|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
THE LOCK ON MARY KELLYS DOOR
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
THE LOCK ON MARY KELLYS DOOR
Author: Leanne Perry
Sunday, 01 July 2001 - 05:12 am |        | G'day everyone,
I just read Ivor's post of June 28 at 2:18pm and would like to point out some errors:
Joseph Barnett moved out of 13 Miller Court because Kelly was inviting friends to share the tiny room with them and he objected: "I told her that I would come back if she (Mrs. Harvey) would go and live somewhere else."
Harvey stayed with Kelly from 30 October to 6 November and Barnett was still visiting Kelly every day. As soon as Harvey got her own place, he expected to be asked back, but Kelly either told him the relationship was over, or asked for more time to decide.
As Ivor suggests, the killer may have been biding his time to kill Kelly, hence the October wait. If so, he must have been fully aware of Barnetts habits of just visiting and knew that he was not asked back and would not return later the night of his last visit.
Leanne! |
Author: Harry Mann
Sunday, 01 July 2001 - 05:59 am | | Rick,
The scenario you paint didn't happen,and whether it was luck or planning we'll never know.The fact is he did get away unobserved,and I think it would be fair to say that before he left he would have thought carefully about his departure and the dangers he faced.
There were risks associated with every murder he commited,but that he was so successfull cannot ,in my opinion be put down to pure luck.
Consider one aspect of the case.Why were the killings carried out in the early hours of the morning?.One might think that the best time and place to be certain of finding the kind of person he sought was in the evening hours before midnight at one of the numerous pubs they patronised.Was it because he himself was so well known at these establishments?.
If his crimes weren't down to precise planning,at least entertain the idea that he put a lot of carefull thought into his actions.His life also was at stake.The who, the where, the when and how,must have figured prominently in his calculations
Who were to be the victims,where could he locate them,when was the best time to seek them,and how best to overpower and prevent their crying out.
Quite a lot to consider,yet he did it so successfully,and bear in mind that at times he would have to plan on the move and adapt to situations as they presented themselves.What did he have to aid him?.A perceptive and clear mind,a good sense of sight and sound,and a great knowledge of the territory he was operating in.At least that is my opinion.
Regards,
Harry Mann. |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 01 July 2001 - 08:07 pm | | Harry, I thought I was agreeing with you! I do find myself agreeing with you, whether you think so or not. Yes, Jack was a thoughtful man, I didn't mean he trusted to luck alone, but he was lucky in his planning,--you surely have to admit?.
The scenario I painted, (as you said) I know it didn't happen,-- but it could have, he had NO way of making sure it didn't happen!!-- unless he knew a safer way out of Millers Court. The same as you, Harry, I think he was known and knew his way around, he couldn't afford to be seen after leaving Mary's room. BUT, this was the farthest thing from his mind while he was making his way TO Mary's room,--thats where his good luck came to the fore!. His planned visiting time,-3:45-4:0 am, held up okay, nobody saw him, BUT, his leaving time wasn't planned, he didn't know that it would be faultless,-- BUT HIS GOOD LUCK HELD.
Nichols murder was pretty safe for him, it was his first--(or was it his second?) he was surrounded by streets, he could pretty well pick which way to retreat from the scene, and it was an ideal time, as you would say Harry, and the police were not aware,--(if that could make any difference). Chapman's death-scene, you couldn't call that planning could you?. Only one way out,down the entry, if discovered, or over the back-garden fences, and be run down like a rabbit, thats if the police were aware. He was lucky again, he got out without any hassle, But he didn't KNOW he wouldnt be spotted, he couldn't plan for that!-- It was a bad time of morning.
Eddowes murder was the cleverest, that was, I would say due to his professional expertise with a gutting knife,-- even then, due to haste, he cut into the large intestine, and made a mess of the body, and himself very likely. Elisabeth Stride I can't regard as a Ripper killing, right or wrong I think of that one as Michael Kidney's
Rick. |
Author: Harry Mann
Monday, 02 July 2001 - 07:02 am | | Rick,
Quite right,nothing was down to all planning or all luck,and I do agree on a lot of what you say.
Correct me if I am wrong,but I believe you and I are of an age and come from areas of England,that may have closely resembled the Whitechapel of 1888.
I remember the gas lit narrow warrens of streets,bisected by the narrower unlit alleys that connected them.Of the rows and rows of terraced housing, the occasional court with the narrow arched entryway,and of course the numerous public houses.
As to what the Ripper may have done if faced with the scenario you depicted,I can think of three tried and tested ways which an enterprising person,and he was that,might do.
Firstly the old dodge of bending down to fiddle with a shoelace,collar up hat pulled low and head well down.Secondly a supposedly fit of coughing,with hand or hankerchief over the face,and hat,collar,and face ditto.Thirdly,and here I appologise if the laguage seems course,face the wall,one hand on the wall head well down and pretend to have a piss.Remember there is no suspicion of any wrongdoing having occured,and both persons would pass in a matter of seconds.
I agree on the Nicholls killing.As long as Bucks row was devoid of witnesses he was safe.Same applies to Mitre square,and in relation to Stride and Tabran I have given my opinion in previous posts.
Chapman's killing shows the risks he was prepared to take,and the ability to think a situation out quickly and calmly.Why the backyard?.In my opinion it was simply the location that best fitted the circumstances.It was nearing daybreak,he had a victim,the lust to kill was strong and delay meant the likelyhood of people being up and about.He could not afford the time or exposure in finding a more suitable spot.
