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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Donston's neurosthenia
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Ripper Suspects:
Donston's neurosthenia
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 12:34 am |        | A most interesting question. According to "The True Face of Jack the Ripper," the ailment for which Donston Stephenson signed himself into London Hospital. According to Melvin Harris, very importantly different from neurasthenia - an energy sapping complaint - and inasmuch as neurosthenia involves high excitement and an increase in physical and nervous activity, it is compatible with a neurosthenic patient's ability to be Jack the Ripper. (Unlike neureasthenia).
Yet very difficult to trace in reliable medical reference books. Unknown to the OED. Found by Google (after some months of simply asking "Do you mean neurasthenia?"") on 24 boards, which can be increased to 71+ of highly similar entries. (And the first page of the 71+ indicates that they really are the same material repeated.)
Of those 24, we have 3 unquestionable errors for neurasthenic (as it is properly given in the following text); 4 in incomprehensible Asian or middle eastern languages; 1 obviously probable error, since it goes on to describe someting sounding so inactive as to be more neurasthenic than neurosthenic (according to the only definition of the latter known to me: that supplied by Melvin Harris); 3 which are so remote from their original cited texts as to be impossible to assess; 1 leading to a dead website; 3 on the same law court judgement, which any interested person may read carefully to decide whether it really endorses the interpretation Melvin wishes us to put on neurosthenic; one completely barmy website that nobody serious would cite for anything; one which I find completely incomprehensible; one which says something about drug prescriptions being useful for neurosthenia; two pornography sites; and three which ae simnply our own discussions about DStephenson in the hospital. So we start with a highly uncertain condition. It is possible that in certain issues of "Ripper Notes" before I subscribed to it this was satisfactorily explained, but I doubt it from what I have heard. More importantly still - far more importantly, in fact, - we have only the undocumented statement in "The True Face" that Stephenson registered himself in the London Hospital giving his disorder as neurosthenia. Once serious arguments are based on this claim and it is suggested that those who misquote it as "neurasthenia" are attempting to change history, it becomes necessary to insist that the source of the original claim is made known properly. Are we looking at a single hand-written entry in hospital records with a single reader deciding that the word is in fact neurOsthenia? Or have we several typewritten records? Have we any further case notes to tell us what was the patient's condition, or are we dependent on a committed researcher's interpretation of incomplete evidence? I am the first to concede that it is difficult to get publishers to allow proper citation and critical apparatus - (though it is always possible that admirers of Pope's "flies in amber" line have never appreciated the extent to which Bentley, the original placer of such flies in amber, ran rings round Pope when it came to scholarship until he fooishly tried to apply classical editing standards to Milton) - and to envy those like Paul Begg and Phil Sugden whose publishers allowed them to give proper footnotes. Still, nearly all publishers will allow at least the sort of half-adequate notes to sources of chapters I supplied in "The Crimes, Detection and Death..." And anyone who could get away with 10 appendices, many of them attacking other people's work without reference to their own book's main content, as was achieved by the author of "The True Face", ought to have known that proper critical apparatus comes first, and we need to know his sources.
So what really is the source for the claim that Stephenson's illness was neurosthenia and that this was fully understood in 1888 as a disorder which would allow the patient freedom of movement throughout his time of hospitalization? All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 06:29 am | | Hi Mr. Fido,
this is a very interesting train of thought that could lead to intriquing research. "Neurosthenia"...one of the many maddeningly vague illnesses the Victorians suffered from. I don't find it outrageous to question whether someone could have misspelled this word, meaning one but actually writing the other. I think both illnesses would be worth researching (being as how I haven't read up on these, the first thought that comes to my mind is that is sounds like some kind of bipolar illness). I wonder if there is some kind of medical history library that could be accessed for old textbooks that could possibly lend some light on the subject? I will check around today if I can - I am near Duke University and of course they have their famous law library, and the medical school, but I am unsure whether they would bother to keep old medical textbooks for historical purposes. They love their "progressive" image too much! Its worth a try, though! I think a 100 to 150 year old medical textbook would be fascinating. |
Author: Yazoo
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 08:53 am | | Hey Martin:
Somewhere on the Casebook, Melvin provided the source(s) for his definition of neurOsthenia. If I remember arightly they were post-1888 and one was an American publication. I was unconvinced then about the diagnosis as I was when I first tried to look-up the ailment, and as I continue to be.
