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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
How are we sure that all the victims were the work of one man?
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
How are we sure that all the victims were the work of one man?
Author: Michael B. Bruneio
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 09:45 am |        | Dear Leanne,
I am a first-time contributor to this board, so I shall be brief.
The dates of the murders tell us quite a bit about JTR. First, all the murders were committed on either weekends or Bank Holidays. This suggests a man employed in regular work. The time these murders were committed also suggest that he was single and/or lived alone.
I believe he had some medical knowledge. He at least knew the area intimately well if not actually lived in the vicinity. I also do not put much credence in the F.B.I.'s Psych Profile; for all their bluster, the F.B.I. has never apprehended a single serial killer. They don't mention this simple fact when they give press releases.
I firmly believe Martha Tabram should be included with the canonical victims. I also feel Liz Stride's murderer was interrupted by Diemschutz, and in fact was JTR.
That's about it as far as this topic goes. Thanks for reading! |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 12:44 pm | | Hi All,
The passages from the last few posts which stick in my mind and make a whole lot of sense are these:
Viper wrote:
'...the fewer crimes we attribute to one man, the more we have to put down to other people.'
'What we are left with then is one multiple killer and a whole host of individual murderers.'
'...whilst violent assault may have been commonplace in the Whitechapel area, the populace was not basically murderous.'
'...it means that in the case of 95 days we have to account additionally for three other murders; all unsolved cases; all prostitutes; all murdered in a small geographical area; all by the knife and all with throat wounds.'
I can understand why many of us have our own pet non-ripper victims among Tabram, Stride and Kelly. But look at the difficulties when we seriously start to think about dismissing all three.
As Viper points out, we are faced with three particularly violent non-serial killings that are not easy to explain, however we view the murder statistics.
Firstly we would have to accept that there were three non-serial murders between August 6th and November 9th, 1888, averaging one a month, and neatly sandwiching the three remaining linked cases.
It does seem strange if three remorseless killers surfaced from Viper’s basically non-murderous populace, the first just in time to provide the overture for Jack, the second an unsolicited duet with Eddowes, and the third a grand finale that Jack himself would have been proud of.
By the time Nichols, the first canonical victim, was murdered, the press apparently didn’t need statistics to broadcast their view that something way outside the norm was going on. Most of us accept that the press were wrong to link Smith, Tabram and Nichols to the same killer, but that they were spot on, if premature, with their conclusion that a serial killer was out there, ready and waiting to strike again. How unusual is it for a first murder to be recognised and publicly proclaimed to be part of a series, even before the killer himself knows if he can pull off a second, never mind third or fourth?
Tabram, Stride and Kelly all met unusually violent deaths if we consider three separate killers were responsible. We have to assume each had a definite motive (revenge, lack of domestic bliss, jealousy?). Each went equipped with a suitable weapon. Each killed and left the victim where she lay, to be quickly discovered. But each case remained unsolved, unusual if the killers knew their victims well, even more so if they were partners.
Each killer would have needed to be as smart or as lucky as JtR regarding the lack of evidence. Or did the fact that these deaths were being linked to JtR by the press and various authorities prevent them from being investigated properly in an individual light?
Incidentally, talking of statistics, they are currently speculating on how many murders Dr. Shipman may have committed over the years, taking into account that serial killers tend to begin a lot younger. The media, calling him Dr.Jeckyll of Hyde, are talking in terms of up to 1000. I gather that two prison warders have been excused duties involving him because they may have relatives who were among his victims. As one person commented, if this was an episode of Inspector Morse, it would be too fanciful for words.
Caz |
Author: Karoline L
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 02:18 pm | | Caz,
i think that's a brilliant post.
I guess the likelihood of Tabram, stride etc being non-ripper victims all hinges on the general frequency of knife-murders in the are. Does anyone know how reliable those quoted statistics are?
Apologies for any strange spelling, but I've got this awful virus and am full of flu-like aches and pains and can't be bothered to check this
Karoline |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 02:49 pm | | Caz -
Quite right about the press, but it was a combination of the superficial similarities beteen Tabram and Nichols (both prostitutes, both stabbed repeatedly, no clues to be found) as well as their congruence in time that led to the conclusion that Nichols' murder was the second / third in a series, and if it happened before, it was likely to happen again.
