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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Freemason Connection?
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: General Discussion :
Freemason Connection?
Author: Bill Denny
Saturday, 06 November 1999 - 04:06 pm |        | Paul Begg wrote ' ..it is a mystery that anyone thought that Juwes was a masonic word'.
When I first read reference to 'Juwes' more than 20 odd years ago in Stephen Knight's 'The Final Solution' it struck a chord with me. I have always believed in a masonic connection, albeit in the manner of the terrible mutilations to the unfortunate victims, but the use of the word Juwes I was sure I had heard before. The out of hand dismissal by Paul, and of course others, led to me believe that perhaps I was reading too much into a masonic connection and my theories had become 'fogged'.
That is until recently when I read 'The Hiram Key'
by Christohper Knight and Robert Lomas ISBN 0-7126-8579-0.
They write (page 12)
"....a Past Master gave an explanation of the Third Degree. The three villians who murdered Hiram Abiff were identified as Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum, known jointly as the Juwes; pronounced Joo-ees."
They go on to write on page 136
" In Masonic legend the killers of Hiram Abif are named as ....together described as 'the Juwes'. The names themselves sound like symbolic invention; the only meaning we could deduce was all three names contain the word Jubel which in Arabic means mountain....."
So there we are, the term 'Juwes' is still, and probably was in 1888, in use in Masonic circles. (Contra Wor. Bro. Dennis Stocks, Barron Barnett Lodge. See Freemasonary Essay#1)
Should the profile of Jack now include masonic knowledge and middle class origin?. (But can the chalked writing be attributed to 'Jack'? I hear you say)
Await being shot down in flames!
Bill |
Author: anon
Saturday, 06 November 1999 - 11:19 pm | | | Paul Begg was right. The Masonic connection idea is as much rubbish as the diary. |
Author: Andrew Morton
Sunday, 07 November 1999 - 07:36 am | | To anon
My sympathies are with Bill Denny, mere statements without supporting evidence are worthless and only illustrate prejudice. You haven't said why you think the masonic theory is rubbish so why should we pay any attention to you?
Who knows, if I was a conspiracy theorist I might presume that this is evidence that you are a mason... |
Author: Small Point
Monday, 08 November 1999 - 05:52 am | | | The point being made was that although JUWES had been used in American Freemasonry, it had not featured in British Freemasonry for some considerable time and it was for this reason that it was wondered at that anyone would have recognised its Masonic significance. |
Author: jill
Sunday, 14 November 1999 - 11:51 pm | | | Would an American have known the English didn't? |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Monday, 15 November 1999 - 02:17 am | | Hi, All:
It would seem that the Knight and Lomas book is part history and part hokum mixed with some questionable scholarship. One reviewer on amazon.com compared to it von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods." I think that just about says it.
As for the supposed word "Jewes" or "Juwes" having a Masonic connection, my enquiry to a Mason produced the following reply from Tim Miller, WM, PM of Ark Lodge 39, who had written a review of the Knight and Lomas book doubting a number of its references to Masonic history:
"I know of no reference to the word 'Jewes' in Masonic ritual. Ancient craft masonry consists of 3 degrees, Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master. Recent developments in Masonry have added degrees for the York and Scottish Rites, up to the 33rd degree, and the Shriners. In those degrees, (which as I said are recent degrees and not something I subscribe to) there are a number of 'secret' words of which jewes may be one, but I doubt it. There is also a story of three ruffians who attack and kill the architect of King Solomon's Temple, who may at times have been incorrectly referred to as the 'Jewes', Jubela, Jubelo, Jubelum."
Chris George |
Author: D. Radka
Monday, 15 November 1999 - 05:13 pm | | I am an American Freemason, and am not aware of any reference to Jubela, Jubelum, and Jubelo as the Juwes. The three figure prominently and fundamentally in Masonry, however, and I think I'd know this word form if it were used. Then again, I don't know everything--perhaps things were different a century ago.
David |
Author: Wolf
Monday, 15 November 1999 - 08:18 pm | | Scott Palmer has offered an interesting insight into the whole Ripper, Masonic debate. Not only is he the author of Jack the Ripper, A reference Guide but he has also attained the Sublime Degree of Master Mason and includes a chapter on Freemasonry in his book.
Palmer writes, "Knight purports that ‘Juwes' was a deliberate spelling, and referred to Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelem, who slew Hiram Abiff of King Solomon's Temple. Now Knight obviously was no Freemason; there is no reference anywhere in Masonry to ‘Juwes' being a term to refer collectively to Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelem."
