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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **

Finger prints

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Letters: General Discussion: Finger prints
Author: Seth Bock
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 03:09 pm
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I'm wondering if anyone has ever done an analysis of the finger print said to be visible on one of the Ripper letters. Is it the first or second Ripper letter (I can't remember). If one wanted to get a blown-up photograph of that finger print what would that necessitate? Being the last known fan of Richard Wallace (at least on the message board), I'm considering the possibility of trying to match finger prints. Humor me, but do answer.

Seth

Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 04:36 pm
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Dear Seth,

You have an interesting suggestion if you have a stock of suspects fingerprints to match them with.
Rosey :-)

Author: Jon
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 08:07 pm
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you party-pooper, Rosie.
:)

Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Friday, 15 June 2001 - 12:46 pm
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Dear Jon,

Not necessarily so...comparison and confirmation of fingerprint evidence would ID the letter-writer, and he/she could also be a Casebook Suspect for "Jack".Its just possible some fingerprint evidence is available...but too expensive and complex a task to collate.(sigh)
Rosey :-)

Author: Seth Bock
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 08:26 am
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I thought finger print analysis involved a blown up photograph of the finger prints. Is that really expensive? It would seem to me finger print analysis would be the most direct way to rule out suspects for whom that information was available. Or, more importantly, rule someone in!
This all assumes the Ripper letter we're deriving the source print from is "real." For all the complexity this may involve, I can't imagine Riperologists not being capable of that rigor.

I would be interested in knowing what one would have to do set these gears in motion?

Seth

Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 08:41 am
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Hi Seth:

The fingerprint you are talking about is on the Saucy Jacky postcard received by the Central News Agency on Monday, October 1, 1888. While fingerprint analysis is a possibility, it would only get us anywhere if we had fingerprints for the suspects, which we probably do not. Besides which, even if we got a match, that would not prove the writer was the killer, just that they probably wrote the postcard. Still, an interesting thought and a line of enquiry someone may want pursue.

Best regards

Chris George

Author: Seth Bock
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 09:15 am
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for your thoughts. Like any other line of evidence, any singular piece of plausible evidence (save for a photograph or DNA...)is just that, a piece of evidence. I know I'm preaching to the converted on that question. However, think of the credibility a finger print match would lend to any of the Ripper suspects. That would make the headlines of this Ripper page and change the flow of research (at least temporarily). I agree that the difficulty might lie in finding finger prints for each suspect, let alone one. But what if?... The suspect that I'm most interested in (Dodgson) did leave a finger print on a letter now stored in Pennsylvania. It would certainly take some cooperation to start a "database" of finger prints, but might be a new and useful tool, if not now, in the future.

yours truly,

Seth

Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 09:46 am
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Hi, Seth:

To play Devil's advocate, how do we know that in regard to the fingerprint on the Dodgson (Lewis Carroll) letter, he did leave that fingerprint on the letter you say is now stored in Pennsylvania? Surely the fingerprint could have been put there by anybody in the years since Dodgson wrote the letter, or do we know that it is his because Dodgson knowingly made the fingerprint there as one of his games?

Best regards

Chris George

Author: Seth Bock
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 11:29 am
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Hi Chris,

I s'pose that if the finger print on the Dodgson letter matched that of the Saucy Jack letter we would be able to rule out several scenarios. Ruling out those scenarios we would then do a more serious analysis of handwriting, ink, etc... I'm not a forensic pathologist so I can only guess what would be required to see a statistically significant P value. Since the letter I mention has been in the U.S. for so long there would be very little probability that someone forsaw Richard Wallace and planted a seed for him? A positive match would not necessarily prove anything, but it would be an interesting twist in a much derided theory. Don't you think? By the way, I traced a thread since my last post. Apparently it is possible for someone to look at letters stored in the police files. Do you think they would allow someone to take a photo of a letter?

Thanks,
Seth

Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 12:25 pm
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Hi, Seth:

Yes, Stewart P. Evans photographs the letters at the Public Record Office on a regular basis. His upcoming book written with Keith Skinner Jack the Ripper: Letters from Hell, due for publication this fall, promises to be a fascinating study of a talked-about but nevertheless much neglected corner of study of the Whitechapel murders. I along with many of us here await its publication with much anticipation.

The letter by Dodgson that is in Pennsylvania would be worth further study. If I might ask, where is it archived?

Best regards

Chris George

Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 12:27 pm
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Oh.... I should have mentioned though that the actual Saucy Jacky postcard has gone AWOL from the Public Record Office. The PRO does have the police poster made from the postcard which does show the smudge of the fingerprint and could perhaps be used in lieu of the real thing.