You might also ask: How frequent was this diagnosis given prior to its lapsing into disuse; assuming that it 1) truly existed as a category and 2) was ever used at all?
Yaz
P.S., Having contracted pneumonia while working in the wilderness of Cincinnati, I don't have the energy to argue with Melvin on his big Bluff board. Sorry. |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 10:48 am | | | Many thanks, Yaz. Yes, there's a board entry saying that a 1900 medical reference work carried an entry on neurosthenia which remained for about four decades, and the observation that Melvin sent Chris George a more serious Victorian citation earlier, which is why I noted that this question might have been answered in an early number of Ripper Notes that I don't own. But the question of proper documentation - what is the source for saying Donston was in the London Hospital with neurosthenia in the first place? - remains to be answered. And when answered, checked and verified as all such material should be. No doubt the entry is in the hospital registers which Andy obtained for Melvin, but it would be interesting to have a transcript of them confirmed by a couple of readers, and indeed necessary if card houses of speculation are to be mounted on Donston's illness and his capabilities while in the hospital. One line of enquiry might be to see what was the general range of diagnoses for patients in the Currie Ward, where Donston was lying. It wa such an examination of the workhouse nformary ward where Kamnsky was treated for syphilis that led me to suspect that all patients there were either ambulatory residents or out-patients. A speedy recovery to you from the pneumonia, and many thanks for taking the trouble to contribute anything at all while laid low. All the best, Martin F |
Author: judyjanes
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 12:04 pm | | | Hi Martin F, I am new to the general diss. and I assume that I've not rec'd a response to my earlier messages re mixup in pictures (Maybricks) and Spratling (Police) I obviously used the wrong format. I am thrilled to be able to contact you I am a hugh fan of you and several good authors of true crime especially Jack. A very interesting comment on Bi-Polar also know as Manic Depression is a very good possible mental problem of Jack and or D'Onston. I am Bi-polar as are many great scholars actors doctors etc. Several symptoms of this disease can be applied without question to Jack. eg: When in the manic phase aside from being high on life, you have nerve to do and say things that normally you would not, while still possessing enough intellegence to know what you are doing is wrong, when the manic phase passes and the depression sets in, especially in fall & winter, you can dive down to the depths of no return. You want to be alone, don't want to eat or the opposite eat twice as much, and the biggie you feel suicidal, this is when hospitalization is needed. During this time most bi-polar persons can remember what happened years ago but not what happened a few minutes ago. Try as you may, you cannot remember current events. Your concentration level is another high and low problem, mosting low, but you still are aware of what is going on around you, could perform an operation, act on stage etc. without showing a sign of mental illness or again the total opposite, But you can still function, no problem. Everyone is different of course but the general rules apply. There are many more symptons, too many to mention here. There are many sites outling this chemical imbalance, bi-polar, on the net and I would be happy to refer you if you think it would help at all. Many regards, judyjanes |
Author: alex chisholm
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 12:27 pm | | Evening All
For what it’s worth, Richard D. Hoblyn’s “Dictionary of Terms used in Medicine and the Collateral Sciences” Twelfth edition revised by J. A. P. Price, B.A., M.D. Oxon., published by Whittaker & Co., London, 1892, gives the following definitions:
“Neurasthenia – (want of strength). Nervous exhaustion, characterized by over-sensitiveness, irritability, mutability, &c.”
“Neurosthenia – (force). An excess of nervous irritation; an inflammatory affection of the nerves.”
All double Dutch to me, but at least it shows both terms were in use at the time.
Best Wishes
alex |
Author: stephen miller
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 01:46 pm | | Hi All I have an ancestor who was admitted into hospital in 1926 suffering from neurasthenia. He died in 1929 on the death certificate his cause of death was stated as "General paralysis 2years 2 months". The family story is that his condition started when he was kicked by a pit pony.
