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Timing of death
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Medical / Forensic Discussions:
Timing of death
Author: Thomas Ind
Monday, 10 July 2000 - 06:23 pm |        | I have just stumbled on an excellent web page for those of you interested in the science of the timing of death.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/timedeath.htm
The page also quotes a contemporary study of the time (Niderhom 1872) of 113 corpses. In that study the time to Rigor varied between 2 and 13 hours.
Other good information aswell such as Cadaveric spasm etc etc |
Author: Thomas Ind
Wednesday, 12 July 2000 - 08:51 am | | What time was Mary Jane Kelly murdered?
Now I apologise for quoting from secondary sources but that’s all we amateur ripperologists have time for. I am quoting from three books (The Mamouth Book [MB], The Sugden book [CH], and the A- Z [AZ]). Having stumbled across the web page written by Derrick Pounder http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/timedeath.htm [DP] that I quoted in my previous post I though it interesting to examine it and other sites (http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/academic/FSC/FSC239Y_TIME_OF_DEATH.HTM [UT] & http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures9906/06_truscott.html [TR]). This is in the hope of finding scientific evidence to support a time of death.
From what I understand there are seven possible times when MJK may have died;
| 0100 - 0200 | This is the time period estimated by Dr Bond who examined the body at 14:00 [MB]. It must be noted that Dr Bond admitted to being unsure of the time of death [CH]. | | 0400 | This is when Sarah Lewis and Elizabeth Prater heard a cry of ‘Oh Murder’ [MB]. | | 0500 - 0600 | A time calculated by Sugden as Dr Phillips’s estimate of the time of death based on a report in the Times [CH]. | | 0730 - 0830 | The time estimated in 3 above is based on the time that Phillips arrived at the scene of the crime (1100). He did not examine the body until 1330 so this estimate of Phillips opinion is based from the time of examination and the Times report not the time of arrival at the scene. | | 0830 - 1045 | The time between the first sighting by Caroline Maxwell and the time the body was discovered [AZ, CH, MB]. | | 0900 - 1045 | The time between the second sighting by Caroline Maxwell and the time the body was discovered [AZ, CH, MB]. | | 1000 - 1045 | The time between the sighting by Maurice Lewis and the time the body was discovered [MB]. |
Unfortunately Dr Phillips’s records do not exist so we must rely totally on the opinion of Dr Bond. There seems to be three aspects from Dr Bond’s notes that may help us. The temperature, the state of rigor mortis, and the partly digested food in the stomach.
Temperature
MJK (or the body assumed to be MJK) was cold at the time of examination. Regrettably as three hours existed between the discovery of the body and the first examination little can be gained from this information. Even if the murder took place seconds before discovery there would have been a drop in body temperature of at least 5oC resulting in the body feeling cold. We can therefore add little information from this finding.
Rigor mortis (muscle stiffening)
There appears to be numerous things that affect rigor and I would recommend Derrick Pounder’s web page if anyone be interested. However, it is clear [CH & MB] that when MJKs body was examined by Dr Bond that rigor had commenced but was not complete. Derrick Pounder dismisses an old rule of thumb that rigor commences in 6 hours, takes a further 6 hours to fully establish, remains for 12 hours and passes off during the remaining 12 hours. This ‘rule of thumb’ was mistakenly used by Dr Bond [MB & CH]. Derrick Pounder quotes a series from 1872 (which Dr Bond had clearly not read) dismissing that myth. In the paper by Niderkorn [DP], rigor was complete in 14% of cases at 3 hours, 72% at 6 hours and 90% at 9 hours. Dr Pounder reprints Niderkorns results from which we can make some calculations. Using this data we can ask ourselves what the probability was of rigor being incomplete given the estimated times of death I have listed above. These are summarised below.
