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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
The Whitehall Mystery, et al.
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
The Whitehall Mystery, et al.
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 30 April 2002 - 04:45 pm |        | Hi, Monty:
I have been thinking recently that the audacity of the open display of the victims by Jack has some similarity to the audacity shown by the killer of the victim in the Whitehall mystery, in leaving the torso of the woman in the basement of New Scotland Yard, then under construction. Although the Whitehall mystery is usually discounted as a Ripper crime, this similarity of sheer temerity might provide some reason to think there might after all be a commonality of authorship of the crimes.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 07:37 am | | Hi Monty,
So far the most I can come up with for the 'Torso Murderer' is this:
He meets the women along the Thames.
The women he picks up are lonely, and distraught for one reason or another.
He's older than Jack, probably about 35 to 40.
Like Jack he MAY live with someone. However, the person is probably much older or sickly.(Perhaps taking care of a dying relative).
His home is either in Whitechapel, or very close to it.
He is very cold and calculated.(This displayed that he takes the time in cleaning the victims.)
Perhaps worked in a mortuary or maybe even worked as an artist, it's doubtful he was a surgeon, but maybe an assistant.
He woo's his victims for a while, taking them back to his home (or similar safe area), before he eventually kills them.
He doesn't have a hatred for women, but rather wishes to be close to them. However, for some reason or another he feels inadequate around them.(Or the sickly person, if any, he is taking care of may be his wife.)
Above Average Intelligence.
Without an official cause of death, it makes it difficult to profile this killer. These are just a few theories that I think fit him.
Sincerely,
Chris H. |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 07:38 am | | Hi Chris,
Im not so sure. I can see your point but my problem is that the actual Whitehall and Pinchin st murders were obviously committed in a different location to where they were found.
A different psyche to Jack ? If so, how different ??
This is my question.
Thanks,
Monty
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Author: Monty
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 07:44 am | | Chris,
Thanks,
Two murderers in the almost same area. Man, I wonder if these boys had a pint together ?
Any more ideas?
Monty
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Author: Chris Hintzen
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 09:36 am | | Hi Monty,
The 'Torso Murderer' was DEFINITELY killing his victims elsewhere, then dumping the bodies. He probably had a room in his own home, or at least a room in a safe place. Somewhere he could take the victims and do his work without fear of interuption.
The Torso Murderer and Jack have a similar psyche in the idea that they are both frustrated killers. However, the Torso Murderer is colder for he is willing to clean up the victims, AFTER he carves them up.(Although there is the possibilty that Jack didn't have the opportunity as the Torso Murderer had.) Also, I don't believe the Torso Murderer wanted his victims found, while there is the possibilty that Jack did.
Interesting idea about Jack and The Torso Murderer sharing a pint. It is a slim possibility that they ever met. However, if the Jack Accomplice theory is real, then perhaps the Torso Murderer and Jack worked together. Perhaps the Torso Murderer teaching Jack the tools of the trade?
Sincerely,
Chris H. |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 09:55 am | | Hi, Chris H:
You wrote "I don't believe the Torso Murderer wanted his victims found. . . ." Really? It would seem to me that just as the Cleveland Torso murderer left the parts of his victims in public or semi-public places, the 1888 killer did much the same thing, chucking the parts in Regent's Canal, placing the torso in the basement of New Scotland Yard, and under the railway arch in Pinchin Street. I think it is evident that wherever he left the body parts, discovery of those remains was part of the murderer's plan quite contrary to what you say.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Jeff D
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 11:19 am | | Hello all !
And especially to CTG. I do like your thinking here CTG! I believe myself that Jack the Rippers ultimate goal was the display of the horribly mutilated corpse rather than the mutilations themself. I mean, if the killer was trying to get his "so-called" jollies from performing these mutilations, he would have surely chosen a more secluded location and even considered the disposal of his victim rather than having to be concerned about time and the impending approach of footsteps.
And to all those posters here who know me from my contributions in the past, "it's nice to be back on the boards". I do seem to be out-of-step with most discussion threads but I am sure I will pick up the main gist of the arguments over time. I shall continue to read before putting my great size 9's in, me thinx!
I do hope all is well with everyone and its especially nice to see Stewart Evans still making the odd contribution and offering his extensive expertise. I do look forward to corresponding further over the coming weeks.