This obviously does not add much to the discussion save a slight insight into the conditions of Neurasthenia.
all the best
steve |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 01:55 pm | | Hi, Martin:
Yes Melvin has provided a source for his differentiation between "neurasthenia" (want of strength) and "neurosthenia" (an excess of nervous irritation). At this point, I seem to have misplaced the reference and am not sure if it is the same one that Alex has kindly cited. It is though definitely an older text not a recently published source. I do work in the medical field, and from what I can tell the term "neurosthenia" is now viewed in the medical community as an obsolete term.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 04:48 pm | | Hi Judy,
Sorry if you tried to raise me before and got no response. During the teaching year I am likely to disregard the boards entirely: my unfortunate students, paying absolutely monstrous fees, are entitled to my fairly undivided attention, and will get it again when the Columbus Day long weekend's teaching schedule revisions end on Wednesday, and I return to my serious remunerated duties. I only popped in during this "holiday" period because private e-mails informed me that Melvin Harris was being rude again about things written a month or so ago, and I decided to take a look at what he's up to now.
Many thanks for your interesting observations on bi-polar illnesses. I'm sure it's perfectly possible that some such disability could have been described as 'neurosthenia' by Victorian doctors; could have been Donston Stephenson's malady; and could have allowed him to be Jack the Ripper if he could manage both the illness and the hospital security well enough to move to and fro. The general objection is "too many could have beens..." but that doesn't render the whole thing impossible. Thus many of us look forward to Ivor's book reopening the Donston case with new arguments. The general exception taken to the case as prsented by Mr Harris is to the insistent pretence that one of the shakiest theories has been established entirely satisfactorily, and those who point out its weaknesses are disregarding supposedly conclusive arguments issued in the past. As an example of one way in which Ivor is facing up to difficulties rather than trying to face down challenges, consider the question of hospital security. In an undated letter sent in 1994, Melvin wrote to me, "As for the hsopital being secure at night, this is moonshine. Only the front lodge was staffed and monitored by an attendant, and this, of course, was the legitimate way in and out. The many other doors leading to the grounds were of little concern to the admninistration, and the truth is that English hospitals were never troubled by security requirements until recent years." Now the actual truth is that all that confident bluster about "moonshine" and "the truth" is an unscholarly attempt to dismiss the problem without examining it. Contemporary newspaper carried ocasional stories about hospital security, and knowing this, Ivor Edwards, instead of crying, "Moonshine!" has looked them up and cited them properly. My discovery of one of these led me to believe that Victorian hospitals wer normally so secure that not even nurses could move in and out freely at night time. Ivor thinks that this and similar stories indicate that such security was an extreme rarity in 1888. We differ in how we interpret the peculiar fact that such stories made itinto the papers, but we don't scream moonshine at each other and insist thatwe have proved a point which needs no further discussion.
So I do hope you won't mind my saying that I find your observations on bi-polar illness very interesting; certainly of potential relevance to the Donston Stephenson case; but not strong enough to convince me of his probability as a suspect.
With all good wishes, Martin F |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 06:08 pm | | Hi Martin, You wrote, We only have the undocumented statement in "The True Face" that Stephenson registered himself in the London Hospital giving his disorder as Neurosthenia.
Stephenson did not sign himself into the London Hospital giving his disorder as Neurosthenia. He was signed in by hospital staff who placed that condition in the Physicians' Male Patients book.
While at the London Hospital checking on Stephenson I was informed that his case records were missing. I did check the Physicians' Male Patients book myself and hired a professional photographer to take photos of the entry relating to Stephenson. I have the patients name and date of entry, his general No, his residence, age and civil state, occupation,ward,case which was Neurosthenia,his physician's name,and time of discharge.All this information is found in my book. If it is to be questioned that Stephenson was not admitted into hospital with such a complaint then all entries in all medical records in all hospitals of the period can be questioned. We cannot state that Stephenson was not addmitted with such an ailment just for the sake of it when the hospital records show otherwise. Stephenson was admitted to the London Hospital twice and I have both sets of records.As for Stephenson's probability as a suspect that is not in question because a suspect he is. The question is was he Jack the Ripper ?
