Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:29 am |        |
Rick,
I've just noted you're 10.05 am post.
If you've retreated to being English, instead of British
1) Sort out the "nightshirts" yourselves.
2) Get tarred by Ally.
Now in the huff.
Jim |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:30 am | |
Hi all,
It seems that the views of America are primarily separated into two camps - those who believe America is a flawed but benevolent super power intent on justice or those who find America a sort of big clumsy bully.
As an American, I think both perceptions are wrong. America, I believe, is truly a rich and powerful country gripped in fear. We are a very frightened people who see dangers everywhere.
That is why in America the right to carry a gun is so important to so many - most Americans live in fear they are going to be attacked.
Here are some examples of unreasonable global fears America has expressed over the past 20 years:
1. Rebels in El Salvador would take over that country and eventually destabilize Mexico and threaten America.
2. The Sandinistas in Nicaragua were intent on crossing the Rio Grande and invading Texas.
3. The Cubans were building a runway in Grenada from where they would launch an attack on America.
4. Saddam Hussien is intent on attacking America
I could list dozens more but the point is made. The US is a very terrified country unable to comprehend the world outside its borders. This weekend the Vice President made the preposterious statement that the allies are not as eager to invade Iraq because they have never suffered the destruction the US has.
This is the basis of all American actions. What is truly frightening is that most US leaders and the American people really believe all these sinister characters are lurking around to topple us.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:40 am | |
No, Rich. The people at the Pentagon, World Trade Center, and Shanksville didn't die of fright.
David |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:47 am | |
Ally,
Consider it cease fired. Anyway, I'm too young to be inflexible!
Rich - it's true that we here in Britain have never suffered an act of terrorism to the degree of the WTC, I don't think anyone has. But personally, I have been on a train on the way home from work when a bomb went off the line just ahead of us. I was working in the City one Saturday morning when we had the second of the IRA's large bombs go off right outside. And finally the building that I am sitting in right now has been extensively damaged by bombs twice. That's not counting the numerous scares and alerts. I was also in central Auckland the night those French scoundrels blew up the Rainbow Warrior. (maybe I'm bad luck!)
So I wouldn't consider your VP's comments as preposterous they may look at first sight. I think we have had time to get used to the possibility of being victims of terrorism, whereas you guys have had it all in one go.
I don't know anyone who would call America a bully. Possibly a touch paranoic on occasion, going by your examples! But I do know a lot of people who are deeply concerned about rushing into things without the backing of the global community.
What is truly frightening is that there ARE sinister characters lurking round to topple you. And us. A couple of nights ago I saw an interview with an extremist who said that his goal was to see Britain as a Muslim state, and with the Red Crescent flying over Downing Street...... |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 12:00 pm | |
David,
Actually, those people died of indifference. Terrorism has struck Americans around the globe but since most Americans don't relate to those in the foreign service or military, no one seems to care.
Only now, after America was struck in its homeland, do American really worry about terrorism.
Graham,
I consider the VP's statement preposterous in that he apparently is ignoring the suffering of WW2.
America is considering something no other western democracy has ever done - invade and conquer a nation for simply not doing what it wants. Who does that remind us of in a historical context?
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 12:03 pm | |
........ not forgetting, a spokesman who, after the Islamic Convention at Finchley said the attack on the twin towers was "inadvisable - but legitimate". Standing adjacent to a sign that said Islam Will Dominate the World.
Where's the best place for these "people". Can I suggest being held illegally at that base in Cuba.
Jim |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 12:09 pm | |
Rich,
It reminds me historically of every war that's ever been fought, if you put it like that.
Jim |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 12:12 pm | |
Rich,
That's true, if you care to have a detatched view of what happened. As indifferent as America was, I'd disagree that we're responsible for what happened a year ago. To say so diminishes the responsibility of extremists everywhere.
David |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 12:15 pm | |
Greetings all:
I think Linus said it best...
"There are three things that you should never talk about in public... religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin."
And I think we all need to be mindful of throwing out derogatory names when referring to people of other cultures and/or origins. This is not Left-Wing whingeing, just a reminder to be gentle to others' souls. There are a lot of people that read this message board that do not post. Do we really want people to think that we are a bunch of uncouth, foul-mouthed squabblers?
I prefer to be thought of as a very cultured, well-spoken squabbler.
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 01:56 pm | |
It perhaps is a sad truth, but all nations that exert their power in remote areas of the globe suffer from terrorism - from the Romans, to the Brits, to the USA.
America, rightly or wrongly, has decided it has the supreme right to determine the fate of other nations and peoples. The natural response by those who hate that situation, if they do not have the power of military force, is to resort to terrorism.