Kind Regards
Jeff D |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 11:49 am | | Hi, Jeff:
Nice to see you here again! Glad that you are back contributing. I agree with you that Mr. Jack appears to have got part of his jollies from the public display of his victims. I do believe that the thrill of the danger of leaving his victims to be found by passersby was both part of his signature and part of the satisfaction that he received from his crimes. In this sense, if Mary Jane Kelly was one of his victims, the fact that murder and mutilations were committed indoors at 13 Miller's Court, presumably for safety reasons, may have given him less satisfaction. In line with this reasoning, we might argue that the gross mutilations carried out on Kelly were partly to make up for the loss of the thrill of not being able to display her victim on a public street. By extension, though, the apparent turning of Mary Jane Kelly's disfigured face toward the window in 13 Miller's Court may have been done so that the person who discovered her, who turned out to be the rent collector, Thomas Bowyer, would receive the same shock that a person encountering one of his victims on the street would receive.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: The Viper
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 12:00 pm | | Before we get too carried away with this Torso Murderer business, there are some serious questions that need to be answered. The most important of them is this: how many of these so-called 'torso murders' were carried out by one man? For example, the Pinchin Street body was found with the arms attached. That wasn't so in the Whitehall or Rainham cases. Therefore, there must be a question mark straight away over their common authorship.
Superficially Chris George may have a point in that although the Whitehall and Pinchin Street bodies were hidden in dark and relatively inaccessible places, the person(s) hiding the corpses must surely have known that they'd be discovered in the end. Yet with the 'Rainham Mystery' and in the case of Elizabeth Jackson, disposal of the body parts in water might suggest that discovery was not intended.
The body and limbs were found over a variety of districts and I'm unsure why Chris H. (who also seems to favour one Torso Murderer) thinks that "His home is either in Whitechapel, or very close to it."
In the case of Pinchin Street (which did fall within the Whitechapel area), the police investigation leaned towards the idea that the body had brought into the district.
My own take - and this is pure speculation - is that Pinchin Street was probably a one-off killing which the miscreant wanted to have associated with the Whitechapel Murders. If the killer's intention was to fool the authorities into thinking this was a Jack The Ripper murder then he was unsuccessful. Following the inevitable initial linking of this case to the earlier crimes, support for the idea seems to have subsided. At the inquest Dr. Phillips was asked about the similarity of the torso's wounds to those found on Mary Kelly. This was a clear attempt by the Coroner to test the theory that the cases were linked. The doctor's response was to highlight a number of differences. Press reports also suggest that the local public didn't see this as a Ripper killing. The following is taken from the East London Advertiser of the 14th September 1889. "The proceedings created no public interest in the neighbourhood, only the jury, police, and reporters being present, and there was no assemblage of people around the door."
For those interested in reading more, the Casebook has quite a good library of information on the Pinchin Street body and on the Whitehall Mystery, but unfortunately very little on the Rainham and Battersea cases.
Regards, V. |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 01:28 pm | | Hi All,
First of all, let me answer Viper's question about how many murders I feel the 'Torso Murderer' was responsible for. I think there were three: Rainham, Whitehall, and Pinchin Street. There is a SMALL possibilty that Elizabeth Jackson was one, but I doubt this because she was chopped up into smaller pieces.
The reason why I say Pinchin is one(eventhough the killer did leave the arms) is because of the preciseness of the cuts. The incisions were rather similar in all three cases, and it would also explain how the Pinchin Street Murderer was so precise in his amputations as well as the decapitation.
Now the reasons why I say the killer didn't want the bodies found. When it comes to Whitehall, we have to remember, that the whole area was being demolished BEFORE the erection of the New Scottland Yard Buildings. The Whitehall body was probably dumped there MUCH earlier than when it was found.(Probably not long after the actual murder.) The killer believing the vault would be demolished as well, thus helping to bury the evidence could have dumped it there for that purpose. Or he could have wished to bury the body(As he did the leg that was found near it), but was disturbed, or just ran out of time. The Pinchin Street Torso is a little different. Pinchin Street was only a few blocks from the Thames. The killer could have been planning to dump the body there, much like the others. But heard noises, or thought he could not make it to the river without being seen, so he dumped it where it was found. If the killer was a 'Displayer' he would have left the bodies is places where they would have been found more easily.(Remember the spot where Pinchin Street was rather dark. Police had basically stepped over the 3 guys sleeping there without noticing them at first. Not to mention how dark it was in the Whitehall 'Vault'.) Also let's remember that all of these localities are close to the river, which is an excellent place to dispose of remains.