He later adds, "Paul Begg, Martin Fido and Keith Skinner are obviously no Masons either. In their excellent Jack the Ripper A-Z they state that Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelem are revealed in the early stages of Freemasonry. This is a fallacy. These three names are mentioned only in the ceremony of the third or final Masonic Degree, when one becomes a Master Mason - and that is the highest level in Masonry."
So, although Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelem are used in Masonic ceremony, it is not a wide spread use (unless the degree of Master Mason is fairly common which apparently it is not) nor is the term ‘Juwes" used by Masons.
Wolf. |
Author: Bill Denny
Saturday, 20 November 1999 - 06:02 am | | Thanks to all who took the time to reply to my post. I take all your comments on board.
However, I would like to add one or two points.
1. Master Mason is not only common but the degree nearly all masons attain. The progression to the Mark Degree is also very common.
2. Yes, The Hiram Key is full of suppositions and weak conclusions. But there is a great deal of factual evidence as well. And the majority of commentators in the Amazon review gave it a very high rating.
One last thing to mull over. The removal of personal possesions, especially metal is another important part of Masonic ritual...as it was at the murder sites?.
Bill |
Author: kemp
Wednesday, 05 January 2000 - 09:22 pm | | Dear Masonites,
I am attempting to illustrate to a few of the non believers that there was very much a conspiracy of some kind. I am writing letters in the General discussion area under Primary Sources.I would appreciate any help or advice so as to try and persuade our "brethren ripperologists" that there was something rather strange happening with the powers that be in the late 19th century!
Regards, Kemp. |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 05 January 2000 - 11:33 pm | | Kemp
After reading one Ripper book.....just one Ripper book (guess which one, folks), then taking up the cause of the Masonites / Masonettes, you say there was 'very much a conspiracy'???.
Well,....no-one is ever going to accuse you of being objective :-)
Best of luck, Brother Kemp
Regards, Jon
(Guinness sure is strong stuff, aye bejaysus)
:-) |
Author: kemp
Thursday, 06 January 2000 - 09:12 pm | | Dear Jon,
The English only drink lager!! :-)(Sometimes English bitter!)I have also added Begg's A to Z and a book by a fellow Hullite called Sugden. That's 3 books(what a nice number!).
The main point though is what the primary sources throws up; and in another part of this message board I am establishing that one can not just discount a particular idea because it is no longer fashionaable.Watch that space and you will see that Historians always aim to be objective.Please note my earlier remarks about a priori assumptions.
Thanks for the reply. Best regards,
Kemp. |
Author: Melanie Johnson
Friday, 07 January 2000 - 11:47 am | | Kemp, my friend, sometimes we drink Molson. =)
You want proof that the Masonic theory is overblown? I'll give it to you, or if not proof at least a persuasive argument.
1. Stephen Knight argues that Mary Kelly's killing bore Masonic overtones because of the passage "and my right leg bare" with reference to initiations. The Master Mason candidate has to roll up his trouser leg. Knight argues that with Kelly, the rolled away the flesh. Unfortunately, Knight doesn't note that Kelly's LEFT thigh was bare, too. Both legs were stripped to the fascia.
2. Knight says that Chapman and Eddowes were murdered in replication to the form of Jubelo's execution. "O that my left breast had been torn open and my heart and vitals taken from thence and thrown over my left shoulder." In both of those women the intestines were over the RIGHT shoulder.
Just airing my thoughts!
Mel |
Author: kemp
Saturday, 08 January 2000 - 11:28 am | | Hi Melanie,
Good points. I defo.. like the one about drink! :-)
If you get a chance have a look at my arguments under general discussion(Primary sources). I shall be addressing your points and a few others there.
Regards,
Kemp. |
Author: Carl Dodd
Thursday, 06 July 2000 - 02:23 pm | | Having been a police officer and master mason, I can tell you, without a doubt, that the masons were NOT involved in the JtR murders. The masons are a group of people who bond together to help other people. Masonic Blue Lodges often support or work with elderly people or at nursing homes. The Consistory groups work with troubled teens. The Shriners maintain a group of hospitals which treat children with burns and deformities. The medical treatment given by the Shriners' Hospital is done at NO COST to the child needing the treatment. Many of the burn treatments which have come to be, such as artificial skin, came from the Shriners' Burn Center.
I tend to think that if the masons were involved with the JtR murders it was in the effort to solve the crime. The reason is that masons are very civic minded and law abiding. Masons who get in trouble with the law can be discharged from their masonic groups. People who apply to become masons must not have a criminal record. No, there's no way that the masons were criminally involved with the JtR murders. |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 06 July 2000 - 03:16 pm | | Hello Carl !
Is ' Juwes ' a Masonic word ? I remember we had a long discussion about this a few months ago , about whether the word had ever been used by Freemasons or not ? As a master mason you are in a unique position to answer this question : what is your own personal understanding of the matter ?