This by no means suggests I endorse or excuse the acts of those who flew planes into buildings. I am merely explaining why these things happen to megapowers.
There really is only two choices America has - to either be self-contained and base its foreign policy on humanitarian goals or to remain a power that frequently dictates who shall lead other countries via military power. If the latter is the choice, we must accept that we will be at a permanent state of war with those who resist our intrusions.
This is exactly what has happened to every colonial power in world history. Regardless how supportive or benevolent, it is resented and hated by the natives.
Rich |
Author: TS Simmons
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 01:59 pm | |
This is neither a forum to "bash" Britain or the United States, both countries of which I am quite fond. The most important issue remains that they, along with the other civilized countries in the world remain allied to protect their people against terrorism, and ensure continued freedom and peace...
(incidentally, I consider Britain to be the greatest country in the world, and the most culturally/historically rich. I always feel welcomed and at home in Britain! I'd move there if I could...And i'm Canadian!!! |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 02:28 pm | |
Jim what have I said or done to put you in a huff?.I'll try and explain myself if you tell me what!
Rick |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 02:47 pm | |
Rick,
  
Jim |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 04:24 pm | |
Heck Jim, if I were a Scot I'd be a proud bloke as well, when I see and hear the pipes and drums,--- well it certainly straightens the back and gives you a feeling. The pipes and drums played their part, (I noticed) at the memorial for the New York Fire Department. I apologise Jim, and I won't do it again I just wish the English team had a good song to sing at the international football competitions, to compete with you Scots, Welsh, and Irish, I quite fancy Jupiter/I vow to thee my country, but it seems nobody else does.
All the Best Och Aye
Rick |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 05:12 pm | |
| Mr.Dewar.....the reason the VP Cheney said that was that he is a member of the ongoing pro-Zionist regime that has been in power here in the US for decades........Presidents come and go,but the policy is the same....Cheney,the tough guy,has been allowed a far longer leash than say,a member of the Nixon Administration would have,had the possibility of complicity in financial shenanigans been even suspected of a Nixonian cabinet member........No more than faint rumblings about Cheney..Now that the Zionist think tank that runs the show has him where they want him,the wire pullers are more than happy to see him rant. If Graham Jay was referring to blowhards like this guy,then I owe him an apology. As I stated,Graham,Americans don't want war for the sake of war...Some of our politicians are and solely for the Bandit State of Israel's benefit......But,Graham,if this Hussein is in violation of the developing weapons for mass destruction proviso,then I say..take the homeboy out. |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 05:47 pm | |
Howard,
I couldn't agree more, and I think many people currently opposed to war with Iraq would see it as a necessity if proof were provided. I don't know how it stands in the States at the moment, but over here Tony Blair claims to have a dossier that proves war is necessary, and that he "will publish it soon". Haven't seen it as yet, but it should make interesting reading. If it shows the weapons are there then Hussein has to go. If it doesn't... well, do we have the right? That's the million dollar question. |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 06:21 pm | |
"Peter Birchwood and Graham Jay: thanks for the mini-history
of American covert activity !" No problem, glad you appreciated it. And although we all appreciated US help during the last war they came in typically late and for their own policy reasons. Please remember that the largest Fascist party outside Germany and Italy was in the US. Remember Lindbergh and "America First?"
Certainly the US is the major power now but how long will that last? We managed to divest ourselves of an Empire within about 30 years leaving a few enemies but a lot more friends. Will the US be able to say that when the time comes?
Maybe you could be more specific about your Churchill quote. I don't recognise it but that's not to say that he didn't say it. As you put it, it doesn't make too much sense; maybe there's a bit missing.
")....I don't
want my daughter to live in fear of some sand eaters with a
bomb," Is this the famous American Liberal way of words? Perhaps you find the expression "towel-heads" too banal.
"By the way,why should we 'remember"
the Chilean victims of the CIA coup?" Because dead people are dead people whether they are killed by terrorists or CIA assets. Or do you subscribe to the "Better dead than red" theory. Obviously so if you have that rather 1960's attitude to "Commies." Didn't the late Senator McArthy (is that spelling right?) say rather a lot about the 40 more or less card-carrying communists in the US State Department?
In fact my wife and I have been contributing regularly over the past few years to charitable work in Central and South America. We're both too young to have been directly involved in anything there in the '70's. It's little enough but perhaps it helps. It may be more than a yearly subscription to the John Birch Society.
Anyway, good luck to you Howard. Kill a Commie for Christ!