| Time | Interval | Probaility | | 0100 – 0200 | 12 - 13 | 0.0 – 2.7% | | 0400 | 10 | 3.6% | | 0500 – 0600 | 8 – 9 | 9.8 – 13.3% | | 0730 – 0830 | 5.5 – 6.5 | 24.4 - 38.0% | | 0830 – 1045 | 3.25 – 5.5 | 38.0 – 86.7% | | 0900 – 1045 | 3.25 - 5 | 46.9 – 86.7% | | 1000 – 1045 | 3.25 - 4 | 59.3 – 100% | |
From this data we can see that the probability of MJK being murdered between 0100 and 0200 or at 0400 are very low indeed. As this data does not take into account other factors such as the onset of rigor the probability rises with later times of the morning being the time of death.
However, with all the assumptions it would be unfair to be so precise and we know that rigor had commenced even if it wasn’t complete. Dr Pounder’s website quotes Camps (yes the same Camps) who states ‘as a general rule corpses can usually be divided into those, still warm, in which no rigor is present, indicating death within about the previous three hours. Those in which rigor is progressing, where death probably occurred between 2 an 9 hours previously; and those in which rigor is fully established, showing that death took place more than 9 hours previously’. Derrick Pounder states that this is an over simplistic rule but by Camps definition the time suggested by Dr Bond and that suggested by Lewis and Prater can be ruled out. Again, the time of death would be more likely to have occurred nearer the time the body was discovered.
Digestion
We have discussed in great detail the fact that that there was partly undigested food in the stomach. As I am aware that in surgery we starve patients for six hour prior to an operation I suggested that the murder must have taken place within the last 6 hours of a meal. Well I’m not that wrong. Regrettably, I was not entirely correct and I cannot be more precise. Furthermore, we do not know when MJK took her last meal. Perhaps it was at 10:00 when Maurice Lewis may have seen her in the Britannia pub?
On one web page [UT] it states that ‘note should be made of the type of stomach contents and the degree of digestion but it is not possible with any scientific accuracy to say anything other than the person died after their last meal.’ Another web page demonstrates how forensic evidence was misused in the case of murder. However, in a similar scenario where there was partly undigested food we can find the following quote, ‘Dr. Charles Sutherland Petty, an expert on pathology connected to Harvard Medical School and Johns Hopkins University, said, after being made aware of the circumstances of the case, that the broad limits he would make as to the time of death would be from 30 minutes to eight hours’ [TR]. So we can safely say that from this data, all of the above times are possible.
Conclusion
“Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation for estimating the time of death (or “duration of the post mortem interval”), and he wisely avoids making dogmatic statement based on an isolated observation” [DP]. So in summary, the evidence available does not rule out any particular time of death. However, it suggests that the earlier times are less likely that the later ones. |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 12 July 2000 - 01:04 pm | | Tom
I have not had the time to look at the web page refered to above (I'm at work) but I had been led to believe that the ambient temperature will effect the onset of Rigor mortise.
It is normal to assume that a warm temperature might delay the effects of Rigor, but as it was explained to me, the exact opposite is true. Cooler temperatures actually slow down the effects of Rigor.
Can you confirm?
Thanks, Jon |
Author: Diana
Wednesday, 12 July 2000 - 01:18 pm | | | I think we established earlier that the low temperature on the day the body was found was 38 degrees Fahrenheit and aside from the fire in the fireplace which I don't think would have done much there was no source of heat. But if you are correct, then Jack struck in the daytime for the very first time. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Wednesday, 12 July 2000 - 01:48 pm | | Jon - Yes numerous things seem to affect rigors which is why I give this range. Even so, by examining the ranges the probability of rigors not being complete at 1400 if the murder took place at 0100 - 0200 is low to zero. Another factor that affect rigors is the degree of activity immediately prior to death.
Cold temperatures it. Vigorous activity hastens it.