It is interesting, when looking over the early news stories concerning Nichols' death, how vague and ethereal Emma Smith becomes. Nichols is usually referred to as the "third," but Smith is almost never named, the date of her assualt flitting from April back to Christmas 1887, and the weapon that finished her off described as usually a spike, but sometimes a sword-stick. It seems as though the bestial assault on Smith was remembered, but no-one could be bothered to go back and look over the particulars; she was murdered in "Whitechapel," her killer was never caught, so she must be part of the emerging pattern.
Even the "Daily Telegraph" does this sort of thing, which I find peculiar. It strikes me as a minor mystery that no-one seemed to be able to go back and find out the truth about Smith (even after MJKs murder, this remained true; she was spoken of as the "seventh" victim).
I see the point you're making, however, and would agree with you, certainly in regards to Tabram and Kelly. However (and there are always howevers), we still have the Torso killings to decipher, and I am of the opinion these were not the work of the Ripper.
I still argue against Stride, simply because of the immediate circumstances prior to her death. I have said - and will continue to say - that if Stride was attacked by the Ripper, then for once he showed an almost insane lack of concern for privacy, quiet and safety. The assualt was simply too blatant to match the MO that had been established by September 30. I have a much easier time believing that Kidney might have killed her than the Ripper.
I seem to be posting rather frequently this week; do let me know when I've bored you enough, and I'll go back to preparing for the US Conference!
Hope you feel better soon, Karoline; good to have you back on the boards.
CMD |
Author: Thomas Ind
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 03:50 pm | | I'm fascinated to read the opnions of all here that the vast majority of the 9 were in fact ripper victims.
I've always included Tabram and thought that that was pretty controversial (clearly not). Furthermore, I find including Tabram and not Millwood difficult (clearly this is not controversial either).
So who is going to argue for Pinchin street. Four of the cannonical victims had neck incisions down to the bone. Behaps jack was looking for a head for a trophy to add to his uterii, heart and kidney (assuming he didn't give his kidney to Lusk.)
He quietened down after MJK due to all the excitement as did the yorkshire ripper for a period(- must hurry as the YR program is on in few minutes).
Then when things were settled again he did his most vile murder away from Whitechapel (as the YR did his last away from the Leeds red light district). Finally he got his head as a trophy.
Now don't get me wrong I am only trying to be controversial here but there is as good an argument for Pinchin street one year later as there is for Ada Wilson which doesn't sound like a JTR attack to me. |
Author: Bob Hinton
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 03:53 pm | | Dear All,
I'm putting this here as Dr Shipman has previously been mentioned on this site.
A psychiatrist gave a brief interview yesterday and mentioned the fact that Shipmans mother had died of cancer when he was 16, and he wondered if this traumatic event might have played some part in his future actions.
By a strange coincidence George Hutchinsons mother died of cancer of the womb when he was 16!
all the best
Bob Hinton |
Author: Thomas Ind
Wednesday, 02 February 2000 - 06:43 pm | | I know this has nothing to do with Hutchinson but relationships with Shipman are difficult.
Doctors and serial killers - the only 2 I can think of now are Crippen and Shipman but I'm sure there are more. It is a long time since I read about the first (which I probably can't spell) but didn't he use some kind of intricately designed rooms and MO. Shipman used opiates. Surely now with our increased experience with doctors as serial killers we can say it is more usual for doctors to utilise intricate methods rather than simple buthcery. Does anyone know other cases of doctors (practicing not quacks) who were serial killers but who do not fit this trend of 2.
Finally, on Shipman's case. It is frightening to think that all of us at work believe that if he didn't forge the will he would have never been caught. (I'm sure Stephen will have something to say about forged wills!). All of my colleagues at work think that the worst thing that would have happened to him was a slap on the wrist from the GMC. He would have said that he had an elderly group of patients accounting for his death rate and got off scot free without anyone knowing that the cases were murders. Only the alteration of the medical records would have caused concern and that would have resulted in a short suspension. No one would have believed they were murders. I know it's probably not even relevant to the board but it does make you think. You can sign 10 times more death certificates than your colleagues, undertakers can know about it for years and still nothing happens. I can't tell you how pleased that I am not a single handed GP. I work in a multidisciplinary team and the more I think about it the more I think about a quote I once had the nerve to state 'medical independance is the last refuge of the medically incompetent'. Shipman proves it can be more than this. |
Author: David M. Radka
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 01:27 am | | Top post, CAZ!