Luck certainly played a part,nobody interupted his work,and he was away before the body was discovered.
It is only my opinion,but I imagine he must have had confidence in his knowledge of the area he worked,of the people who inhabited that area,and the conditions that prevailed that morning.In fact,a resident of Whitechapel itself.
Regards,
H.Mann. |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 03 July 2001 - 01:58 pm | | Harry, you got me dead to rights,- South Shropshire coal mining village, January 1932.
Only a small village in the thirties, but houses the same design as Whitechapel. Unbroken rows of terraced houses with the occasional arched entry through to the rear. The entries were feared by us kids when it was dark, but great places to shout in in daylight, and get big ringing echoes.
Street light was electric, but quite dim, no light at all in the back-streets, you really needed a flash-light. Houses were back to back, with a narrow black-ash road full of rain gulleys
running between. There was a small brick back-yard surrounded by steel railings to each house, with a wash-house adjoining the house, and an ashtip and lavatory down at the bottom next to the road.
The lavatory was a pan type, and was emptied once a week or so. The men(two) who came round to empty the looes seemed to come in the dead of night. They came up the black ash road with a large tank on cart-wheels pulled by one horse. The tank was lit, by I think, two flares, the men wore hoods, and I can't be sure that the horse didn't wear a hood. Now and again you would get a glimpse of an evil looking face,(to us kids),in the torch-light. Parents in those days used these night-silage workers as a threat to their kids to behave, "or the nightsilers will get you!.
This is the sort of place I would think JtRs trophies would end up in, because I think they were taken to create extra fear, I think only one organ was perhaps kept,-- Kelly's heart.
Yes Harry, your three excuses for being there in the entry,if it had happened that way,quite amusing but they would have worked, a witness could only say they saw someone--not who!
Will we be meeting Harry, in September?--I hope so.
Best Regards, Rick |
Author: Harry Mann
Wednesday, 04 July 2001 - 07:11 am | | Rick,
I understand and agree with everything you say,and I am sure that the experience of living in the thirties does help somewhat.After all,things were very slow to change,and life then as it was in the 1880's had many similarities.
For instance,congested as living conditions were,each persons business was known to many.The fact that the key was missing,that the window offered a means of reaching the lock on the inside,that Kelly and Barnett had separated,would hardly be well kept secrets.
It is interesting that there is a lack of information concerning the named suspects,and that is how they gained entry to Kelly'room.Did she meet them on the streets and take one to her room.Was Hutchinson truthful in saying so?.How else would Tumblety,Druitt,Cohen and the numerous others find their way there?.Did any of them know her enough to go to the door and say,"It's me(name)let me in.Anyone any ideas?.
Rick,I had thought I would be able to visit England this year,but due to my wife's health problems,I am unlikely to do so.If conditions improve,Mid to late August might be possible.
Regards,
H.Mann. |
Author: neil tennant
Thursday, 05 July 2001 - 05:46 pm | | it is a fact that "jtr" did kill his victims
for money.and he was paid by a high ranking
policeman his name "sgt frank burnside" who
was working out of the sunhill police station at the time please check the new editon of the a-z |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Thursday, 05 July 2001 - 06:48 pm | | Dear Mr.Tennant,
I think Your theory and musical ideas are,at best feeble.However somebody at Sunhill could have been involved.It's very odd that the murders ceased after the demise of "Tosh"Lines.
Maybe you could resolve the whole issue,over a pint down"Ringers" with Mr. Almond!
Evenin'all
DCI Mick Lyden |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Friday, 06 July 2001 - 03:59 am | | Tosh lines indeed. When that bent copper was on the run after causing the death of his colleague (filmed at Centre Court shopping centre in Wimbledon), my daughter happened to be there with a mate, and they were invited by the oily charmer to be extras. So she obviously came face to face with the real 'Jack' - Bill in disguise. Her book comes out shortly: Tennants Extra - Good for Ripper-spotting.
Have a great weekend all.
Good luck Tim Henman! (Please God, don't let it rain.)
Love,
Caz |
Author: Julian Rosenthal
Tuesday, 10 July 2001 - 02:00 am | | G'day Neil, Arfa, Caz, everyone.
Neil, I'd love to know where this 'fact' came from that Jack was paid to kill his victims. Could you please elaborate?
Caz, thank god the tennis is over. We've had nothing but tennis, slow motion replays of tennis, explanations into the grunting sounds tennis players make when they serve, historical moments in tennis, profiles on tennis greats etc. and yet we get to see bugger all of the cricket!
What is the world coming to? Maybe one day in the near future we'll see elections being contested by political contenders playing tennis.
Hope all is well with you all.
Love
Jules |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 10 July 2001 - 04:48 am | | Hi Jules,
I think Neil, the pet shop boy, was 'avin' a larf wiv us - Sunhill is the home of 'The Bill', a British police soap, often filmed in my neck of the woods. (Perhaps it should be Sunlight soap.) If he elaborates, it's highly likely you'll end up more confused than ever, and be begging for the tennis to come back. 
Well, the rains came and the Brits lost - all in perfect accord with our great summer traditions, so Goran is in his heaven and all is right with the world. Hope all is well with you too, Jules.
Lots of love, as always,
Caz |
|
|
|
|