Diana - Scientists (american and english) speak in centigrade. Although we use Fahrenheit in the UK as you do in the US I don't understand it. However, in Dr Pounder's article he states that it is exception for Rigors to develop in temperatures below 10oC. |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 12 July 2000 - 07:09 pm | | Tom
Your 4th line above.
Was that....
"Cold Temperatures SLOWS it. Vigorous activity hastens it".
(looking for the missing word)
(what are we playing, sharades?)
:-) |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Thursday, 13 July 2000 - 12:55 am | | Excellent work Tom, you beat me to the punch by starting a "Time of Death" board and you have supported what I have been saying for a while now as regards to time of death for Mary Kelly. Somehow, however, I don't think that you will be attacked for your view as I have been every time I bring the matter up. Time of death is one of my specialties as regards to the Whitechapel Murders, as many here know, and I am hoping that my on going research into this subject will lead to a paper at the next Ripper conference.
I do have a favour to ask of you. If you are interested, take a look at T.O.D. as it relates to the death of Annie Chapman and give me you opinions. I would be very interested in your thoughts.
Wolf. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Thursday, 13 July 2000 - 03:13 am | | Sorry Jon
It refers to the onset of Rigors. I accept that there are many arguments to put MJK in the earler categories based on the surrounding temperature. Indeed Dr Bond used these arguments. However, if we use just basic probability, it is more probable that she died later in the morning on the basis of rigors. I am not saying that it is impossible for her to have been murdered at 0100 - 0200. Indeed it is, however, it is more likely on the Rigor evidence that she was murdered later by my interpretation. I am no expert though.
Wolf OK but later on today. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Thursday, 13 July 2000 - 04:37 am | | Timing of Chapman's Death
Chronological evidence
7/9/1888
17:00 - Seen by Amelia Palmer in Dorset Street
8/9/1888
00:12 - Seen by William William Stevens in Kitchen of Crossingham’s lodging house.
01:35 - Seen by John Evans and Timothy Donovan
03:30 - Mr Thompson left for work and heard and saw nothing
04:40 to 04:45 - John Richardson stopped at yard
05:30 - Elizabeth Long (Mrs Darrell) sees someonr she later identifies as Annie Chapman
05:15 to 05:32 - Albert Cadosch hears a voice emanating from the back yard and something falling against the intervening palings
05:45 to 06:00 -Annie Chapman’s body is found by John Davis
06:30 - Dr Phillips arrives and estimates that murdered at least 2 hours.
Post mortem evidence
The only evidence I can see from the examination is that limb stiffening (rigor) had commenced. From this we can deduce that the estimate of the time of death was based solely on the basis of rigor which we have previously agreed is a very inexact science.
As with my details on MJK, as rigor was incomplete, then the probability is that the murder took place at a shorter interval from examination rather than a longer one. That is all we can conclude and nothing else. Is it possible that the murder took place at least before 04:30? Yes. Is it possible that it took place after 05:32? Yes.
Dr Phillips conclusions (if based purely on rigor) are an utter nonsense. It appears that he makes his remarks on the basis that rigor had commenced and in a misheld believe that rigor would not commence within 2 hours of the time of death. However, we already know from Niderkorn’s data that is published in Derrick Pounder’s web page that rigor can even be complete at 2 hours. If you surf the web, you will find that in the unreferenced web pages there is a general concensus that rigor commences at 3 – 4 hours post mortem. However, in the web pages that are referenced there is agreement that it can occur shortly after death. For example, in a site http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/env-23.htm a pathologist states “30 minutes... I can already see lividity on a light-skinned person. Rigor may be present.”
The other factor that Dr Phillips did not consider is Cadaveric Spasm. To quote from the web page above “"Cadaveric spasm" is instantaneous rigor, seen when death occurs with considerable muscular exertion (gripping something, as a branch in someone falling down a mountain) and/or major motor seizure and/or emotion (battlefield, torture).” Dr Pounder in his web page states “It’s cause is unknown but it is usually associated with violent deaths in circumstances of intense emotion”. Cadaveric spasm “….may affect all the muscles of the body but it most commonly involves groups of muscles only, such as the muscles of the forearms and hands”. In Annie Chapman’s case it was the legs. This is likely to be Cadaveric spasm as rigor usually commenses in the muscles of the extremeties such as the fingers rather than limbs.