David |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 05:49 am | | Hi All,
Thanks David, open wide and I'll pour a few golden droplets of Glenlivet down your cake hole.
Karoline, you sound like you could do with some too. Hope you feel better soon. I'm off to the dentist later with wisdom tooth probs (yeah, I've finally got one and don't I know it, ouch!), so the highland honey has helped me too.
Tom wrote:
'...Shipman's case. It is frightening to think that all of us at work believe that if he didn't forge the will he would have never been caught.'
It has been said about Shipman that he must have got a thrill out of the fear of being caught. He even killed half a dozen in his surgery, basically healthy women coming in for repeat prescriptions etc. He even had his own double event, two in one day. And it does seem unbelieveable that a badly typed will, easily shown to be forged, would prove to be his undoing. It was not as if his motive had ever previously been cashing in on the deaths. Did he finally wonder at the point of wielding such power over people's lives if no one would ever know what he'd achieved?
CMD wrote:
'if Stride was attacked by the Ripper, then for once he showed an almost insane lack of concern for privacy, quiet and safety.'
A similar insane lack of concern was certainly shown by Shipman killing in a busy surgery and ineptly forging a victim's will.
Even if Stride was already dead and her killer gone before Diemschutz plus pony arrived, JtR may have realised he had made an error of judgement and that the scene was just too hot to stay around mutilating. It would make absolute sense that his frustration and disappointment would lead him to kill again before the night was out. But oh, the elation he would have felt on leaving Eddowes.
Caz |
Author: Ashling
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 07:05 am | | Hi all!
THOMAS: Crippen wasn't a serial killer ... He only killed one person - he poisoned his wife. Your comment - "but didn't he use some kind of intricately designed rooms and MO."- brings to mind Herman Mudgett aka H. H. Holmes, executed in Chicago in 1896. Robert Bloch, author of Night of the Ripper and Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper, wrote a fictionalized account of Holmes' Castle of Horror - American Gothic. Harold Schechter's Depraved is an excellent non-fiction view of Holmes' series of crimes, including possibly as many as 200 murders. Holmes worked as a pharmacist, not as a doctor.
There's an awfully long list of these guys, hard to keep them straight. If Holmes isn't who you were thinking of, perhaps Bob Hinton can help - when it comes to compiling a Who's Who of SKs, Bob is one of our most knowledgeable posters.
Best regards,
Janice |
Author: Karoline L
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 07:28 am | | Hello CMD, Caz and all,
I think the comparisons with UK's newest serial-killer and the discussions about MO are very interesting and relevant, but I don't think they are central to the question of whether one man killed all those women.
It seems to me it all hinges on the figures for murders in the area in other years.
If it's true that murders of prostitutes were usually very rare, then the laws of chance would seem to make it almost impossible that three or more different maniacs would all decide to murder prostitutes within this one area in a single twelve-month period. It would almost have to be either a single individual and/or a bizarre series of copycats. And I don't think the minor differences in MO can really be used to refute this.
But if murderous attacks on prostitutes were actually quite common, then the idea that 'the ripper' was little more than a string of coincidences does make some sense.
The murder statistics for the area are the only way of answering this question. Does anyone know - have they been properly researched and are they reliable?
By the way, re. 'doctors who kill', there was a GP in the UK charged with serial-murders (I think some time in the forties or fifties) who was brought to trial but got off. I can't remember the man's name, but when I read the account of his trial, I was struck by the thought that the medical establishment seemed to have united to save his reputation and their own. I was not convinced of his innocence.
Does anyone know the case I'm talking about? Or have I dreamed it up out of my virus-induced confusion?