PS. You had me in stitches when you wrote Harris was being rude again and you wondered what he was up to now. |
Author: judyjanes
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 06:47 pm | | | Hi again Martin, I know you misunderstood my message, I do not at all think D'Onston was Jack, my suggestion was meant to say that "Jack the Ripper" may have been Bi-Polar. I am enjoying Jack the Ripper A - Z right now. In Canada it is very difficult to get any Jack the R. books. My fav. bookstore sent to the U.K. & got one for me at a pricely sum.If the diary can be proven without a doubt to be authentic & belonging to James Maybrick, it could have been doctored by his brother Michael, shortly after James death. I firmly believe that James overdosed due to prolonged use of arsenic etc or his brother Michael was responsible for his death. I pointed out to Ivor a discrepancy in photos of the Maybrick bros. In Colin Wilson's book J the R, The final Chapter there is a picture identified as James and a comparison made to the composite sketches made from witness statements, and there was indeed an uncanny resemblance that Donald Rumbelow & others have commented on, however the exact same picture in The last Victim by Carol Emmas & Anne Graham notes the identification as Michael Maybrick. Has this been brought up before? If both are indeed James, plus the diary then my vote is certainly for James as Jack,if Michael then he needs to be looked at, particulary since he would have had many opportunities to access the diary. Outside of this area, there are so many good suspects, James Kelly, Druit, even some doctors, maybe a cop, but my gut feeling leans toward Kosminski. I am still unable to accept the fact that these murders could have been commited under the noses of the police, no real witnesses, no sightings of men covered in blood, carrying body parts,and able to escape into the darkness without being caught in the act. Someone else must have known but cared little due to the class of the victims. One other question Martin, do you personally believe that the Ripper was without medical skills ? I find it hard to accept this observation. Thank you again, Keep on Writing. Regards judy |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 06:54 pm | | | Not being the type of person to bury evidence which does not enforce my case I feel obliged to add the following.Suffice to state that I went into great depth to ascertain Stephenson's correct ailment on my visit to the London Hospital. I was informed by Mr Evans who is in charge of records at the London Hospital that Merrick was incorrectly diagnosed on admission as having elephantiasis when in fact he had never been to the tropics. Mr Evans went on to state that Stephenson could also have been incorrectly diagnosed.It would appear that it was quite a hit and miss affair to determine the correct ailments of many patients.I know for a fact that this is indeed the case today with many GP's.Some months ago I informed my GP that I believed I had trapped a nerve in my hand to which he replied,"That is not possible you do not have any nerves in your hands" !!!!! Suffice to state that I got rid of this quack straight away. This however leads us nowhere in relation to Stephenson if anything it leaves us with a blank page so to speak. |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 07:22 pm | | Ivor, thanks for a good laugh - a rare occurrence on this board! Who in heaven's name licensed your doctor who tends to nerveless hands?
And I should add (what time did not allow me to get in before, as my lady wife needed rapid access to the computer to make bookings for our travels at Christmas) that I have now come across a note or letter to the effect that you have indeed looked at the London Hospital records, as I guess Andy must have done, too. So I don't think there can be serious doubt that wherever and however many times the word occurs, "neurosthenia" as opposed to neurasthenia must appear. It would, though be very useful to have the full records so that we might have some idea of just what the diagnosis probably amounts to.
All the best, Martin F |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 07:25 pm | | Hi Judy!
I'm not really an expert on the Maybrickian details. I remember some weird discussions about one of the pictures of Maybrick and whether it was James or Michael, including the notion that there was somethiing very sinister about one version having been printed backwards. But I tend to get hazy abouttheories I think non-starters. Probably Caroline, who's in touch with Keith, is the best and most sympathetic person for you to turn to.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Robin
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 08:50 pm | | Hi everbody,
I think I may be able to help here.
The Victorian condition known as ‘Neurasthenia’ was also sometimes spelt as ‘Neurosthenia’ – though I suggest that in some instances it was more a case of an ‘a’ looking like an ‘o’.
The term (in either spelling) has, as others have already pointed out, fallen into disuse. However, the medical condition to which the term(s) referred has not disappeared. I should know - I have been suffering from it for nearly thirteen years! This mentally and physically debilitating, painful, and (believe me) distressing illness is now known as ‘Fibromyalgia Syndrome’ or ‘FMS.’
Until recently, FMS was considered to be a psychological illness - all in the mind, and all that – akin to M.E. and CFS. Today, thank goodness, the majority of researchers (international) studying the illness regard it as having a physical but yet to be clearly identified cause. Trauma to the spine is just one example of possible causes being looked at (of interest to me because I have a damaged spine and congenital spinal canal stenosis – and, being hopelessly greedy, I have angina, too).
