Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 04:24 am |        |
By all means remember the dead of the WTC - but spare a thought also for the dead innocents of Afghanistan caught up in the fighting there, and for the Taleban (not Al-Quaeda) soldiers who, not withstanding the rights and wrongs of their governments, did nothing wrong except fight to protect their country from an invading force and who are now still illegally held in Cuba. SPare a thought also for the upcoming dead in Iraq who will be caught in a war they have no control over. And no doubt there will be more in the years ahead.
Grieve for the dead in NY - but remember that that was only the start of the tragedy |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 05:29 am | |
| Please also remember the several thousand Chileans who on September 11th 1973 were killed during the US-Government instigated CIA led coup against the legitimate government of Salvador Allende. |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 06:31 am | |
or the 100,000 odd Guatemalans killed since the CIA instigating the deposing of it's legitimate ruler in 1951 in favour of a brutal but "America-friendly" regime.
Or the coup in Indonesia in 1965 by the US trained and backed Suharto which led to the murders of over 500,000 people by death squads working to "hit lists" provided by the US State Dept.
Angola, El Salvador, Nicaragua - the list goes on. America's record of interfering in the affairs of other countries is dreadful (even worse than us Brits!), but there is no point now in dwelling on the past. What the world needs to do now is make sure that history stops repeating itself.
Enough is being said now about the wisdom of going to war with Iraq, and there are valid arguments on both sides. But it's a dangerous precedent. How many countries can you invade on the basis that they may become a threat in the future?
One of the scariest things about 11/9 for me was the realisation afterwards of just how little the average American seemed to know about what their governments had been up to around the world. I'm not for one second saying that the attacks on the WTC were in any way justified, just that I would have hoped that America wouldn't have had to ask why they were so hated by some. |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 06:53 am | |
Or how about those poor Albanian rebels the Brits did in?
How about all those Afghans *you* limes killed? One of the scariest things for me is how your country is just as involved in atrocity as mine, but you seem to want to focus only on the actions of those across the pond. Why don't you get your own government sorted out before you start bitching about mine? Because it looks like Blair is going to side with the US whether you approve or not...why gee, rather like how it is over here. |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 07:39 am | |
Ally, I agree with you - British history is nothing to be proud of in that respect. But my point was we don't do it any more, rather like the fact that Guatamala etc are all past mistakes too.
All I'm saying is that it's time to stop! Every time you support a coup, or back one country against another, you make another enemy needlessly. Sooner or later those chickens come home to roost.
Actually, from my recollection of 19th century history, the Afghans kicked OUR butts! |
Author: Caroline Morris
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:59 am | |
One of the scariest things about 11/9 for me was the realisation that many had no idea they were sharing their world with evil people who had the motivation, means and opportunity to do such a terrible thing to their fellow man. Terrorism won't thrive without each of those elements.
The other scary thing for me is how little real capability it takes, and how few people need to be sufficiently motivated, to cause one hell of a lot of chaos and misery to those living and working in cities in the heart of the civilised world.
I really don't know what the answer is, or even if there is one. In a world where thousands of babies and children are dying daily from starvation and disease (not a question of where the blame lies, just another sad fact of life), while our teenagers (yes, mine too) are out buying their next pair of jeans and wondering if they can get away with a smaller size, fear for ourselves and future generations is relative. But if we want our own children to live in peace, safety and prosperity, we've got to be damned sure our governments can anticipate and deal with each little trick the next terrorist could come up with. Motivation is around every corner.
And so it goes on. 
Love,
Caz |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 09:05 am | |
| Yep Ally, if you were an American polititian who mattered, and we "Limes" had one who spoke the same way, then we would soon have a war between the U.K. and the U.S. Then your poor albanians, afghans, iraqi's and the rest of the nightshirt clans would be rolling about in the desert holding their bellies, laughing, at YOU who are being as you think "so noble, siding with them now |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 09:09 am | |
| Can't some of you people be reminded of a memorial for an atrocity without wanting to scrap about it!!!!! |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 09:35 am | |
Actually, Warwick, our politicians have been repeatedly jabbed at on these boards and it has yet to result in war between our nations.
There is a very vocal anti-American faction of Brits on this board who seem to consider it their sacred duty to point out the failings in our country while glossing over their own.