Not sure about Glenlivet. But brandy is welcome. Anyone want to send me some, I won't complain |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 09:47 am | | Hi Karoline,
I agree we won't get much further with this until we know how common it really was for these street women to be attacked, and the usual nature of the assaults. As CMD said, Emma Smith's death for example received scant attention until four months later when Martha Tabram was found. The fact that both were killed on Bank Holiday Mondays probably struck a chord if four months was otherwise an unremarkable gap between night time assaults on women in general.
Was your doc one John Bodkin Adams? He was widely believed to have killed 8 or 9 of his patients during 35 years as a medical practitioner. Several died in the 1950s leaving him valuable legacies.
Some thought he murdered for greed, others believed he merely practised euthanasia. So I am unsure if he would really fit the definition of a serial killer, whose primary motive would appear to be killing for control, or just because they can, and once started can't stop.
He was acquitted but done for forging prescriptions and struck off the Medical Register, but continued to treat patients privately in Eastbourne. In 1961 he was returned to the Medical Register and resumed his practice.
He died in Eastbourne when he was 84.
God, in a place like Eastbourne he could have easily been another Shipman if he hadn't been seen to benefit from the deaths. It was common gossip there that he carried a supply of blank will forms on his rounds. Blimey, if this is the one you mean, Karoline, I agree about not being convinced of his innocence.
Believe it or not, my dentist has a cancellation tomorrow and can fit me in at 2.30 (tooth-hurty, I kid you not!)
So it's back to the alcohol poultice tonight.
Caz |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 12:18 pm | | You can find the Bodkin case in "The Mammoth Book of Unsolved Crimes" (ISBN 0-7867-0588-4).
If anyone does follow Karoline's suggestion and look over the murder statistics for prostitutes in - say - the years 1878-1888, I would be very interested in seeing them, as they would fit in with a project I am working on. Unfortunately, I have at the moment neither the time nor the intelligence to search for such records (though I might do it if anyone knows how to go about it).
Never had a drop of brandy in my life. I usually find a chilled bottle of Veuve Cliquot more than adequate for any illness, however.
N.B - I wonder what happened to Jason? Have we frightened him off? |
Author: Christopher T. George
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 01:02 pm | | Hi, Janice:
You mean Dr. Crippen only killed ONE poison??? :-) This though goes to show how the popular image or "myth" of Crippen much as the myth of Jack the Ripper has grown much larger that the reality. I remember one time when Michael Caine aka Inspector Frederick George Abberline was interviewed on a US TV talk show and he was asked about how many women he had dated. Caine remarked that when the news media showed all the photos of the actresses he had dated, "It makes me seem like Dr. Crippen."
Chris George, Editor
Ripper Notes
Casebook Productions, Inc.
Organizer, "Jack the Ripper: A Century of Myth"
Park Ridge Marriott, Park Ridge, NJ, April 8-9, 2000
conference@casebook-productions.org
http://www.casebook-productions.org/conference.htm |
Author: Bob Hinton
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 02:35 pm | | Dear All,
As well as H H Holmes, another murderous doctor with a penchant for elaborate murder rooms was Dr Petiot who confessed to murdering 63 people in France during the war. Like most murderous Doctors (Ruxton for example) when confronted he used bluster and bombast to try and talk his way out of it. It didn't do him much good and he was beheaded on May 26 1946.
Crippen is an interesting case. It is fairly certain that he killed his wife but whether or not he murdered her is open to question. Marshall Hall always said that if he had been given the brief he could have saved him.
Inspector Dew (he of JTR fame) pursued Crippen across the Atlantic and arrested him in Canada. (to be accurate he was arrested by the Canadian authorities who handed him straight over)
During the trip back he got to know and like Crippen very much, a feeling echoed by the general public as the trial wore on. Dew was sure his death sentence would be commuted.
After Crippen was executed, Dew resigned from the police force.
all the best
Bob Hinton
PS Don't lets forget Dr Palmer 'The Rugeley Poisoner' who possibly did away with 14 people for gain, including his wife, brother and various children, a truly evil man. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 03:15 pm | | Bob
How many SK doctors do you know and what proportion of them used violent methods for their MO?