Chris

Author: Seth Bock
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 01:22 pm
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for the tip. The Dodgson letter I've been refering to is at Bryn Mawr (sp?), outside of Philly. Philly is only a 7hr trip from Boston so I could be there by 9 tonight if I put a move on it (if only it were that easy).

I'll have to see if there are any large blow ups of the Saucy Jack postcard/finger print, and then make a trip to Penn. (Astounding what one will do to prove their pet theory.)

Thanks for your help.

Seth

Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 05:16 pm
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Dear Seth,

Fingerprints are not a science...more of an art-form. That well-known maxim..."no two prints are the same", is subtley different from... "no two prints CAN be the same".
The Nightmare makes her nest in many trees.
Second-Hand Rose :-)

Author: Seth Bock
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 09:18 am
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Dear Rosey,

Good point. Finger printing is really not much different than PCR analysis, or tree ring dating for that matter. Aspects of art are involved, perhaps, but as far as evidence is concerned, it is enough to lock someone and up throw away the key. I guess on that level it's as hard as any other science. Once the data is in the computer it is up to statistics to determine whether there is a match.

Seth

Author: Stephen P. Ryder
Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 10:04 am
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Came across an interesting letter to the editor while adding Viper's latest press articles, in what appears to be the first mention of finger-printing in relation to the Ripper crimes:


Quote:


3 October 1888
Times (London)

TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES.

Sir, - Another remarkable letter has been written by some bad fellow who signs himself "Jack the Ripper." The letter is said to be smeared with blood, and there is on it the print in blood of the corrugated surface of a thumb. This may be that of a man or a woman.

It is inconceivable that a woman has written or smeared such a letter, and therefore it may be accepted as a fact that the impression in blood is that of a man's thumb.

The surface of a thumb so printed is as clearly indicated as are the printed letters from any kind of type. Thus there is a possibility of identifying the blood print on the letter with the thumb that made it, because the surface markings on no two thumbs are alike, and this a low power used in a microscope could reveal.

I would suggest - (1) That it be proved if it is human blood, though this may not be material; (2) that the thumbs of every suspected man be compared by an expert with the blood-print of a thumb on the letter; (3) that it be ascertained whether the print of a thumb is that of a man who works hard and has rough, coarse hands, or whether that of one whose hands have not been roughened by labour; (4) whether the thumb was large or small; (5) whether the thumb print shows signs of any shakiness or tremor in the doing of it.

All this the microscope could reveal. The print of a thumb would give as good evidence as that of a boot or shoe.

I am, yours, &c.,
FRED. W. P. JAGO.
Plymouth.


Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 10:19 am
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Hi, Stephen:

Thanks for posting this. Indeed! A lost opportunity on the part of the police of the day!!! It would not be, I believe, until a decade later that Scotland Yard accepted the practice of using fingerprint evidence. The technique was pioneered in India and although it was known and discussed in England, as we see from this letter, it was not yet officially adopted by the authorities as a viable means of apprehending criminals. It is ironic that dippy "scientific" methods such as phrenology, the classifying of criminals by the shape of their heads, were thought legitimate means of studying criminals, an exact and definitive method for identifying criminals such as fingerprinting had not yet been adopted in 1888.

Best regards

Chris George

Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 10:23 am
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Hi, all:

Since the "letter" or more correctly the Saucy Jacky postcard which is I think what the writer to The Times is referring to was almost certainly from a hoaxer, all the fingerprint would tell us is who wrote the missive and probably not who was the murderer.

Best regards

Chris George

Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 11:23 am
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Dear Chris,

Hoaxes tend to be 'multiple' events...in this instance, I deduce that yours truly...Jago...
is stirring the ginger beer bottle a mite!
Rosey Holmes :-)

Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 04:36 pm
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Wow, Rosey, just what I was thinking! :)

Love,

Caz

Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 06 August 2001 - 07:20 am
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Little Jack Scorner
Sat in his corner,
Writing his Xmas Pied
He stuck in his thumb
And pulled out a pun,
"Oh, what a good boy am I",
He cried,
"Oh, what a good boy am I".

Digitel Rosie?
:-)

Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 06 August 2001 - 07:29 am
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(While the Caz is away this mouse will play!)
Rosey...The Velvet Mouthtrap :-)

Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Monday, 20 August 2001 - 12:07 pm
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Caz is back, but has no wish to trap Roseymouth in her ripping clauses.

Love,

The Caz

Author: Katarina
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 10:50 pm
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Well, there has been alot of studies with the letters themselves..they are so old it is so hopeless to find even anything worth working with.


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