Even though I daily take a cocktail of modern medications to help ease some of the FMS’s many and varied symptoms, a combination of physical and mental rest is still the single most effective way to cope with the illness. I say this not solely from my personal experience but also from the experience of many fellow sufferers.
So, if (and I accept that that remains a very big ‘if’) Donston was indeed in hospital because he was suffering from Neurasthenia/Fibromyalgia Syndrome, then I for one think it extremely unlikely that he was JtR. Yes, swings from mania to depression and back again, extreme nervous anxiety, etcetera, etcetera, are part-and-parcel of FMS, but the soul-sapping fatigue and systemic pain that so often accompanies them tend to prevent the sufferer from carrying out physical and or mental tasks beyond the basic. So, for what it’s worth, I find it difficult to imagine a FMS sufferer being at the same time an active and violent killer.
Regards to all,
Robin |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 09:57 pm | | | Martin, The doctor in question probably got his license from the same guy as Dr West. I find it incredible that the number of victims atributed to Dr West is now in the hundreds. It would not surprise me to learn that the highest number of killers in any one profession would be in the medical field.Has anyone ever undertaken a poll to find out which profession has the greatest number of killers among it's ranks? |
Author: Jon
Monday, 14 October 2002 - 10:34 pm | | Ivor
With reference to the doctor you so quickly dismissed as a quack I thought I might offer a similar exchange I had with mine.
After an all too enthusiastic workout session in my home jym I developed pains in my hand which spread up my arm.
After a casual mention to my doctor she explained that such pains usually emanate from the spine and not from the location where you first feel the pain. She explained that "no, you may not have trapped a nerve in your hand, that is unlikely, more likely it is a trapped nerve in your neck".
She was right, maybe your doctor just didnt explain himself too clearly.
Best regards, Jon |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Tuesday, 15 October 2002 - 12:05 am | | | Hi Jon, Perhaps you could be correct and the doctor in question did not explain himself very clearly. In relation to my last post I have just learnt that the largest professional group in the German ss during World War 2 came from the medical profession. |
Author: Dave Massey
Tuesday, 15 October 2002 - 03:42 am | | Hi, I remember a book by Alex Comfort ( he of the Joy of Sex ) which was published in the late 60's called The Anxiety Makers, the sub title of which was 'Some curious preoccupations of the medical profession'in which I think the term neurosthenia was discussed in relation to sexual guilt and anxiety.The book was mainly about the Victorian attitude to sex. If someone has a copy, it may be worth checking through.
Regards
Dave |
Author: Martin Fido
Tuesday, 15 October 2002 - 07:41 am | | Hi Ivor - I'd have thought professional Mafia hitmen from the 1930s must have come pretty high up the list. The group under Albert Anastasia nicknamed Murder Inc by the press was believed to be involved in over 500 murders, and their most prolific member, "Pittsburgh Phil" Strauss was named in about 60 cases, and pretty certainly involved in at least twice as many. But I don't think it's ever been researched fully. From the other side of the hit, I think policemen and prostitutes are probably the groups at most risk professionally (though not from professional hitmen).
Hi Dave - yes, an excellent book by a writer whose ultimate (lucrative) identification as the Sexual Joyman unhappily overshadowed his earlier less celebrated standing as gerontologist, popular science writer and peace campaigner. (Also addressee of a rather good poem by Dannie Abse).
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: ALAN SMITH
Wednesday, 16 October 2002 - 11:21 am | | Martin,
Your reference to the Mafia and Murder inc is actually fairly relevant in the broad subject of JTR.
Murder inc were almost exclusively Jewish, (Even the psychopathic Anastasia being subordinate to Louis "Lepke" Buchalter") and therefore not members of the Mafia.(To be a member of which you must be Sicilian)
Murder inc carried out hundreds of murders with impunity until ultimately betrayed by one of their own. The fact that no witnesses were forthcoming was undoubtedly due in part to the fact that most people viewed them with absolute terror. However Surely it was partly due to the thinking that as Jews they must,as a community stick together.
The point I am making being that the elusiveness of Jack would certainly be more understandable if part of the community in which he lived were unwilling to turn him in or were actively sheltering him.
Alan |
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