I know this is completely out of thread but rlevant to previous posts |
Author: NickDanger
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 09:42 pm | | Hi all,
On the subject of doctors who kill, there is a recent case of a Dr. Michael Swango who apparently went from hospital to hospital murdering patients in the US. I believe that he was 'asked' to leave several hospitals but continued to be able to join other hospital staffs. When things got too hot in the US, he went to an African country and continued murdering patients there. If memory serves me he was arrested for falsifying data on his application and is currently incarcerated awaiting the outcome of the murder investigations.
Best regards,
Nick |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 09:43 pm | | Bob -
I have no doubt this question will inevitably stamp me as a fool, but -
"[Crippen] killed his wife, but whether or not he murdered her is open to question."
What is the difference?
Other murderous doctors:
Dr J Milton Bowers, at least two and possibly three people, 1885
Dr Robert Buchanan, murdered his wife 1892
Dr Henry William Clark, murdered his lover's husband, 1911
Dr Robert Clements, murdered 3 wives and then killed himself, 1947
. . .well, you get the idea. Anyone wanting to read more of this can check out Martin Fido's "The Chronicle of Crime," which has just been released in a new version in the US. The one I am using is ISBN 0-88184-820-4.
And people wonder why we here in the US don't want a national health service. :-) |
Author: Diana Louise Comer
Thursday, 03 February 2000 - 10:21 pm | | Good Grief!
I'll never trust another Dr. Imagine a homicidal podiatrist -- a ripperesque ear nose and throat man -- aargh! Drs Villon and Ind, keep your distance! |
Author: Christopher T. George
Friday, 04 February 2000 - 01:06 am | | Hi, Diana:
Some of these docs had a bedside manner that is not to be believed. Did anyone mention Dr. Shepard among the allegedly murderous docs? Just say aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr. :-)
Chris George |
Author: Bob Hinton
Friday, 04 February 2000 - 04:23 am | | Dear CMD,
In Crippens case there is a possibility that he killed her by accident.
Tom Ind
The only two doctors (speaking off the top of my head and restricting it to British cases) who used violent physical methods of murder were Buck Ruxton and another whose name escapes me for the moment. Ruxton battered and strangled his common law wife and their maid, Mary Rogerson and then dismembered the bodies in a bath.
The other chap (who I believe was a dentist) murdered his maid and also dismembered her body (this was fairly recently, in the last ten years) He also dismembered her body, hiding some of it under the floor boards and using other bits of flesh as fertiliser for his indoor house plants. He, like Ruxton, was also an Indian.
Mainly Doctors who kill either use poison, or some form remote killing like a murder room. Its almost as if they are watching laboratory animals being killed.
all the best
Bob Hinton |
Author: Leanne Perry
Friday, 04 February 2000 - 07:48 am | | G'day Everyone,
CMD About those statistics that I mentioned, in an earlier post: Could you please remind me where and when in the past, we discussed Joseph Loane's statistical report and compared it to Paleys?
You say: 'Paley tends to leave the impression that 1888 was a freak year'.
Ignoring Paleys opinion, there's a photograph of the actual report in his book, titled: 'Death Statistics For Whitechapel for 1887'.
Elsewhere in his book, Paley mentions: 'According to statistics compiled in the 'Annual Report on the Sanitary Conditions of Whitechapel' by Joseph Loane, the Medical Officer for Health, there were seventy-one violent deaths in the district in 1887, of which sixty-nine were 'accidental'....The remaining two deaths were classified as suicides, one by drowning, the other a poisoning.
Checking the photo of the document, this is accurate. Under 'Accidental': there is
'17 Fractures'
'0 Gunshot wounds'
'0 Cut, Stab'
'11 Burn, Scold'
'0 Poison'
'4 Drowning'
'24 Suffocaton'
'3 Otherwise'
'0 Murder, Manslaughter'
Under 'Suicide':
'0 Gunshot wounds'
'0 Cut, Stab'
'1 Poison'
'1 Drowning'
'0 Hanging'
'0 Otherwise'
He gives the source for this document as:
'Tower Hamlets Library'...London I guess!
LEA! |
Author: Leanne Perry
Friday, 04 February 2000 - 07:54 am | |  |
Author: Leanne Perry
Friday, 04 February 2000 - 08:05 am | | | |
Author: alex chisholm
Friday, 04 February 2000 - 04:37 pm | | Dear All
I’m sorry pressing commitments have prevented me from engaging with this debate, but the points raised are deserving of fuller response than I am able to devote time to at present. I do think, however, that it might be pertinent to re-post a previous assessment of Loane’s statistics.