For myself , I want to ask an even more perplexing question...
Was Lord Randolph Churchill a Freemason or not ?
Grand Lodge denied that he was , but his name appears as a Freemason in Pick and Knight's ' The Pocket History of Freemasonry ' , London , 1983. Now Pick and Knight were very eminent Freemasons and were unlikely to make a mistake about this , thus we have a major discrepancy here. Any clarification would be most welcome !
I agree with you that the Freemasons as a body would not be involved in the Ripper murders , but one cannot discount a ' rogue elephant ' being involved , especially if he were suffering from GPI brought on by syphilis. If one of their own were to have been found by the Freemasons to have committed the crimes , would they have erased his name from all records to prevent any disgrace being cast upon their organisation if the truth became known ? |
Author: David M. Radka
Thursday, 06 July 2000 - 06:02 pm | | Carl,
I've been a master mason for 25 years, and, believe me, there exist some masons I wouldn't give you two cents for. I've known crooked, back-stabbing, double-dealing, truly evil men who were masons. People who use the fraternity the same way Jack the Ripper used Whitechapel. You can't judge the book by its cover.
David |
Author: Diana
Friday, 07 July 2000 - 07:34 am | | | I have just read The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule. She worked at a crisis hotline with Ted Bundy for some time and became very good friends with him. He had her utterly fooled. She thought he was a caring, sensitive, kind man. |
Author: Carl Dodd
Monday, 10 July 2000 - 01:11 pm | | I'm going to take these messages out of order...
David, I agree there are some people out of every organization who can not be trusted or liked. With the masons, the number of people like that is extremely low, especially here in the U.S. lodges. There are checks which are used to make sure that a masonic candidate is of a good character. Back in the 1800's becoming a mason was much harder than it is now. The system of checks in those days were more intense on a local level. In those days it didn't take much to keep a man from becoming a mason. My maternal grandfather was a man who became a mason in about 1900 or so. He and I had a long talk about the masons. What he told me about the masons from when he joined leads me to believe that the entry standards in those days were much more strict. As such, JTR was probably not involved, directly or indirectly, with the masons.
Diana, be careful of Ann Rule. If you trace her back to some of her earlier works and posted information on her, you'll find that some information claims that she was "a police officer" at one time. Research indicates that she was technically a police officer.... for the traffic enforcement division of a city. In other words, she was a meter maid. I'd take anything she says with a grain of salt....
Simon, you've asked if a lodge would erase the name of a man if he had been found to be JTR. I don't quite see that happening. I think that the lodge would scratch out a name but I don't that they would 'erase' it. In other words, he would have been officially banned and his name still visible so that the members of his lodge would know that he had done something wrong or evil. I think that a lodge would do it this way so that there would be a sort of protection for its active members. Juewes or Juwes is NOT a masonic word. That has been explained time and again by different and higher placed masons. Was Churchill a freemason? I don't know for sure. I think he was IF my memory is right. Could there have been an error in the masonic rolls? Yes, there could have been an error. When people go to transfer names from one roll to another, for reference purposes or whatever, sometimes a man's name will get skipped by accident. Where some confusion comes into play with masonic rolls can be based on when and where a man joins a masonic lodge. If Churchill joined a lodge when he was overseas, then the lodges in London might not know that he was a mason until many years later. Churchill may have opted to stay with his original lodge, the overseas lodge, by mail rather than join one in London. This is not unusual for any fraternal group. I belong to a paratrooper group which served in Viet Nam. The group of paratroopers has people all over the world. We have guys from the U.S. who belong to one of our Australian chapters. We have a couple of Australians who belong to a couple of U.S. chapters. I would suspect that the same thing happens with most groups. |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 10 July 2000 - 10:22 pm | | Hi all:
The June 2000 Ripperologist has some interesting information gleaned from the April 1, 2000 presentation at the Cloak and Dagger Club by Dave Peabody of the Masonic Museum of London:
"Mr. Peabody. . . challenged the claim that Sir William Gull was a freemason and related an interesting encounter between Stephen Knight and John Hamil, the then librarian of the Grand Lodge Library, back in 1973. When replying to a paper on 'The Life and Times of Sir Charles Warren, Hamil stated that 'Stephen Knight's thesis is based upon his claim that the main protagonists, the Prime Minister (Lord Salisbury), Warren, Sir James (sic) Anderson. . . and Sir William Gull were all high ranking Freemasons. Knight knew his claim to be false for in 1973 I received a phone call from him in the Grand Lodge Library in which he asked for confirmation of their membership. After a lengthy search I informed him that only Warren had been a Freemason. Regrettably he chose to ignore this answer as it ruined his story. . . .'"
Chris George |
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