So to them I say, America right now is in the height of her power and I suspect the Brits are a bit jealous over their loss of status. Let's analyze what the Brits did at the height of their power and the countries they invaded or enslaved. Oh I know it was in the past blah blah..but you have a thousand years of invasions and conquests under your belts, who are you to pass judgment on the last 50 years of ours?
Ally |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:05 am | |
Ally,
Don't tar all the English with the same brush. On these boards, I don't know, but in general the English think a great deal of Americans,-- and I'm one of them. I've known them since I was a schoolboy aged ten yrs in 1942, I loved them then and I love them now!!! I'm not jealous of you,- I admire you, like most English people do, don't lump us with the night shirts Ally, when I visit your country I feel I'm still at home I've just moved into the next county.
Whatever is said in an anti American way on these boards, they are the minority. Think more of us who like and love America/ns Rick |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:13 am | |
I've always thought the jealousy is on the US's part - they'd love to have an empire of their own, like the British or Romans, but became a power just a little too late so had to settle for trying to control the world covertly.
Seriously though Ally, I wasn't trying to have a dig at America, nor to deny that Britain has done bad things in it's past. Both countries have done much to be proud of also. I'm sorry if I have offended you, but I do have a bad habit of speaking my mind - and I will admit to being one of the thousands of people that regularly demonstrated against US nuclear warships coming to New Zealand when I lived there. And that I won't apologise for!
All the best |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:19 am | |
Please, please let's not turn this discussion into an America vs. Britain thing, just because two posters felt the need to crap all over what was a day of mourning (and in the face of another poster who lost people in the attacks, and still others who live and work in the vicinity). Let's note that of the people posting thoughtful remarks here, most were British.
High regards,
David |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:20 am | |
| Peter Birchwood and Graham Jay: thanks for the mini-history of American covert activity ! How about a big kiss for the help and dead Americans who went to pull your asses out of 2 World Wars? Ally...they always wanna kick the big dog's butt and for about 62 years,we have been that big dog. No one in America wants to see war,despite rhetoric on AOL message boards and other "outlets". True,America has a pro-Zionist policy,WHICH CAUSED THE TRAGEDY IN THE FIRST PLACE. One day,hopefully,we won't....Americans,like British folks are too busy trying to raise families and/or too lazy and complacent to do "something".............Besides,this is all situation ethics,knocking the US at this time. Israel provides nothing to the US but headaches. Yet they weren't the tribe that knocked down the WTC. THATS what the average American reacts to,Pete and Graham. Yep...we're the big dog. And don't forget you two: your own Winston Churchill said of Hitler in 1935 or 36 that he would ( Adolf,that is.) go down as one of Europe's greatest statesmen,had he not done one more thing to raise Germany from ruin. Whoops.......Mr.Parminster: you are a gentleman and as such,I apologize if it seemed I was knocking the English people. I'm not. We are very edgy over here because of the extra burden of this terrorist b.s. that effects every one of us and our kids. I don't want my kid taking anti-radiation pills( they've been handed out)....I don't want my daughter to live in fear of some sand eaters with a bomb,who are only enabled by comfy armchair liberals....Peter and Graham: No offense to either of you personally,but as Spengler said,"Peace is an ideal.war a fact..." We are always at war. Always. |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:40 am | |
Ally,
The people who can pass judgement on the last 50 years, would seem to me, to be every citizen in the world, after F. D. Roosevelt's inclusion of clause 3 in the Atlantic Charter in 1941.
Graham,
Your remark "But my point is we don't do it anymore,". At what point did we stop, I must have missed that. Are we sending baby milk salesman to Bagdad ?
Many people have expressed doubt about military involvement in Iraq, many of these people refuse to drive smaller cars, and many of these people supported direct action for reduced petrol prices in the UK. Is it purely coincedental that every conflict we've been involved in since WW2 has been countries with oil reserves or in the way of future pipelines?
These smaller countries have to play ball, as we do, to our real lords & masters. The new ballpark is the Caspian and at the moment Saddam is not playing.