Table M of Loane’s report, which forms part of his assessment of district mortality rates, provides a breakdown of causes of death of Whitechapel residents in 1887, indicating that none of these deaths were recorded as Homicide during that year. It is this table that Bruce Paley reproduces and cites as documentary evidence of the absence of murder in Whitechapel in 1887. In effect, however, Loane’s statistics simply indicate that no deaths of Whitechapel residents were recorded as murder.
The main body of Loane’s Report confirms that, in addition to the 1602 deaths of residents, given as the total Whitechapel deaths in Table M, there were a further 755 non-residents who died in Whitechapel, and had their deaths registered in the district during the year. As these 755 were non-residents their deaths could not influence district mortality rates and so no breakdown of cause of death is given. They are therefore not included among the 1602 ‘total’ deaths of which none were recorded as homicide.
Even if all 755 persons classified as non-residents had been murdered during the period, their deaths would not have altered Loane’s findings in the slightest, he would still have recorded 0 Homicides. This would not be because of any purposeful under-reporting of murder, but simply because their deaths would not be pertinent to district mortality rates.
Similarly, of the 319 Coroner’s Inquests held in Whitechapel during 1887, only 179 were held on district residents and so recorded among the statistics in Table M. This leaves 140 Whitechapel Coroners Inquests into the deaths of non-residents, which are not included in Table M, and for which we are given no indication of verdict or cause of death.
It may also be worth remembering that had an Annie Millwoood type attack and subsequent death, of a classified resident, occurred in the district in 1887 it would not have altered Loane’s findings. Even a Whitehall type torso would not increase the homicide figures in any similar report for the double reason of the lack of identity, and the fact that the coroner’s jury could only return a verdict of “Found dead.”
Best Wishes
alex |
Author: Ashling
Saturday, 05 February 2000 - 12:58 am | | Hi y'all!
Last year I posted to the major Ripper sites - a link to a web page giving Executions in England quoted from Haydn’s Dictionary of Dates, pub. 1895 in London. Now there’s 2 new sites on Cyndi’s Lists (genealogy) giving the same info. There’s 69 executions for murder listed for the years 1887 - 1890. I took out the names of women murderers, or men murdering men - leaving men murdering women or children. SKs look for a “weak” “available” victim - sometimes a women killer will grab a kid. I further pared down the list by kicking out the names of murderers tried in places I know are distant from London - Liverpool, Manchester, etc., which left 26 names.
The below does give some proof that murderers were being committed during those years in London or nearby, but the data is insufficient to translate these stats into an accurate report. It doesn't account for unsolved murderers, plus some of these murders may have been accidental manslaughter or the like, and we don’t know the date the murders occurred on - except for Lipski. Using dates known for famous cases leads me to believe it was normal for a murderer to be arrested, tried & convicted within 6 months or less. Israel Lipski - Murdered Miriam Angel: June 1887 & Executed: Aug. 1887 (A-Z). William Henry Bury - Murdered his wife: Feb. 5, 1889 & Executed: April 1889 (Mammoth Book of JtR). George Chapman (S. Klosowski) - Arrested: Oct. 25, 1902 & Executed: April 7, 1903 (Trial of George Chapman - excerpted in S. Ryder’s 50 Years of JtR). If those dates are inaccurate, I’m sure those posters with access to primary records of trials will let me know. ;-)
In the second table below, I listed only the murderers tried in Newgate (incidentally I knew some executions carried out in Newgate Prison, but unaware trials held there too) - the same place Lipski was tried. Lipski committed his crime on Batty Street, which is one block over from Berner Street, so a Newgate trial perhaps places all 6 of those murderers in Whitechapel or nearby.
Let me stress that I see these stats as nothing more than a possible starting place, which may point us in the direction of in-depth records. If this is well-trodden ground to “old-timers,” I hope for your continued patience - I’m learning as fast as I can. I’d greatly appreciate any help Londoners or whoever can give on fine-tuning which locales are in or near Whitechapel. I quite agree with Viper that we can’t be militant about excluding murders committed a few blocks away from Whitechapel in our hunt for murder stats. (Fab-u-lous post, Viper!)
