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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Mary Kelly and witness confusion
Casebook Message Boards: Witnesses: General Discussion:
Mary Kelly and witness confusion
Author: Jason Piatt
Tuesday, 20 February 2001 - 06:22 am |        | Hi all!
I am new to Ripperology but am HOOKED on the whole thing now.
I have a question about witness accounts of Kelly's movements on the day of her murder.
I am reading The Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper by Jakubowski and Braund and came across a detailed blow by blow of Kelly's last day.
It states that on 9 November at 4:00am Elizabeth Prater claims to have heard a scream of murder...so did Sarah Lewis AKA Mrs. Kennedy. Anyway, it goes on to state that at 8:00am that morning, Catherine Pickett stop by Kelly's room and knocked, and got no answer.
Now, according to this book, Mary kelly was seen at least 3 times between 8:00am and 10:00am. Her body was discovered by John McCarthy at 10:45am.
When Dr. Bond examined her corpse at 2:00pm, he stated she had likely been killed between 1-2am since rigor had set in...
NOW, I assume either Bond was wrong or the witnesses who said they saw Kelly were wrong and saw someone who looked like her...
Can someone please comment on this and maybe clarify it for me or point me in the direction of additional information?
Jason |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 20 February 2001 - 09:23 am | | Clarify it?
It's been a puzzle for 112 yrs, Jason....welcome to the club.
:-)
This is just another example of eyewitness testimony not jiving with medical testimony. Similar problem with Chapman at Hanbury street.
Regards, Jon |
Author: R Court
Tuesday, 20 February 2001 - 04:40 pm | | Hi Jason,
As Jon says, welcome to the club.
I don't know Jakubowski and Braund's book, but just as a start, the Kelly crime was discovered by McCarthy's assistant, Bowyer, not McCarthy and there are a number of other problems in just the few words you have written above.
I admit that although the JtR-board has got very large, and thus difficult to properly wade through, the effort would be very valuable for anyone being really intrested in Jack. There is already every shade of belief, claim, counter-claim, conviction (some ought even to suffer it) and lie represented, it is a joy to read through.
Truth?... hmmm... Probably just like if you want real justice, seek another planet..
Regards,
Bob |
Author: Jason Piatt
Tuesday, 20 February 2001 - 07:43 pm | | Thanks for the welcome.
It will probably take me 5 years and a million pints of lager to wade through the interesting posts on the JTR boards.
You were correct about Bowyer, my typo.
As I said, I think it would be safe to say that if her body were found around 10:45am and rigor had set in 3 hours later (seems kinda quick) that she had been dead longer.
I have always thought Mary's murder was the most interesting cause there seemed to be so much and so little evidence--know what i mean?
Anyway, thanks for replying, I look forward to going through the boards...
Jason |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 20 February 2001 - 08:48 pm | | Jason
We had some medical input back in 98/99? about the onset of rigor, its all here...somewhere :-(
I recall the laymen's opinion was that a cold morning would speed up the chemical process that results in rigor, but I believe (I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) that in actual fact the opposite is the case, warmth will speed it up, cold slows the process.
Now, please someone correct me if I've got this back-asswards.
Much has been posted to do with rigor mortis in the cases of Chapman & Kelly. You might try a word search on 'rigor' or rigor mortis.
Best of luck.....see you next week :-)
Regards, Jon |
Author: R Court
Tuesday, 20 February 2001 - 09:39 pm | | Hi Jon,
Wasn't there something about being able to put wheels on and go skate-boarding down the street?
Many years ago......
Regards,
Bob |
Author: John Omlor
Saturday, 03 March 2001 - 01:52 pm | | Hi Jason,
If you head over to the Mary Kelly board (under "Ripper Victims" and then under "Specific Victims"), there is a discussion going on about the conflicting witness testimonies and precisely the issues you raise above.
I hope you find some of what's there at least interesting and provocative.
--John |
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