Also there is another characteristic that the 'Torso Murderer' doesn't have that is part of the basic 'Displayer' idealogy.(While Jack on the other hand does show some signs of it.) Basic displayers tend to enact scenes with their victims. Propping the bodies up, or setting them up after death, into something that either reminds them of something, or into a set-up that is comical or enjoyable by the murderer.(Jack sort of displays this, in the ways Mary Kelly, and Annie Chapman appear to be laid out.) The 'Torso Murderer' doesn't do this. The bodies are simply dumped. Not always out of sight, but there is the possibility that he was hoping to, and had to just dump and run.
Now to the reason why I think he lived in or near Whitechapel. Mainly it is because of Pinchin Street.(So if the Pinchin Street victim is out as one of his, then it does throw out most of the theory.) The Torso Murderer has to dodge police and people on the street to get there.(Remember people are suspicious of everyone at the time, due to the recent "Jack The Ripper" scare.) So he has to be familiar with the area to know how to get past without being seen, much less suspected. Also because he is moving bodies around to dump them, he will want to travel far enough from his home as not to cast suspicion on himself, however, not TOO far that he risks being caught.(Whether or not the Torso Murderer has a vehicle to transport the body parts is of inconsiquence, since he still has the possibility of being stopped and the vehicle being searched.)
Hope that clears up things. Any more questions?
Best Regards,
Chris H. |
Author: jennifer pegg
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 01:44 pm | | what other murders might have been torso murders?
for example what are the batersea park and chelsea embankment murders are these the same name for torso murders previosly mentioned?
i find all this torso stuff intesting, i recall that awful case form last yr where they found that boy in the thames and thought it was ritualistic (people from uk will know what i am talking about anyway).
jennifer |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 02 May 2002 - 07:39 am | | Chris,
Another question is how they were dumped ?
He/she/they would have had to transport them somehow, how ? What could pass through the streets without much notice ?
How, in the Whitehall case, could the body get over the fence that guarded the site ?
It seems to me to be an organised murder compared to Jacks disorganised. If thats the case then would it be reasonable to suppose that the victims were stalked ?
Did the murderer pick off tips from Jack or Vica versa ?
Plenty questions...I must trawl through Vipers suggestions.
Monty
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Author: Chris Hintzen
Thursday, 02 May 2002 - 10:25 am | | Hi Monty,
There are several ways the bodies could be conveyed. The most conspicious of course would be carrying the body in a satchel. This of course would arise A LOT of suspicion on the person, unless he lives VERY CLOSE to the dump sites. And only if he could duck and cover, while people are walking about the streets. This of course is HIGHLY unlikely, but still could be a possiblity. Another HIGHLY unlikely scenario is if the killer is using a coach or carriage.(One that would carry a passenger.) Unless it's a Police Carriage(Which I doubt Whitechapel had one, at least in the district of Pinchin Street), and of course this would mean we'd have to suspect either an officer, or someone who works for the police, which I don't believe our killer is either. The MOST likely conveyance would be a horse drawn cart.(Something like Diemschutz's.) There is a wharehouse nearby to Pinchin Street. Also there are many other businesses that would need a Horse Drawn cart to move about their wares or to get supplies. Plus this spot is only a couple of blocks from the Thames and a railway yard. So this would be the least suspicious mode of transport.
This could also explain how the murderer was able to get into Whitehall. If he moves supplies for the construction, then he would have access to bring things into and out of the yard. Also, I'm not sure how long construction had been taking place, but there is a possibilty that the body was dumped before they had a caretaker watching the area.(Unless of course contruction had been going on for a couple of months or so.) Also, the site is only guarded by ONE caretaker. So there is the possibility that something could have distracted him,(Say as the Dock Fires on the night of Nichols murder) and the killer took the advantage to get over the wall.(Wouldn't be that difficult to get over the wall with the Torso, I've seen Soldiers carrying much heavier equipment(not to mention fallen comrades) over similar surfaces at similar heights.)
