|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
"Shabby Genteel"
Casebook Message Boards: Witnesses: General Discussion:
"Shabby Genteel"
Author: Charles Andrews Dunnagan
Thursday, 13 January 2000 - 06:53 pm |        | | Greetings all. In Mr. Sugden's Complete History, the phrase "shabby genteel" is attributed to two different witnesses (so far, in my reading). In the paper back it's on page 96 and used by Mrs Long. On page 127 the phrase is used by Joseph Taylor. Was this a popular expression of the day? Or is it, apologies Mr Sugden, a mis-quote. I realize this is not one of the more earth-shattering aspects of the case: I'm just curious. Thank-you, Charlie |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Thursday, 13 January 2000 - 11:37 pm | | Greetings Charles Andrews Dunnagan:
Hmmmmmm. Why should this be a misquote? We have to remember that in 1888 people were much more class conscious than we are today. People did not move from one class to another. There was the upper class (aristocracy), the middle class (bankers, merchants, teachers, etc.), and the lower class (tradesmen, servants, and so on). By the description "shabby genteel" I believe this would pretty specifically designate somebody who was in the middle class but verging on the lower class. We might suspect that it might be a gentleman who has fallen on hard times, for example, a person with education and not a working class man. It could also designate a teacher or a clergyman with few resources, for example.
Chris George |
Author: Caz
Friday, 14 January 2000 - 04:12 am | | From Chambers 20th Century Dictionary:
'shabby-genteel' keeping up or affecting an appearance of gentility, though really very shabby,-n. 'shabby-gentility'.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 14 January 2000 - 05:35 am | | CHRIS-GEORGE: You wrote -
"We might suspect that it might be a gentleman who has fallen on hard times, for example, a person with education and not a working class man. It could also designate a teacher or a clergyman with few resources, for example."
That's an excellent definition, one I agreed with totally, but now I'm considering another possibility. After reading the definition posted by Caz (thanks!), plus looking up the definitions for shabby & genteel - I think it might mean someone from the lower class who had illusions of grandeur. I believe the East End abounded in second-hand clothing stalls, where clothes from all walks of life were available. I'll have to think about this a bit more.
Janice |
Author: Charles Dunnagan
Friday, 14 January 2000 - 06:47 pm | | Greetings all. First of all, let me re-introduce myself as Charlie (Charles Andrews Dunnagan). Anyway, I thank ya'll for the responses. However, I was wondering if "shabby genteel" was a common expression of the populace. Sort of like we have "Bob's your uncle" or "Totally awesome,dude" or even "Shrinkage!!!" As for the meaning, I agree with Chris George, and picture Ian Anderson during Jethro Tull's "Aqualung" phase.
But having two different witnesses use the same phrase makes me wonder if it was a cliche, part of the vernacular. Again, I thank you. Charlie |
Author: Martin Fido
Wednesday, 21 June 2000 - 04:04 pm | | It certainly was part of the vernacular. I think
it was Thackeray, not Dickens, who wrote an essay
called 'Shabby Genteel', though Dickens, whose own
father clung to respectability with enormous
difficulty, was the writer who was really
fascinated by the type. (Oh, how I miss my
books!) The sort of person described would be
dressed in a full suit with a tie or cravat, but
you might notice that his cuffs were frayed; that
one or more fingers of his gloves were split; that
he had used black ink to cover up faded or
discoloured patches in his hat. For the
comfortable writers from the upper middle classes
the term carried a touch of pathos. They
recognised a rather desperate effort to maintain
respectability in the teeth of visible poverty
which would probably deny the shabby genteel
person the real respect they might deserve. It's
interesting to recall that Sherlock Holmes
detected a man falling on hard times by the fact
that his boots had been re-soled. This would make
me 'shabby genteel' all my life - even at times
when I've been most successful and prosperous. But
all these things are relative. We've all enjoyed
Alan Clarke's dismissal of Michael Hesseltine as
'the kind of man who buys his own furniture'.
Martin F |
Author: adam wood
Thursday, 22 June 2000 - 04:38 am | | I always fancied Shabby Genteel as a Victorian music hall name...
Adam |
Author: Julian Rosenthal
Saturday, 24 June 2000 - 07:23 am | | G'day guys,
honestly guys, I reckon he wass talking about shaggy genitals.
Jules |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 06:02 pm | | "Shabby Genteel" was definitely a stock-phrase in the Victorian era. I've seen it elsewhere, notably in the book "Darkness and Daylight; or, Lights and shadows of New York life. A woman's story of gospel, temperance, mission, and rescue work ... by Helen Campbell (1892: Hartford, Conn., A.D. Worthington & Co.) which is of interest to Ripperologists because it has a chapter on policework by Thomas Byrnes of the New York Police Department. In the book, an engraving of a New York hobo is entitled "shabby genteel"; it shows a sort of Charlie Chaplin character--a once prosperous man who has fallen on hardtimes.
Elizabeth Long's description is probably the most undervalued in the entire case. She almost certainly she saw the murderer. This would make the Ripper a 'foreign' man [looking? sounding?] of 'shabby genteel' appearance, more than likely over the age of 40. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Thursday, 28 February 2002 - 02:31 pm | | | Hi R.J. You could well be right in your comments about Elizabeth Long.I also find 'Shabby genteel' a very interesting concept indeed. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Friday, 01 March 2002 - 08:24 am | | Ivor-Hi. Yeah, sometimes people post the very 'reasonable' argument that the Ripper was a "yet undiscovered white working-class local, age 25-35". Sounds scientific. But I think Elizabeth Long's description is a big mark against this thinking. Coupled with what Cadosch heard a couple of minutes later, she almost certainly had to have seen the murderer. By 'shabby genteel', I'm thinking of someone along the lines of Ostrog, D'onston, maybe Tumblety. Sickert [groan] and Francis Thompson would fit, but are too young.
Lawende is the other important 'sighting'. But his seems a lot more problematic to me. I tend to think he didn't see Eddowes. And I think women in Whitechapel would be more perceptive about what men looked like and how they were dressed. Their safety and livelihoods depended on it. Cheers RP |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Saturday, 02 March 2002 - 07:55 am | | | Hi R.J,You have a good perspective on the subject matter. Even today people in general tend to judge others by first appearances.When dealing with certain types of criminals this can have disastrous conconsequences. Thus if one wishes to give a false impression one simply changes one's appearance and behaviour.Criminals do this all the time in the pursuit of crime. When I was "at it" appearances and behaviour to myself were a very important aspect of my chosen profession.Psychology and intelligence gathering were other key aspects. Many 'straight' people have no inclination on what goes on in criminal circles.Thus they have no understanding in any depth of many criminal related matters. It is akin to a bricklayer making out that he knows all about being a plumber.Which reminds me,some of the reasoning I see used in connection with these murders is akin to some people believing that because a bricklayer lays bricks that it stands to reason that a plumber lays plums!!!! |
|
|
|
|