Conclusion
Dr Phillips evidence of a murder at least 2 hours prior to examination is unreliable and a total nonsense. It should be dismissed as baseless and the evidence of the witnesses in this case seem more reliable. |
Author: Jon
Thursday, 13 July 2000 - 12:30 pm | | Tom
Thanks for the clarification, re: MJK T.o.D.
I have no opinion either way, so any help is greatly appreciated.
Re: Annie Chapman & the Cadaveric spasm.......
Could a strangulation attack prompt such a spasm?
Thanks, Jon |
Author: Thomas Ind
Thursday, 13 July 2000 - 06:25 pm | | Jon
I am no expert here. All I have done is read an article (a number of articles) that anyone could have read. However, my interpretation of the articles is YES. |
Author: Diana
Thursday, 13 July 2000 - 11:03 pm | | | Having seen your TOD data for MJK, I went back to look at the eyewitness evidence. At 3:00 AM George Hutchinson leaves. One assumes that if Mary had been killed with him there he would have known it. Mary is not seen again until Caroline Maxwell sees her at 8:00 and she is throwing up. Suppose Mary has gone back to her room and found the remains of the unfortunate Bridget. Under the circumstances vomiting would be completely understandable. She burns all of Bridget's things so the police will think it is her and runs. |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Friday, 14 July 2000 - 12:38 am | | Hello Tom and Jon. Tom thank you for your opinions on time of death for Annie Chapman. They are much appreciated. I fully understand that this is not your area of expertise but I have a couple of things for you to think about.
There is no clear consensus among pathologists that cadaveric spasm even exists. There is some thought that "cadaveric spasm" is merely the quick onset of rigor but either way it is extremely rare and and is characterized, in the majority of cases, by the hand (fingers) holding some object firmly. It doesn't apply in the case of Annie Chapman, (one pathologist that I talked to wondered why I would even bring it up.)
Tom, Rigor mortis can become complete in under 2 hours, in rare cases and only if the conditions are right. However, these conditions were not present in the death of Annie Chapman. Rigor usually, but not always, commences in about 2 hours after death, (as I was told time and again.)
Dr. Philips's finding of death 2 or more hours before he examined the body at 6:30 am. was supported by the Lancet however both Dr. Phillips and the Lancet added the caveat that perhaps the coolness of the morning air may have skewed the findings. This seems to point to a time of death based on body temperature as well as the onset of rigor. You have failed to take into account Dr. Phillips's observation that the body was "cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines, in the body." That's an incredibly fast change in body temperature in 45 minutes. Also, as you have pointed out, cold temperatures delay the onset of rigor yet we are led to believe that rigor was somehow sped up.
One thing that I have learned in my study of time of death is that the two of us could be senior Forensic Pathologists with years of experience between us and still not agree on any of the points surrounding the deaths of Mary Kelly and Annie Chapman. As one Forensic Pathologist, now retired but still teaching, told me, "even experienced specialists can make errors of 2-4 hours in the first 24 hours after the moment of death so the term ‘estimation' of the time of death is used rather than ‘determination' of the time of death."
Wolf. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Friday, 14 July 2000 - 07:25 am | | Wolf, I think that you have hit the nail on the head.