ALEX: Many thanks for re-posting the above info on Table M, quite thoughtful of you. (And I haven’t forgotten that I owe you an e-mail.)
1887 - - 1890 EXECUTIONS (Men murdering women or children)
Name ........................... Date Executed ............ Crime ............... Place Tried
BLOXHAM, Thomas ------- 1887 14 Feb ---- Murder of wife; ---- Leicester
TERRY, Benjamin ------- 1887 22 Feb ---- Murder of wife; ---- Nottingham
KING, Joseph --------- 1887 21 Mar ---- Murder of woman and child; ---- Newgate
CARROLL, Thomas William -- 1887 18 Apr -- Murder of LYDIA GREEN; -- Newgate
SMITH, Charles -------- 1887 09 May ---- Murder of wife; -- Cowley near Oxford
YOUNG, Henry William -- 1887 16 May -- Murder of child; -- Dorchester
LIPSKI, Israel -------- 1887 22 Aug ---- Murder of woman; ---- Newgate
WILTON, William ------- 1887 29 Aug ---- Murder of wife; ---- Lewes
WALKER, Joseph -------- 1887 15 Nov ---- Murder of wife; ---- Oxford
MORLEY, Joseph -------- 1887 21 Nov ---- Murder of woman; ---- Chelmsford
CLARKE, George -------- 1888 27 Mar ---- Murder of stepdaughter; ---- Winchester
UPTON, Robert --------- 1888 17 Jul ---- Murder of wife; ---- Oxford
DELANEY, Arthur T. ---- 1888 10 Aug -- Murder of wife; ---- Derby
SARGEANT, George ------ 1888 15 Aug --- Murder of wife; --- Chelmsford
BARTLETT, Levi Richard -- 1888 13 Nov -- Murder of wife; --- Newgate
CLEWS, Thomas --------- 1889 01 Jan ---- Murder of woman; ---- Stafford
JENKINS, Ebenezer Samuel -- 1889 06 Mar -- Murder of his sweetheart; --- Wandsworth
RYLANDS, Samuel ------- 1889 13 Mar ---- Murder of little girl; --- Shepton Mallet Gaol
WITNEY, John --------- 1889 11 Apr ----- Murder of wife; ---- Bristol
PURNELL, Benjamin ---- 1889 09 Dec --- Murder of wife; ---- Devises
HOOK, William Thomas -- 1889 31 Dec -- Wife Murder; --- Maidstone
HIGGINBOTHAM, Charles L. -- 1890 07 Jan -- Murder of landlady; --- ?
NEAL, Thomas --------- 1890 26 Mar ----- Murder of wife; ----- Newgate
BOWLING, George ------ 1890 29 Jul ----- Murder of ELIZA NIGHTINGALE, with whom he lived; ----------- Wandsworth
SPICER, Felix -------- 1890 22 Aug ----- Murder of two children; ---- Knutsford
MANTEAU, Francois ---- 1890 27 Aug ----- Murder of FRANCOIS DE GRAVE; ---- Newgate
1887 - - 1890 Murderers tried at Newgate (Men killing women or children)
Name ........................... Date Executed ............. Crime .............. Place Tried
KING, Joseph --------------- 1887 21 Mar -------- Murder of woman and child; ----- Newgate
CARROLL, Thomas William ---- 1887 18 Apr -------- Murder of LYDIA GREEN; --------- Newgate
LIPSKI, Israel ------------- 1887 22 Aug -------- Murder of woman; --------------- Newgate
BARTLETT, Levi Richard ----- 1888 13 Nov -------- Murder of wife; ---------------- Newgate
NEAL, Thomas --------------- 1890 26 Mar -------- Murder of wife; ---------------- Newgate
MANTEAU, Francois ---------- 1890 27 Aug -------- Murder of FRANCOIS DE GRAVE; --- Newgate
(*Is Francois always a man's name? If so, I should kick out this last stat also.)
Best regards,
Janice |
Author: Jon Smyth
Saturday, 05 February 2000 - 09:15 am | | Excellent poste, Ashling.
