possible another member in the White family tried to record a story that White told but never put in writing. If he was by some chance actually involved in a secret stakeout of Mitre Square and also was involved in the investigation on Berner Street the following day then the listener may have become confused as to the story.
In the end the significance of the White story is important more for who it eliminates than who it implicates. If this meeting actually happened to White and he did give a good description then it narrows the field to a handfull of known suspects.
Robeer |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 07:48 am | |
Robeer,
Strictly speaking, no Dutfields yard is not a cul-de-sac.
I would go along with the too many people coming and going that it was hard to notice theory.
Theres a pub in Leicester, it has 2 entrances, one opens to a road, the other (on the opposite side to the pub) opens onto a parrallel road.
During the winter months, to get to were Im going, I take a short cut through that pub because its quicker and warmer. I know Im not the only one that does this. Im sure the landlord knows this but if one of us stops for a pint then I think its something that he is happy to endure.
Sorry if you feel this pointless but it does show that what may seem impossible to pass isnt quite so.
Take your point about the possible miss placing of the term Cul-de-sac. If true then it changes the whole perspective of the story.
Monty
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Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 04:34 pm | |
Monty,
Don´t feel it pointless at all. The English language is fascinating in itself because of the nuances and various shades of meanings. Cul-de-sac is a borrowed phrase so is there an English equivalent to this term? Box canyon is about the only one I can think of but it is more US vernacular. A square, quadrangle, close, or alley might be used to describe Mitre Square. Would a "close" be the same as a cul-de-sac in the strict sense of the word? I think Rumbelow referred to Mitre Square as a close.
Perhaps the White story should not pivot on one single word. We all hear people use words that are not exactly right but we know what they mean. What is the difference between a street, avenue, boulevard, lane, road, etc? Each of these may have slightly different meanings to some people and others may use them to mean the same thing.
There are other aspects to the White story that we should give attention to. Was there an empty house on Berner Street the Met could use for a stakeout and was there a wall lamp anywhere close by that would suffice? If so then this story almost has to be the Stride murder. Only problem is how did the Met miss the scuffle where Liz cried out and there is no mention of the pony cart. And the Stride murder was not an obvious JtR MO. However, the author of the article is relying on Met detectives to classify this as a JtR murder.
If memory serves one of the men that Stride was heard talking to had a "soft" voice. Could this be the same as the White description of a "cultured" voice?
Robeer |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 08:10 am | |
Robeer,
Around my way "close" would be the exact term for Mitre Sq.....as would cul-de-sac. I suppose its the English verion of the french version.
I have always had the feeling that Whites story could be linked to Clay pipes murder but out of the 5 more accepted victims then yes, I'd pick Stide over Eddowes.
How did they miss the scuffle ??
We only really have Schwartzs word that the scuffle did happen. Take that away and it gets closer to Whites story.
Monty
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Author: Robeer
Friday, 03 May 2002 - 02:38 am | |
Monty,
I contacted a Professor Stephen White to see if perchance he was a relative of DI Steve White. Very interesting response:
Quote:Dear Robeer,
Alas, no. At least not that I know of. Most of my family migrated to America in the 18th century. For what it is worth, White was (is) a common name in the Limerick, Ireland. And was (is) common for the second son, I believe, to be named Stephen. Anyway, there are many Stephen Whites. See my bookmarks under "The Many Stephen Whites." I am happy to know of another!
Stephen White
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Author: Monty
Friday, 03 May 2002 - 08:16 am | |
Robeer,
Good work, thanks.
Another interesting note...my father is from the Limerick area. I am the eldest of two brothers...bet you cant guess what my little bro is called ??
I shall ask him tonight.
Monty
PS Surname not White though....and he is 22. Out of our age range anyway. |