What I wasn't trying to do was propose a new time of death. Yes, cold delays rigors. Violent deaths accelerate it. Your interpretation of Annie Chapman is different to mine. My interpretation is that the unexposed area was warm and therefore cooling had not properly occured. Either way it is academic. What I am trying to point out is that the TODs given by the doctors are meaningless. In MJKs case it should not act against the evidence given by Maxwell and in AC case it should not make us assume that Elizabeth Long was wrong. NOTHING CAN BE INTERPRETED FROM THE EVIDENCE GIVEN. Therefore it should be dismissed and other evidence taken into account such as that of the witnesses. |
Author: mark.coldwell
Friday, 14 July 2000 - 04:47 pm | | hi all,
to help back up wolfs earlier post of an unusually rapid rigor mortis rather than cadaveric spasm being responsible for dr phillips views of the chapman time of death, let me quote you the following"in individuals who have been exhausted or starved before death,the glycogen stores in muscles are low,so that rigor may develop rapidly"ref forensic medicine,a guide to principles 1988.
i think that its widely known that chapman was very ill and exhausted days before she was killed this is backed up at the inquest by amelia palmer who said quote"on tuesday afternoon i saw chapman again near spittafields church,she said she felt no better and that she should go into the casual ward for a day or two,i remarked that she looked very pale and asked if she had had anything to eat.she replied ,no i have not had a cup of tea today"again amelia saw her again this time on friday afternoon " i feel too ill to do anything"chapman remarked.
dr phillips remarked at the post mortam that there were signs of disease and deprevation.all of this evidence could add up to a very rapid rigor which dr phillips commented on at the crime scene,so perhaps this could explain why dr phillips felt rigor mortis commencing(this is only my unprofesional opinion)and explain/justify a later time of death,which would fit in with some of the witness statements. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Friday, 14 July 2000 - 06:17 pm | | Mark
Good point
It all goes to show that on the evidence available, scientific estimate of death cannot be ACCURATELY given |
Author: Bob Hinton
Sunday, 24 November 2002 - 06:54 pm | | Dear Everyone,
There is a new book out by Jessica Snyder Sachs entitled 'Time of Death' the contents of which will come as quite a surprise to a lot of us.
She mentions the phenomina of the 'heat spike'. This occurs where the victim has suffered a blow to the head or strangulation. This disrupts the neural thermal control and actually causes the temperature of a corpse to rise!
This casts grave doubt on the doctor feeling the body of a corpse and stating it had just died because it is still warm. I'm thinking here particularly of Nichols and Stride.
The message is - forget trying to establish time of death using, rigor mortis, algor mortis or lividity, temperature of the body, pottassium content of the eyeball, state of digestion and decomposition. It seems that most pathologists now say time of death is between when the victim was last seen alive and when the body is discovered.
However new research into entomology and other related subjects do hold out some hope of cracking the problem.
A must read book for all interested parties.
Bob Hinton |
Author: Julian Rosenthal
Sunday, 24 November 2002 - 11:14 pm | | G'day Bob, Good to see you're still posting.
Just out of interest I'd like to know why you're suggesting giving up using rigor mortis etc as tools to try and estimate the time of death. Is this knew knowledge rendering older methods obselete?
I'll be looking forwared to having a read of this new book when it comes out as I've just spent the last 4 weeks researching and writing about the time of Kelly's murder by using these methods.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Best wishes
Jules |
Author: Ky
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 01:17 am | | I know this is probably an ignorant question, but was *touch* the only method used to fix time of death in the victorian era? Also, was there any method to differentiate human from animal blood?
thanks, Ky |
Author: Bob Hinton
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 03:46 am | | Dear Both,
No touch wasn't the only method used but it was particularly relevant in the two cases I have mentioned. I believe the first chap to find Nichols said he touched her and she felt warm. The Doctor who first examined Stride also said the same thing about Stride.
Jules, well to summarise I was rather pleased to see that my own beliefs about rigor had been supported by this book. The point she is making is this. Rigor mortis is a result of a chemical reaction, and there are hundreds of things that can effect it, such as air temperature, body temperature, insulation of body, age of body, state of physical health of body, how victim died, what victim was doing just before death and so on and so on.
I have heard people on these boards assert that rigor doesn't start until at least two hours after death, yet have seen personally the first signs after an hour.