Anyone thinking Jack may have been arrested & executed for another unrelated murder would also be interested in your report. |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Saturday, 05 February 2000 - 10:59 am | | Hi Janice,
Great stuff!
From your tables, and my knowledge of the geographical locations of the trials, it would appear that Newgate and Wandsworth handled cases covering the whole of the London area and probably much of that of the Home Counties.
Wandsworth is in south-west London, south of the Thames, while Newgate was north of the river, much closer to Whitechapel.
All the other places are much too far away from London to be classed as 'nearby', I would guess the closest being Chelmsford in the county of Essex.
So we have KING and CARROLL, who probably killed between late 1886 and early 1887, LIPSKI we know in 1887, BARTLETT most likely killed his wife in 1888, and NEAL his, probably between late 1889 and early 1890. Does that sound about right?
Better check with the others (Mike Villon, are you there?), but my understanding is that French girls would feel shortchanged without the e which makes their version Francoise.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Saturday, 05 February 2000 - 12:11 pm | | Just found out from hubby that Chelmsford is 37 miles from the centre of London. (I think they count Charing Cross as the centre.)
Caz |
Author: Leanne Perry
Sunday, 06 February 2000 - 04:43 am | | G'day all,
I dug out of my library, a book titled 'Jack the Ripper, The Whitechapel Horrors'. This is a reprint of a book that first appeared in the 1920's and was written by a resident of Whitechapel.
It includes: 'Though more than thirty years have passed since the Jack the Ripper murders threw the entire nation into a frenzy of horror....'
'Although the police authorities have stated their doubts as to this being one of the Jack the Ripper series of crimes, I am inclined to believe they are wrong. It is true that the victim - Emma Elizabeth Smith - survived her injuries for two whole days, while the others who met their deaths at the miscreants hands must have been almost instantly killed. Yet this crime was perpetrated with such attrocious cruelty, it is nigh impossible to believe that London, or the whole world, contained two such perfect fiends.'
It goes on to give the details of Emma Smiths murder as 'The First Horror', Martha Turner as 'The Second Horror', Mary Ann Nichols as 'Horror The Third', Annie Chapman the fourth, Elizabeth Stide the fifth, Eddowes the sixth and Kelly the 'Seventh And Final Horror'.
LEANNE! |
Author: Ashling
Monday, 07 February 2000 - 04:36 am | | JON: Thanks, and good point. The number of wife murderers alone on this list is astounding. On a modern note, Death Row inmate, Danny Harold Rollings, a.k.a. The Gainesville Slasher, killed 5 Florida college students (1 was male) in August of 1990. Somewhere in his spree, he paused long enough to murder his father in another town.
If the cops hadn't matched him to the Gainesville series of crimes, he might have gone unnoticed in history, just another perp of a heat-of-passion domestic crime.
One day, I'll be able to make the purists here happy by comparing JtR to 19th century murderers ... alas, not finished slogging through Psychopathia Sexualis and other literary gems yet.
CAZ: Many thanks. Viper e-mailed me a nifty little "geography lesson," but I appreciate your confirmation - I always try to verify my facts with 2 or 3 sources.
I've sent off a couple of e-mails myself ... hope to obtain additional info later this week.
Best regards,
Ashling |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Monday, 07 February 2000 - 08:30 am | | Hi Janice,
Yes, the high proportion of wives and sweethearts in your survey either shows that most male murderers and female victims are well known to each other or that these crimes are much more likely to result in a successful conviction. Probably a mixture of both? It would be interesting to know if any of the 26 cases involved total strangers.
I know the figures only represent a tiny sample but they do echo my own instincts that it was extremely rare, as it is today, for women to be physically attacked and killed on the streets of London. It doesn't say a whole lot for longer-term relationships between the sexes though!
These cases are only the top of the pyramid, as you and Alex have pointed out.
At the base we have an unknown number of unreported non-fatal assaults using weapons. For instance, some partners dropped charges or failed to bring them through loyalty or fear. Then come the unsolved suspicious deaths and attacks, including unidentified bodies and any missing without trace, not forgetting that 'unsolved' includes acquittals. Then come all convictions for violent assault and manslaughter.
Love,
Caz |
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