I don't believe the victims are stalked. Although he may know them for a short time period. I think he meets them, when they are distraught or feeling lonely.(Remember none of the torso's were identified, so either NO ONE knew them, or NO ONE cared.) I feel that he possibly woo's them, making them feel safe(much as Jack probably did), and then takes them back to his 'safe place' to enact his murder. Now, with the Pinchin Street Torso there are numerous bruises about the body. The doctors believed these were done prior to the murder. It is possible that the murderer in a fit of rage beat the woman, however, if Pinchin is linked to Whitehall and Rainham, there is no evidence of the killer damaging the victim through beatings in the other two. So perhaps the killer met the victim, after she was beaten. Perhaps by a husband or paramour? (Neither of them would come forth of course, since they had been beating the woman.) The Pinchin victim's hands were well formed, so she wasn't a person who used the workhouses(which as far as I've seen all the prostitutesin Whitechapel had at one time used them.), so I believe that she wasn't a prostitute, or worked in one of the more rugged industries. She could possibly have been a seamstress(Although some doctors of the time may have noticed the typical small knicks from working as one), or maybe a domestic servant. Or there is the SLIM possibilty that she did not work at all, and was a Housewife, but if she is from Whitechapel this is HIGHLY unlikely.
The only way Jack learning from The Torso Murderer, or vice versa, would mean they would have to know each other, or witnessed each others work. Now there is a possibility of this, but it is a SLIM one at best. Let's remember, that even the police nor the press knew exactly how either of the killers' methods were.
Sincerely,
Chris H. |
Author: Monty
Friday, 03 May 2002 - 08:11 am | | Chris,
Thanks for your input..it helped alot.
I shall reply next week if thats ok ?
Monty
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Author: Monty
Tuesday, 07 May 2002 - 07:48 am | | Chris,
Took on what you said.
RE the tips off each other. Would it be possible to happen via the press ?? An out-doing of each other ?
Would they be aware of each others crimes or just sticking to their own agendas ?
Monty
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Author: Chris Hintzen
Tuesday, 07 May 2002 - 01:29 pm | | Hi Monty,
Interesting Questions.
The only problem with the idea about these two killers out-doing one another is the fact that there wasn't another Torso Murder until at least six months (If you count Elizabeth Jackson as a 'Torso Victim' or 9 if you count Pinchin Street.) after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly. So if Jack was trying to compete with the 'Torso Murderer' then Mr. Torso was unimpressed.
Also since Jack waited until WELL after The Whitehall Mystery quieted down in the papers before he killed his next victim, it seems like he wasn't a competitive type either.
So I don't think they were trying to out do one another with their killings.
Now I'm sure they probably read about one another in the papers. It seems to me that Jack either Loved or Hated his press. Since he seemed to wait until the stories about the inquests and police theories began to died down before he killed again.(I do wonder whether or not Jack was just curiously watching how close they were getting to him?) Now one of the bodies(I can't remember if it was Whitehall or Pinchin Street) of the Torso Victims was partially wrapped in Newspaper, so it looks like the killer at least had them lying around.
So they both may have just watched the papers to see when 'the heat' died down from the bodies being found. Or they may have enjoyed reading about each others exploits. Or then again they may have just liked reading the paper once in a while.
However, I don't feel like it changed their original agendas. The most it did was slow them down as they waited for the public reaction to slow a little before they commited their next murder.
Sincerely,
Chris H. |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 08 May 2002 - 07:39 am | | Chris,
I agree. Thanks again.
I find it staggering that we have two murderers working at the same time, in similar areas with awful results.
It perhaps helps us understand the panic within the establishment these murders caused.
As Mr Wilde may have stated..."having one murderer on the prowl is unfortunate...but two.."
Monty
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Author: Dan Norder
Sunday, 01 December 2002 - 10:45 pm | | I have three assorted thoughts about the torso murders I thought I'd share:
1) While I do think killers can change MOs and don't immediately rule these killings out as ripper deaths, the timing and the geography just don't seem to fit together with the ripper murders to make one killer.
2) When I think about body parts being separated in this way, I tend to believe it was done more for utility in transporting the bodies and/or to make identification difficult. These seem more like practical concerns than someone getting his kicks. (Which is not to say someone didn't get his jollies and then get all sensible in deciding how to cover it up.) It almost makes me wonder if it wasn't organized crime disposing of some bodies -- but the fact that they were all female (no male torsos were found at any point, were they?) makes this seem less likely to me.
3) Here's a wild one... considering that some parts ended up in the Thames and the others may have been headed that way, it makes me think of the recent torso of the unknown boy (nicknamed Adam by the London police) found floating in the Thames. Officials seem convinced that death was related to West African black magic, so why not the older torso murders? Then, to answer my own question, the reasons they think this are largely different from the old torso killings -- the age of the victim, color of his skin, and color of the shorts he was wearing all being prime considerations.
So this all adds up to a big shrug on my part, but I thought I'd toss the ideas, such that they are, out there.
Dan |
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