I think she says that rigor can be a reasonably good indicator give or take 10 or twelve hours. Which kind of puts the cap on trying to fix MJK's death at 4.36am or something like.
Bob |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 08:52 am | | Strict care needs to be taken in working with time of death. Establishing time of death and fixing time of death are horses of different colors. The TOTALITY of the crime scene needs to be taken into consideration. This includes personal history data, last know movements, witness statements, time of day and year the body was found, area the body was found, state of the body, manner (or suspected manner) of death, whether the body was moved, etc. None of the time of death factors should be taken into account on their own merit, although the potassium content of the eye is considered the most accurate indicator, especially if the eyes are open. Of the three mortises, rigor is usually considered the more accurate, and algor is considered the least accurate due to it being effected more by external as well as internal factors. Time of death can be established rather quickly, but fixing time of death can take days or weeks. Establishing time of death, gives detectives a time window in which to operate, fixing time of death narrows that window opening.
For example, at any death scene the medical examiner’s investigator will insert a rectal thermometer and record the body temperature. He/she will then record the ambient air temperature and may establish time of death BUT the decedent’s medical files will also be examined to obtain an average of the person’s known body temperature- not all people have a core temperature of 98.6 f . The files will also be checked for any illnesses as that will effect body temperature. If the death is deemed suspicious the autopsy will be ordered and any possible illnesses can also be determined. Only after all medico-legal information is gathered , and the medical examiner has met with the investigating detectives will time of death be fixed.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Diana
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 11:19 am | | | I have started to wonder (not that this applies to any of our JTR corpses that we know of) if a person had a raging fever (say 104 Fahrenheit) and then they were killed, wouldn't that throw everything off? |
Author: Bob Hinton
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 01:22 pm | | Dear Everyone,
I'm afraid that notwithstanding what Scott has written establishing time of death is practically impossible with any degree of accuracy.
He mentions the potassium content of the eye as being one of the most accurate. Unfortunately experience has shown this to be far from the truth.
It has been established that the results from the two eyes of the same victim have given wildly differing time frames. Also the readings are thrown hopelessly off by the depth the needle is inserted into the eyeball.
This is one reason why this method was not used during the O J Simpson case, a fact that the defence team leapt on trying to show that it proved incompetence.
Time of death is not now 'fixed', instead a wide time frame is given as the most likely time of death. Miss Sachs quotes one case of a highly experienced professional called to the scene of a crime. Asked to give a rough estimate of TOD of the body he gave a time frame of two to ten hours.
After further examination back at the morgue he sheepishly rang the police with the information that his original estimate was 113 years out!
The only reliable indicators now seem to be entymylogical.
all the best
Bob |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 02:27 pm | | Hi Bob,
Actually entymylogical examinations have questionable reliability. In a notorious murder case here in San Diego that received national exposure, the defense tried to prove that a defendant could not have committed the crime based on entymology.
The so-called "bug defense" failed. It was pointed out that such readings depend on weather (which can vary from mile to mile), the conditions of the area (in some cases they change), and the condition of the body (was it wrapped?).
I think one of the great errors in murder cases is when the authorities look to time of death as a definitive portion of the case - it is really no more than an estimation.
Rich |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 03:44 pm | | Yes, Diana a fever would throw time of death off if only algor mortis is used. That is why I stated that the TOTALITY of the crime scene must be taken into account. If one relies strictly on rigor mortis, algor mortis, livor mortis, potassium taken from the eye, entymylogical findings,etc., the time of death is not accurate.
It takes skillful detective work, sound forensic science and communication between detectives and the medical examiners to determine time of death.