Jim |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:41 am | |
| Dear Peter Birchwood...By the way,why should we 'remember" the Chilean victims of the CIA coup? Most American people were and still are not as knowledgeable on that anyway. Besides,if it gets a Commie( remember them?) out of South America,than by all means........ What are YOU doing to commemorate their loss? That goes for Graham,with the Indonesian victims of Sukarno.What did you guys do recently in their memory? Sit in a cafe with a lit candle? Nah....those references were just cheap shots. How about billions in aid to people worldwide ? How about helping rebuild people whos ass( the Nazi's and the Japanese ) we whomped on and some-other-folks-who-bit-off-more-than-they-could-chew-and-we-bailed-out? Face it,had England been able to maintain its Empire,kicked Hitler's ass without our help,maintained Pax Britannica,then youse wouldn't be so testy about the Big Dog rattling his sabre...I might be whining to you guys... |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:43 am | |
David,
Just so you know, I work here in London for an international bank, with an office in NY, and I lost people I knew in the WTC too.
Some of the posting on here today may have gone a little too far - my original post merely attempted to express the thought that the victims in NYC were only the first, and that others have paid a high price for 11/9. That was my opinion and I stand by it.
We appreciate your help in WWII (although despite what Hollywood would have us believe, you didn't win it on your own!) One of the things that war was fought for was freedom of expression.
G |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:48 am | |
| Mr.Jenkinson is absolutely right.........especially the valiant rescue of the penguins at Falkland Island. JUST KIDDING !JUST KIDDING !!!!! Mr.Jim is right.Oil rules.....David,you're right too...There were some very nice sentiments from Mr.Shelden and the other English gentleman,Mr. Parminster.....I'll stop. |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:49 am | |
Graham,
I saw your initial post--which you deleted--comparing war with Iraq with terrorism, on a day when most of us were remembering three thousand victims of terrorism. You didn't have a word for any of the people you lost. Not one.
I know all about freedom of expression. I also know a thing or two about respect.
Dave |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:52 am | |
Howard, lighten up!
Or should we talk about rejecting the Kyoto treaty, reneging on arms limitation treaties, or refusing to join the rest of world in spending a little extra on aid so that everyone in Africa can have clean water?
Come on, it's not worth getting rabid about |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:58 am | |
| Graham,I just get irritated when folks( Americans especially) knock their country........I've never seen anyone( well...maybe a few Black militants and writers) who jumped in a boat and split from these shores...Since you lightened up yourself by amending your original nasty and unnecessary post from yesterday,I'll knock it off.....Peace pal !!! |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:06 am | |
Mr Brown,
"The valiant rescue of penguins" was so important to the Reagan administration, that they gave H.M. Government the latest Sidewinders, removed from machines in service on the eastern seaboard.
Jim |
Author: Graham Jay
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:13 am | |
Peace!!
I deleted my post because I had expressed what I wanted to say badly, and I apologise to anyone who saw it as it was written. I can only blame a late night the night before. |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:16 am | |
| Fair enough, Graham. |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:24 am | |
Graham,
Now why would we want to form an empire? We are in the habit of tossing them off..yours included. That was no doubt the first sting to your ego. I also had the opportunity to read your initial post before you deleted it, it was intentionally inflammatory so don't be surprised when you get flamed. And as for the terrorism that we Americans have recently visited on the poor Taliban, and will soon be visiting on the Iraquis, blame yourself as well because there is your country right there standing shoulder to shoulder with us.
Warwick,
I have found most people English people to be nice, delightful, hospitable people when I have had occasion to speak with them. I have found the same to be true of Indians, Jamaicans, South Americans and even Americans. I don't hold a whole country responsible for the actions of a few of its more ignorant members and I despise it when I see it being done to me. When Blair supports an attack on Iraq, it is naturally against the wishes of his wise people who abhor such things. When Bush does the same thing, it is because all Americans are ignorant bloodthirsty savages. THat kind of propagandistic bullshit gets really old the 200th time you hear it. I have absolutely nothing but respect for the British people as a whole. I think the actions of Graham and Peter are inflexible, bigoted, and the actions of people who are consumed by their own self importance and overinflated ideas about the worth of their opinions. That is just my opinion however..and I have an overinflated view of it's worth.
Regards,
Ally |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:27 am | |
Graham,
I was typing my response as you posted your peace. I can agree to a cease-fire if you can.
Peace back at you,
Ally |