Richard P. Dewar:
I think that you are right. Another point that has been made by many is that America is truly a land of immigrants, its original indigenous population having virtually no role in it today. Therefore there is no great history to the country and perhaps because of that, a lack of stability. One of our English TV presenters Jon Ronson recently infiltrated Bohemian Grove and taped the Great and the (mainly White, Elderly and Male) Good, urinating in the streets, burning wooden owls, dressing in drag and generally having a high old time. Daddy Bush was there as well as John Major! The point that Ronson made was that America is a young country and hasn't yet learned to laugh at itself and its history.
I don't think I'm an armchair anything: certainly not liberal. I just react according to how I feel.
I had just put this to bed with the idea of not bothering to post it due to peace and love breaking out everywhere when I saw Howard's latest. Now it's perfectly plain that for many years the US Government has been overly sympathetic to the State of Israel: probably for the understandable reason that there are a lot more Jewish voters there than are Arab voters. But referring to Zionist Think Tanks and "Bandit
State of Israel" is only a little removed from the infamous term: ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government) which is bandied about by the sort of people who were using shorter and more earthy terms for Jews a few years ago. Now a few home truths:
There really is no international Jewish Conspiracy. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were faked back about 1909 by the Tzarist Government. The Rulers of the World do not issue orders for wars, famines and attrocities from an anonymous room although every so often they pop off to Bilderberger conferences and spend a few days playing golf and discussing world affairs. There really is no conspiracy headed by the House of Windsor in cooperation with the Rockefellers or Rothschilds. The Holocaust really, really happened.
I thought you'd like to know that. |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 07:13 pm | |
Yep.. Definitely a case of the teeny-wheeny weinie complex and attempting to rationalize your impotence by claiming your mind is of a higher celibate purpose.
We understand...us Big Dogs don't hold it against you. |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:08 pm | |
| Dear Peter: Again,thanks for the info on the Holocaust....despite 25 programs a day on US TV,I needed your confirmation about it. Churchill did say it and when I find it,I will send it to you. He was referring to the remarkable work that the National Socialists were doing bringing their nation out of ruin. No need for a Protocols of Zion mention. Back when I was a member of the Nat.Socialist Sand Eater-Haters ,I learned that they were phoney. I also know that you don't know how many British,off the top of your head,died in WW2....but you DO know how many died in the,ahem,Holocaust. Ever wonder why? I promised a fellow American female poster I would not be so brusque in my posts.Divia........how did I do? |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:09 pm | |
Peter,
The fact that the US had a bigger Fascist Party than Britain, probably had something to do with it having a larger population. Have you ever heard of Oswald Mosely or Cable Street ?
You're continued jibes aimed at the Americans (typically late,liberal way of words, 60s attitude to commies, no great history, hasn't learned to laugh at itself) will only remind our friends across the water, why they left here in the bloody first place.
Ally,
It's not what you've got it's how you abuse it.  .
This Big Dog thing, remember the biggest beast in the forests can be brought down by jackals. Stay in the pack. |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:18 pm | |
Hey Jim,
Don't worry, even though you have Peter you also have scones and clotted cream. I've learned to make the scones but I swear our cows are too dang Yankee to produce the requisite something for clotted cream...sigh. |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:23 pm | |
| Mr Jenkinson....Peter knows all of that. All the left leaning folks I know,know it too. Why? Because they are usually more educated,read more,and are just bright folks..........Just like the bright folks who came up with the absurd idea that communism( remember them? kinda like the hula hoop ! ) would work......that Zimbabwe would thrive with a name change.....that Castro was a cool dude........that selling British secrets to the KGB( those Cambridge types....)was "noble".....that giving A-bomb secrets to the Reds would create parity in the world.....Yep. Bright folks. |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:24 pm | |
Dear Howard:
I know you are trying very hard. You are to be commended for trying to keep a civil hand. But, when in doubt, just go back to the "Do's and Don'ts" page... it contains all you need to know.
Also, there's my old reliable standby: "poster's name inserted here, you seem stressed... do you think chocolate would help?".
Remember guys, we're supposed to be FRIENDS! Let's not quibble! If you must, take it somewhere else! Would someone please let me know when this thread returns to "Princess Diana"?
Regards,
Divia |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 09:04 pm | |
Hello Chris, Thanks for giving me the outline of the Black Dahlia case. I'd like to ask you more, either here or in the chat room but I've got to go to bed, I've had a hard day house painting. So, I'll see you later about it if I can, thanks again.
All the Best
Rick |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 02:36 am | |
Hi, Rick:
The Black Dahlia case is a fascinating one and I would be happy to discuss it with you some more. There is a possibility that there is a link to the Cleveland torso case but that is by no means clear. The probability is that the two cases are separate and different killers were involved in Hollywood and Cleveland.
All the best
Chris |