For example, I remember a homicide I worked where the victim was found at 4:00 pm on a Friday. The arms and legs of the victim were locked in full rigor and the body temperature was 97 degrees F. The ambient temperature was 98 degrees F. and the heat index was 115 degrees F. The eyes and facial muscles did not show the slightest sign of rigor mortis. The medical examiner determined that time of death was anywhere between 1 and 6 hours. Police teams searched the area and found the victim’s school bag in a garbage dumpster. The victim’s class schedule and personal day planner were in the school bag. The victim was a Tulane Architecture Major and it was finals for the spring semester.The class schedule showed that he had a World History Exam at 10:30 and his next exam was introduction to Architectural Design at 3:30. His day planner showed a hair appointment at 2:15. We contacted Tulane University and found that he did in fact attend the 10:30 am class, but missed the 3:30 pm class. The hair salon stated he did in fact make his appointment and left at 2:45. this was evident by the freshly cut hair found on the nape of his neck and on his collar. The bus schedule runs on the ½ hour so he missed the 2:30 bus by 15 minutes. We determined it was a ten minute, fast paced, walk from the hair salon to the crime scene, and it was a 25 minute fast paced walk back to the University from the salon. It seemed odd that an Architecture Major would miss a final exam in his chosen discipline. So we placed time of death between 2:45 pm and 4:00 pm. Police dispatch records had shown a shots fired call coming in from that area at 3:15 pm., and the caller stating they had heard two shots fired. Uniform patrol initially reported finding nothing. Since the victim died from two gunshot wounds to the chest, time of death was fixed at 3:15 pm. and fingerprint evidence led us to the killer, Gerard “Pookie” Georgetown, and Pookie led us to the point in the river he discarded the .38. The .38 was recovered and matched the bullets retrieved from the victim.
So, why was the victim’s legs and arms locked in full rigor?
Most people would think that the 115 degree F. heat index explains that, but not so. Since rigor first shows signs in the small muscle groups and since rigor is effected by heat, the small muscles of the face would have been affected first. The reason for the quick onset is due to the physical activity of the victim prior to death. The fast paced walk of the victim and the carrying of the book bag would cause extreme exertion on the limbs of the arm and legs and the shoulders. Since rigor is heavily effected by anti-mortem physical activity the limbs were the first to show.
Like I said, the TOTALITY of the crime scene must be taken into account.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Bob Hinton
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 05:19 pm | | Dear Everyone,
Scott has just given a perfect example of how difficult it is to fix time of death just by using one factor ie rigor mortis. A very interesting case.
As far as bugs are concerned I quite agree there are hundreds of factors to be taken into account. The present research is extremely detailed, even going in to the fact that some bugs coming along later eat the larvae of the bugs that were there first!
all the best
Bob |
Author: Julian Rosenthal
Monday, 25 November 2002 - 11:34 pm | | G'day Scott, Bob, everyone.
Totally in agreement with you Scott about the contraction of the smaller muscles first then the larger ones. Also agree with your comments Bob that there are other indicators to take into consideration when using rigor as a tool to try and establish the time of death.
However, as I was looking at the photo of Kelly (and bearing these thoughts in mind) I noticed that the fingers of her LEFT hand also appear to be contracted, something which Bond doesn't mention in his autopsy.
Just as an aside it's interesting to see that Jack took the time to cut Kelly's breasts off then replace her chamois.
Best wishes
Jules |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 26 November 2002 - 05:17 pm | | The contracted fingers on Kelly's hand could be two different things. First is cadaveric spasms. Which some people claim doesn't exist. To that I can only say that I have seen it many times and the crime scene photos of Nicole Simpson clearly show the spasms. Even the medical examiner and Det. Vannatter site the appearance of the spasms.
The second possibility is the natural sign of rigor mortis. Though rigor mortis will not appear as clinched fist, shortening of the fingers and toes are normal.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Bob Hinton
Wednesday, 27 November 2002 - 01:36 am | | Dear Julian,
Replace her chamois! Oh my God you've just opened up an entirely new line of investigation. A chamois is a large antelope like animal found in the rocky alps of central Europe.
Does this mean she had recently travelled to Europe possibly the French Alps?
Away to our Baedeckers, fetch my cape, my pipe, my trusty service revolver and of course my deerstalker (do they make antelope stalkers?) I feel a detection coming on.
Oh hang on...do you mean her chemise?
Julian I do hope you will forgive me for that. I certainly am not trying to poke fun at you just the situation ( after all who of us have not suffered the attack of Mrs Malaprop at some time) Your words just conjured up this bizarre vision of Jack trying to slice and dice while shooing away a frisky critter bounding from matlepiece to bed and back!! I just couldn't resist it.
I'll go to my room now!
all the best
Bob |
Author: Julian Rosenthal
Thursday, 05 December 2002 - 08:56 pm | | LOL, Cheers Bob, good to see you've still got a great sense of humour.
Now to business: WARNING - LONG POST.
Having at last had time to read these posts in full (apart from the few last ones) I now find myself drowning in an avalanche of information.
In regard to the 'Ripper' killings and in particular Mary Kelly's ToD we are fortunate enough to have information which gives us a time frame to work with.
Unless Hutchinson and Lewis were in collaboration with each other (for what ever reason) we can safely say that Kelly was alive at 2.30am having been seen by both of them (and Hutchinsons presence probably witnessed by Lewis). We could almost take this one step further and say she was alive around 3.30/4.00am as between these times both Prater and Lewis heard a cry of 'Murder' coming from the direction of Kelly's roon.
Personally I'm inclined to believe them, but just in chance they had a chance to talk to each other and one of them said "Oh, I heard that too" we should discount their testimonies.
The next definitive sighting is by Boywer at 10.45 when he finds her body. (Poor bastard).
This puts the time of death between 2.30 and 10.45am giving an estimated death time of at least 4hrs till when Bond begins his autopsy.
To go another step further and 'disect' Bonds' autopsy report, he states that at 2.00pm Kelly's body was coldand experiencing signs of rigor which became more pronounced as he was performing the autopsy.
As has already been pointed out in other posts, ALL external factors must be taken into consideration ie: room temp, outside temp, last meal, size of victim, yadda, yadda, yadda. However, in the caser of Kelly there is probably onlyone of thesefactorswhich bear any significance, that being the external temperature of the night which we know to be 38%F (3%C) or in laymans terms, 'bloody cold'.
As has also been established, cold temperatures assist with the retardation ofrigor. What is also known is that sunriseon the 9th Nov (the coldest time of the day) occured at 7.07am effectively delaying the onset of rigor and slowing the processsomewhat.This scenario would appear to coincide with Bonds findings ie: rigo wasstill in progress during his examination.
Forget about shock or trauma as being an initiating factor in Kelly's rigor, she was drunk (by all accounts) and probably insensate at the time she was murdered.
There is nothing to indicate Kelly was malnurished to the extent which would interfere with the rigor process nor is there any evidence to suggest she was suffering from any illness.
These then are the facts of the matter and in my haste no doubt to post this missive I've neglected to include other relevent information which will come to me as soon as I leave.
Forget also the testimonies of Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell as the chances of them being the only two people amongst a multitude of thousands on the streets that morning defies belief. Of course there are other reasons which I will post if asked nicely:-)
Forget about entymylogical examinations, potassium content of the eyeballs and looking into them to see if the image of her murderer remained there. Let's just stick with what we know as factual and not get sidetracked into building a pursuasive argument built on 20th technology.
Before I depart: Mary Ann Cox testified she saw Kelly with abloke at 11.45pm 8th Nov. The bloke hastily enters Kelly's room and Kellyfollowsbut not before saying to Cox "Goodnight, I'm going to have a song" and launching into arendition of 'A violet I plucked from my mothers grave'.
Whoever said Kelly was a prostitute waswrong. Her punters paid her to sing to them!
Thanks for your forebearance.
Jules |
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